AOP, Tab Feeder and Pool Tiger are out! New SWCG is in!

[dailygenesis]

I think I have to learn more about pool plumbing, that's what I think!

Pages 2 and 3:

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/pumps/hydroboost/hydroboost-booster-install-guide.pdf

agrees with 1poolman1, though it doesn't explain why. Sounds like you two figured it out. My bad.

I had it right for plumbing with and without heater, but not when a spa is involved. It mentions keeping the booster feed 3' away from the heater, so that is a concern. The manual doesn't mention the SWG, but I think I'm right about that, too. An SWG is supposed to be last in the chain, so that the super-chlorinated water goes directly to the pool, and not through anything else. I guess there is no choice when there is a spa involved.

I think wherever the tap is, you have to protect one thing or another with the automation. No matter how it's plumbed, you can't run the spa and the vac at the same time. I don't have any stats on what happens running an active SWG through a booster, but I don't imagine doing so is good for it. Perhaps you can program around that, too. Run your vac cycle each night when no one is likely using the pool or spa, when you're not running SWG or heating your pool. I run mine at 4:30am, when there is no solar heater or SWG action. That is for reasons of safety and vac performance (neither of which apply to a pressure-side vacs, but something you'll have to contend with if you ever switch to a suction-side vac). It is also something to think through if you're still considering the 24/7 club.

Thanks for the lesson everybody!

Here's the installation manual for the polaris booster pump that I have -> https://www.hydropool.com/downloads/polaris/PB4-60Manual.pdf

It too mentions three feet downstream of the heater (which I think I actually meet, or very close to it), and it also mentions being upstream from and higher level than a chlorinator (the chlorinator it pictures is like a tab feeder -- which is what I had in that spot before -- I'm not sure if the same would apply for SWG). But that said, the plumbing options they show in their diagram show exactly the way my system is plumbed (option 3) as a suitable option and the return lines are going into the ground right after the return line is tapped so I'm not sure how they envision plumbing in a chlorinator underground, etc.

But anyway, it is clear there is not a perfect solution, at least in my situation without some significant reworking.

 

[1poolman1]

Here's the installation manual for the polaris booster pump that I have -> https://www.hydropool.com/downloads/polaris/PB4-60Manual.pdf

It too mentions three feet downstream of the heater (which I think I actually meet, or very close to it), and it also mentions being upstream from and higher level than a chlorinator (the chlorinator it pictures is like a tab feeder -- which is what I had in that spot before -- I'm not sure if the same would apply for SWG). But that said, the plumbing options they show in their diagram show exactly the way my system is plumbed (option 3) as a suitable option and the return lines are going into the ground right after the return line is tapped so I'm not sure how they envision plumbing in a chlorinator underground, etc.

But anyway, it is clear there is not a perfect solution, at least in my situation without some significant reworking.

The way it is done now is correct.
The better way is to use a "T" in place of the 90 going into the ground to the pool with the booster supply plumbed in the horizontal portion of the "T."
With it done that way the booster will always have enough water in it to run at all but extremely-low RPM on a VSP, though I've tried it with a Hayward VSP 2.7 running at 750RPM and it works. If possible, it is always better to plumb the booster-supply in a horizontal pipe vs. a vertical one.

 

[1poolman1]

Can you help me understand that? When what is in use? The spa or the vac? What would cause the spa to drain? There is a check valve no the spa side of the return manifold. Would that make a difference to your warning?

The spa. Water always goes through a booster with the pump running. If plumbed right after the filter, without a valve, water would go to the pool via the cleaner before getting to the heater and then the valve diverting to the spa. Spa would drain in that case.

 

[Dirk]

I'm not sure if the same would apply for SWG

I think the tabs are slightly worse, because they are dissolving into both chlorine and acid (or calcium, depending on the type of tab). The SWG is just chlorine and a little hydrogen gas. Neither is ideal, both are put last in the chain whenever possible.

 

[dailygenesis]

Ok. We got you into SWG club. Now we need to get you into 24/7 club.

Just a little devil's advocate on the 24/7 club...

IF a major determinant of the value of an SWG cell is how much chlorine it can deliver over its lifespan AND IF an SWG cell's lifespan is determined by its hours spent generating (regardless of what percentage), then wouldn't running at a low percentage over more hours drastically reduce the total amount of chlorine the SWG cell could generate over its lifespan?

[ I.E. 24 hours at 25% vs 6 hours at 100% -- same amount of chlorine but four times the number of hours used and, theoretically, four times less chlorine over the lifespan. ]

I could see a response to this being that my second premise is flawed and that the lifespan is determined by chlorine output and not by time spent generating -- so I guess that is my question. Is lifespan tied to hours spent generating and, if so, why would anyone want to minimize the chlorine output over those hours?

 

[Newdude]

I.E. 24 hours at 25% vs 6 hours at 100% -- same amount of chlorine but four times the number of hours used and, theoretically, four times less chlorine over the lifespan. ]

Both are the same. 6 hours 'on' is 6 hours on and there is no difference if it's on for 6 hours straight, or 1 out of every 4 mins for 24 hours.

At the end of the day, 6 hours came off the 10k hour expected lifespan.

 

[dailygenesis]

Both are the same. 6 hours 'on' is 6 hours on and there is no difference if it's on for 6 hours straight, or 1 out of every 4 mins for 24 hours.

At the end of the day, 6 hours came off the 10k hour expected lifespan.

Ah so the way the SWG achieves a % is just by shutting itself off intermittently while running? That makes sense.

 

[Newdude]

Ah so the way the SWG achieves a % is just by shutting itself off intermittently while running? That makes sense.

Many international models vary the voltage to run at half power (etc), but in the end it's all equivalent math just like the US models.

 

[dailygenesis]

Many international models vary the voltage to run at half power (etc), but in the end it's all equivalent math just like the US models.

Gotcha. FYI, since adding the SWG I have joined the 16/7 club. That's longer than I used to run the pump and I've also shifted a lot more time towards lower speeds while trying to figure out how much I need for skimming, etc. I'm exploring the options in my automation system a little more thoroughly and trying to get the pump running more of the time to spread out the chlorination with the SWG. I'm still not sure I see the benefit of stretching that all the way to 24/7 and having it run all night but I definitely like having it running essentially all of the waking hours and just a little beyond. Perhaps I'll feel differently when we get back to the summer months and the days are longer. We shall see!

 

[SoDel]

Gotcha. FYI, since adding the SWG I have joined the 16/7 club. That's longer than I used to run the pump and I've also shifted a lot more time towards lower speeds while trying to figure out how much I need for skimming, etc. I'm exploring the options in my automation system a little more thoroughly and trying to get the pump running more of the time to spread out the chlorination with the SWG. I'm still not sure I see the benefit of stretching that all the way to 24/7 and having it run all night but I definitely like having it running essentially all of the waking hours and just a little beyond. Perhaps I'll feel differently when we get back to the summer months and the days are longer. We shall see!

For me, the wind blows and junk falls in the pool both day and night. The type of debris I get sinks if it sits long enough so a benefit of 24/7 is constant skimming and a cleaner pool. If that doesn’t tend to happen with the type of plant life around your pool, then likely not any benefit to running all night. If it does, try 24/7 and I’d bet you never look back

 

[dailygenesis]

For me, the wind blows and junk falls in the pool both day and night. The type of debris I get sinks if it sits long enough so a benefit of 24/7 is constant skimming and a cleaner pool. If that doesn’t tend to happen with the type of plant life around your pool, then likely not any benefit to running all night. If it does, try 24/7 and I’d bet you never look back

Got it. Yeah we are a new construction house and there is hardly a tree or plant in sight so maybe this is why I'm not feeling as strong a need for it.

 

[dailygenesis]

Another question @Newdude or anyone -- what is the impact of water temperature on SWG chlorine production, if any? PoolMath doesn't include water temp in calculating how much FC will raise for a certain percentage and run time, so is there no impact from water temp?

 

[mknauss]

There is no effect on Chlorine production by temperature, until you reach a low enough temperature that the cell reduces then stops Chlorine production.

 

[dailygenesis]

Is there any reason I should manually shut off the salt cell as water temps approach 50 degrees? Or is it fine to just leave it on and let the cell turn itself on and off as needed due to temperature?

 

[Mdragger88]

Is there any reason I should manually shut off the salt cell as water temps approach 50 degrees? Or is it fine to just leave it on and let the cell turn itself on and off as needed due to temperature?

Most people turn it off because it gets so random & intermittent its hard to anticipate what the fc will be. Easier to just dose manually at that point.
You will also want to protect your plumbing from freezing temps so many put a dummy pipe in instead of risking their cell.
Are you planning on winterizing your pool?

 

[dailygenesis]

Most people turn it off because it gets so random & intermittent its hard to anticipate what the fc will be. Easier to just dose manually at that point.

Makes sense.

You will also want to protect your plumbing from freezing temps so many put a dummy pipe in instead of risking their cell.
Are you planning on winterizing your pool?

I have read differing opinions on using the dummy pipe. We do not winterize the pool but leave it open year round. Is it advisable to use a dummy pipe in this situation?

 

[Mdragger88]

Makes sense.


I have read differing opinions on using the dummy pipe. We do not winterize the pool but leave it open year round. Is it advisable to use a dummy pipe in this situation?

Many don’t but in your location I probably would - they can be had for $30-$60

 

[Newdude]

Is it advisable to use a dummy pipe in this situation?

There's two kinds of people. The lawnmower in the garage kind, and the lawnmower left exactly where they finished mowing out back kind.

I would not leave anything with electronics or an engine outdoors when it won't be used. Outdoor speakers, for example. ** But they're DESIGNED FOR THAT !!!! ** Sure they are. But if I wasn't using them for 6 months, they'd come inside and *maybe* live longer.

I shut my pool down so it doesn't matter that I have a hole in my plumbing (that gets plugged). If I needed to run the pool when the swg wouldn't work, I'd DIY a dummy pipe unless the name one was on sale or reasonably priced. They can be $80 to $170 (looking at YOU Jandy) for two $15 unions and a foot of pipe.

 

[dailygenesis]

Thanks all. I tend to agree. It's a valuable piece, and if it's just going to sit there unused while the pool is running for a few months, seems like safeguarding inside couldn't hurt. I ordered the genuine dummy part for $50 on Amazon. Seems like a worthwhile investment.

Is there anything special I need to do to the cell after I remove it to prepare it for storage, other than let it dry out?

 

[Newdude]

Is there anything special I need to do to the cell after I remove it to prepare it for storage, other than let it dry out?

I rinse the guts well and let it dry out. Rinsing likely isn't needed but it takes a minute so why not ?