Aqualink communication issue

[rockaway99]

Well, here's a real headscratcher:
Equipment for Pool/Spa spillover combo
Aqualink One-Touch RS8
Pentair Intellipro VSF pump
Pentair Ultratemp heat pump
Solar
A week ago, the heater kept clicking off in mid-cycle - that was the first indication of a problem as no error codes came on.
Then, I noticed that the (then older) pump, a 10 y/o Intellipro VS-3050 was mysteriously going on and off and increasingly failing to come back on. That explained the Heat Pump going off - the pump was causing it.
We replaced the pump with a new one and the pump ran, but still experiences intermittent outages. The Heat Pump was diagnosed and cleared today. Both components do function as designed but the system is failing to consistently run the pump.
So it's down to the Aqualink. Zodiac is apparently closed this week as there is no answer on the phone for a service check.
Today, after the tech ran the Heat Pump check, the Spa ran to the desired temp, then the pool ran - all good.
But I then switched back to the Spa mode for a dip and the pump would not come on again. I tricked the system by reverting back to Pool Mode and isolating the Spa so it would heat and keep the family peace - so again, the pump and heat pump do work.
Any idea what is causing the system to not properly control the pump? I did reprogram the speeds for Pool/Spa regular, Pool/Spa solar heating, and Spa only mode - three speeds as the system operated well with for 10 years prior to this occurrence.
To summarize, all signs point to a communication problem between the Aqualink and the pump. What would cause this?
I should add that the One Touch display identifies the Intellipro pump, but lists it as "Offline". When the problem occurs, no voltage is reaching the main pump, but other components controlled by the Aqualink do function.
Any ideas are welcome - I am very familiar with the equipment and adept enough to diagnosis it. But this one is quite perplexing.
Thank you and Best wishes for a Happy New Year.

 

[ajw22]

How is your Intellipro pump wired to the Aqualink?

Is the IntelliPro pump getting constant power or wired to the filter/pump relay?

Does the IntelliPro have a RS-485 connection to the AQualink?

How is the UltraTemp HP controlled by the Aqualink? 2 wire wiremans switch or RS-485?

I tricked the system by reverting back to Pool Mode and isolating the Spa

What exactly did you do?

 

[rockaway99]

Thank you for your response.
The "HELP" diagnose on the RS8 display indicates a RS485 error - standard for the communication hook-up.
The odd thing about all of this is that the pump will run, usually for a few minutes, sometimes for a few hours, and sometimes not at all.
Today, it went on for about two minutes at the normal star-up time and then quit.
The indications at the Aqualink display show the pump on, but also show it as "Offline".
It is indeed wired to the relay in the Aqualink box.
As far as the "tricking" is concerned, I simply manually changes the valves to isolate the spa during one of those times whem the pump was running. There was no electrical adjustments there.
And yes, there is a 485 cable connected.
I should also note that the other equipment hooked up to the Aqualink on other relays, such as a water feature pump, does work fine.

 

[ajw22]

How devices do you have connected to the RS485 bus?

Are they all connected at the same point?

I would disconnect all RS-485 devices except for the pump and see if the pump runs normally and if it still shows offline.

You may have an RS-485 bus imbalance problem with multiple devices.

 

[PoolGate]

Zodiac specifies no more than 2 devices for each RS485 plug. Do you have the multiplex extension board? Have you ever gone into the Aqualink cabinet? The first thing the tech should have done was to re-seat each RS485 connection.

 

[rockaway99]

Thanks, guys.
The pump has its' own RS485 plug, and I do have a multiplex extension board installed. I did check each plug - all seems OK there.
Other RS485 feeds include temp sensors for the Solar and the Heat Pump, but nothing is doubled up - every feed has its' own plug.
The Help desk will reopen tomorrow at Fluidra; in the meantime, hopefully I can coax a few hours run time to turn over the pool. Yesterday I got about 4 hours in, today about three. Very bizarre problem.

 

[ajw22]

Other RS485 feeds include temp sensors for the Solar and the Heat Pump, ...

I don't think temperature sensors go on the RS-485 bus.

 

[PoolGate]

I don't think temperature sensors go on the RS-485 bus.

This is correct. Make sure you are looking at the right thing. You have to remove the top section of the box to get access to the RS485 ports. Here is a pic of my multiplex board. Just for fun, I would swap out one of your RS485 connections with another. See if the problem with the pump goes away (and appears with the other device).

 

[rockaway99]

Thank you again for your responses.
All the wiring is correct - to clarify, the temp sensors are actually in the 10 terminal bar on the right side of the unit.
All connections have been examined - no loose ends.
I just spoke with Aqualink Help Desk as they have re-opened now. The tech checked my system remotely - all settings were OK.
BUT! He did say that the iAqualink system is only compatible with IntelliFLO pumps, not IntelliPRO pumps.
Now this doesn't explain why the old pump, an IntelliPRO VS-3050 worked for 10 years, or why the replacement pump will intermittently function.
I've scheduled another onsite tech visit with the pump installer and a alleged Jandy "whiz" for another look/see.
In the meantime, the pool is not running - ugh!

 

[PoolGate]

This is what Jandy supports as native VSP. It is possible there are some minor changes to the pump that make it not really work anymore. Personally, I would have just gotten a Jandy pump. Is it too late to send it back?

 

[ajw22]

From Jandy Aqualink RS - Further Reading

Controlling Pentair Intelliflo Pumps
Jandy Aqualink Installation Manual section 3.2.7 describes how to connect a Pentair Intelliflo pump to the Aqualink.

While the Aqualink RS can control an Intelliflo VS pump it cannot control the VF functions of a VSF pump.

At one time Jandy's F/W was made to talk with the IntelliFlo VS. Then Pentair developed a new pump that was both a VS and VF pump, the VSF. Jandy's F/W has never been updated to drive the VF portion of the VSF pump.

Speculation is several years ago the Big Three (Hayward, Jandy and Pentair) decided to share their RS-485 code, so that they could control each others equipment. Not sure why that did not continue, but as time went on, the firmware running all these systems has changed, but the Big Three no longer keep this interchangeabilty in mind when they update their firmware.

This is the main reason that we always recommend the same brand for products that need to "talk" to each other. It just makes things easier for installation and warranty issue.

 

[rockaway99]

Thanks again - I get all that, but why after ten years would this disconnect suddenly occur? And why would the new pump, albeit a Pentair IntelliPro, work intermittently and be able to be successfully speed programmed through the AQ? That's what seems odd to me.
I do agree that the same brand connections are wise, but I've had several issues with Zodiac/Fluidra tech products over the years and just didn't want to take my chances with another. Also, the plumbing footprint left little room for a re-plumb. I thought since the older pump was unioned in, it would make sense to keep the same footprint.
So now I have the original pool build co. coming over on Monday to diagnose the AQ - I'll go from there. If I can't get the pump swapped out, it looks like I'll be having a new Pentair Intellitouch system installed. Ouch, but this problem has to end some way!
That all said, I greatly appreciate your responses. This board is a tremendous help and your thoughtful, informed responses are a credit to the pool industry community.

 

[rockaway99]

Another fun fact today.
After unsuccessfully trying to get the pump to turn on yesterday, this AM I figured I try the Spa Mode from the One Touch portal - basically for grins and giggles at this point. Voila! On it goes!
So I simply closed off the spa drain and it's now drawing from the pool and flowing into the spa (and spilling over to back to the pool).
I should add that it's at the correct programmed RPM's for the spa as well.
Crazy, but at least the pool is getting filtered and chlorinated today!

 

[PoolGate]

This begs the question, "How are you turning on your pump when it doesn't work?". Can you post the steps and print screens? If you are using a macro, for instance, and the macro changed for some reason, the pump wouldn't work.

 

[rockaway99]

When the pump won't come on with as programmed, sometimes - not always - it will respond if I go to the One Touch display and toggle the on/off. Bear in mind that the One Touch will show the pump as operating as normal until the third screen, which will show the pump as "Offline". Normally, the first screen will show this: As noted, it worked today in Spa Mode as shown blow - these are the current three screens on display.
So, sometimes, the toggling on/off will activate the pump. All other programmed functions (jet pump for the spa, heater, solar, water feature pump) work just fine - no problems at all with those. I should add that I have tried just the Spa before and didn't get any response, so there's that. Also, via the outside controller in Service mode, I get the same results - sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I think you're on to something with the macro issue but I wouldn't know to go with that.

 

[PoolGate]

Have you ever used the web or phone interface? What version is your Aqualink? You should have those features and not have to be reliant on the OneTouch controller.

 

[rockaway99]

Oh, I do. I have the interface on my PC and I've been using the phone (Android) interface for years now.
They are functional.
iAqualink 2.0 - new, updated board put it in about 5 years ago.

 

[rockaway99]

From Jandy Aqualink RS - Further Reading

Controlling Pentair Intelliflo Pumps
Jandy Aqualink Installation Manual section 3.2.7 describes how to connect a Pentair Intelliflo pump to the Aqualink.

While the Aqualink RS can control an Intelliflo VS pump it cannot control the VF functions of a VSF pump.

At one time Jandy's F/W was made to talk with the IntelliFlo VS. Then Pentair developed a new pump that was both a VS and VF pump, the VSF. Jandy's F/W has never been updated to drive the VF portion of the VSF pump.

Speculation is several years ago the Big Three (Hayward, Jandy and Pentair) decided to share their RS-485 code, so that they could control each others equipment. Not sure why that did not continue, but as time went on, the firmware running all these systems has changed, but the Big Three no longer keep this interchangeabilty in mind when they update their firmware.

This is the main reason that we always recommend the same brand for products that need to "talk" to each other. It just makes things easier for installation and warranty issue.

I had interesting interactions with both Fluidra and Pentair regarding this problem.
Fluidra's tech rep, via the phone, told me that the IntelliPRO was not compatible with the Aquallink, only the IntelliFLO!
I thought that was, frankly, nonsense, because the Aqualink does operate the pump, albeit intermittently, and the pump was able to be successfully programmed with the three speeds I use. The display also correctly identifies the speeds when the darn thing does work.
Pentair, for their part, disavows any compatible with any system other than their own - that's their story and they're sticking to it.
The tech rep however, did tell me that there is no technical difference at all between the Intellipro and Intelliflo pumps - they both use the exact same drivers and same electronics. The only difference is the color and the plumbing configuration: almond for Intelliflo, black for the Intellipro. By plumbing I mean the pumps are a bit different in the measurements of intake and outflow ports.
I'm expecting a tech later today to hopefully diagnose the AQ issue - I'll follow-up to this board when the situation changes, but it looks like I'll be installing the Pentair Easy-Touch system at this point.
In related news, I was able to get the system to turn on for about one hour today. This is quite a problem!

 

[PoolGate]

I had interesting interactions with both Fluidra and Pentair regarding this problem.
Fluidra's tech rep, via the phone, told me that the IntelliPRO was not compatible with the Aquallink, only the IntelliFLO!
I thought that was, frankly, nonsense, because the Aqualink does operate the pump, albeit intermittently, and the pump was able to be successfully programmed with the three speeds I use. The display also correctly identifies the speeds when the darn thing does work.
Pentair, for their part, disavows any compatible with any system other than their own - that's their story and they're sticking to it.
The tech rep however, did tell me that there is no technical difference at all between the Intellipro and Intelliflo pumps - they both use the exact same drivers and same electronics. The only difference is the color and the plumbing configuration: almond for Intelliflo, black for the Intellipro. By plumbing I mean the pumps are a bit different in the measurements of intake and outflow ports.
I'm expecting a tech later today to hopefully diagnose the AQ issue - I'll follow-up to this board when the situation changes, but it looks like I'll be installing the Pentair Easy-Touch system at this point.
In related news, I was able to get the system to turn on for about one hour today. This is quite a problem!

You cannot expect Zodiac to support a product that officially is not compatible with their product. They have 2 pumps that they support (listed above). I would not expect them to help troubleshoot any other pump regardless of if this ever worked before.

 

[rockaway99]

Well, after three weeks of trying just about everything, I had the original pool builder's tech come out yesterday and (fingers firmly crossed) I think he may have found the culprit - a faulty relay. He first changed the wires from 2 & 4 to 1 & 3 on the relay, explaining that the VSP needs a constant power feed. He then noticed that 2 & 4 (where the salt generator was) was dead. So he changed out the relay - everything is working again on the programmed schedule.
I was about to scrap the Aqualink entirely and have an EasyTouch system put in. Naturally, I saved a ton here thanks to a good tech.
Thanks once again for all the help here!