Any risk in running pump in 10 degree weather without a heater?

Also, in regards to the water temp being below 32, I came across this post from Chem Geek (another fantastic poster here who really knows what he is talking about):

I think what they mean is if it's a hard freeze that is VERY cold and where the pool water is already very close to freezing, then even circulating the water won't prevent it freezing somewhere in the pipe and that when this happens and a blockage occurs the pump could be damaged. However, in practice this doesn't happen as I describe below.

Freezing in still water occurs because water density is greatest at 4ºC so when the water gets that cold it sinks to the bottom and colder (less dense) water stays on top. So the surface water can get colder than the deeper water and therefore freezes starting from the top. With moving water, the entire body of water needs to get to freezing (0ºC) in order to freeze and that's a lot more heat to remove from such a larger body of water.

However, if the water in the pool is close to freezing and the pipe is not insulated and loses heat faster than the moving water replenishes that heat, then the water can freeze. This would occur first on the inside surface of the pipe near the inlet into the pool and grow in from there. Given usual rather fast water flow rates through pipes and most especially if the pool water was not near freezing in temperature, it would take an extraordinarily low temperature to cause freezing of moving water in the pipe. If you had a 50 foot pipe run with 2" pipe and even a slow 20 GPM, then the water velocity in the pipe would be just under 2 feet per second so the water would have to drop from it's incoming temperature from the pool down to 0ºC and then lose additional heat to freeze in just 25 seconds.

The enthalpy of fusion for water is 143.6 BTU/lb. and in the example above one pound of water which is 27.7 cubic inches would be in 2" pipe a length of 8.25". So the heat loss through the pipe would have to be 17.4 BTU per inch length of pipe and I'll do calculations assuming a 1" long section of water moving through the pipe. Remember also that water right at the pipe's surface is actually not flowing but I'll ignore this thin layer effect. The thermal conductivity of PVC is 0.19 W/(m•K) which with pipe inner diameter of 2.067" and circumference of 6.49" the area of one inch of pipe is 6.49 sq.in. and the pipe wall thickness is 0.154" minimum. So this is 0.19 * 6.49 / 0.154 = 8 W/K which is 0.0042 BTU/sec/ºF (this is per inch of pipe length and we are considering a 1" long section of water moving through the pipe) so over 25 seconds (time for water to flow through 50 feet of pipe) this is 0.11 BTU/ºF so a minimum of 17.4/0.11 = 165ºF temperature difference (i.e. below freezing so -133ºF).

It is far more likely is to see freezing begin at the pool water's surface.

Note that if I were to repeat the calculation for copper pipe that was not insulated and where the water flow was only 1 GPM then Type M copper pipe that I'll assume outside is 3/4" is 0.032" thick and thermal conductivity is 401 W/(m•K) so over the same 50 feet pipe run, 0.811" inner diameter, circumference of 2.55" we have 401 * 2.55 / 0.032 = 32000 W/K which is 17 BTU/sec/ºF. 1 GPM in this pipe is 6.21 feet per second so 50/6.21 = 8 seconds. So we have 17.4 / (17 * 8) = 0.13ºF which is why you have to insulate copper piping significantly to prevent freezing even if you were to run the water, but note that actual freezing never occurs this quickly since I ignored heat movement in the water to form ice and time for ice to form (i.e. an amount of heat that needs to be removed to form ice does not mean it is actually removed that quickly). Basically, as ice forms it limits the heat transfer as ice thermal conductivity is 2.18 W/(m•K) so if I use that then we have (401/2.18) * 0.13 = 24ºF but that's just for 0.032" thick ice so for 0.32" thick it's 240ºF. Or put another way, for a 20ºF below freezing it would take minutes (in practice it's hours). It would seem that running water even through uninsulated copper pipes would prevent them from freezing.

Polyurethane foam has thermal conductivity of 0.03 W/(m•K) and is typically 3/8" thick so is (401 / 0.03) * (3/8) / 0.032 = 150,000 times more insulating than the bare copper pipe so at 1 GPM this is 20,000ºF so insulated pipe with even very slow moving water simply won't freeze. (Someone should double check my calculations since there's a lot going on and I may have made a mistake, but the order of magnitude point is valid)

And with this info, I *think* I would be OK to just let it ride and let the pump keep on running since the water is running pretty quick through the piping.
 
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Also, in regards to the water temp being below 32, I came across this post from Chem Geek (another fantastic poster here who really knows what he is talking about):



And with this info, I *think* I would be OK to just let it ride and let the pump keep on running since the water is running pretty quick through the piping.


So is there a gallons per minute (GPM) we should have...most of the above is over my head! Our water temp is already showing 34 and the real cold isn't even here yet. Right now the pump is running at 2400 RPM and showing 50 gallons a minute. Is that enough?
 
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So is there a gallons per minute (GPM) we should have...most of the above is over my head! Our water temp is already showing 34 and the real cold isn't even here yet. Right now the pump is running at 2400 RPM and showing 50 gallons a minute. Is that enough?

From reading the post from Chem Geek (and largely ignoring the complex way over my head math!) I think you would be OK since 50 GPM is flowing pretty darn fast.
 
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From Pentair:
OPERATING THIS HEATER CONTINUOUSLY AT WATER TEMPERATURE BELOW 68° F. WILL CAUSE HARMFUL
CONDENSATION AND WILL DAMAGE THE HEATER AND VOID THE WARRANTY. Do not use the heater to protect
pools or spas from freezing if the final maintenance temperature desired is below 68° F., as this will cause condensation
related problems.

 
I also checked with my insurance agent about pool equipment and pipes during an ice storm/deep freeze. She said it would likely be covered during an ice storm that knocked out the electricity and lead to things freezing (likely not covered if your power goes out for non-pay, or other non-storm related causes). She said it would fall under your "other structures" portion of the homeowners policy and would likely subject to the same deductible as your main house.

It would take a lot of damage to make it worth it to make a claim, but there is at least a bit of peace of mind in case a worst case scenario where you lost most/all of your equipment and had underground damage.

As a quick disclaimer, I am sleeping with my agent, so I'm for sure getting the Rogers/JJ Rate. You should always check with your actual agent instead of some bozo on the internet. Hope that helps.
 
I just came inside from draining the water level down below the skimmer, letting air into the pipes, putting in the Gizzmo, and taking out all the plugs from pumps/filter. I basically closed the pool again except for blowing air out of the returns and capping them.

My water temp is at 49 and I don't feel like cooling it off by running full blast for a week in these cold temps. Spring will be here soon, I have faith.
 
Without reading all of it, looks like this is one of the threads. Enough good info to make most of us normal people just nod in agreement. The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection
I'm a sucker for anything that starts with the "Physics of..." wind me up and let me go! "The Physics of Pancake Syrup" and I'll burn through two boxes of Eggo waffles testing the hypothesis... anyway.. what does this have to do with a pool in extreme winter.... Well for those that have a SWG salt pools you get a little bit of extra freeze protection. Adding salt to your water will create an effect called Freezing Point Depression. But lets not get carried away, its not a lot.. and don't go throwing a bunch of salt in your pool just to lower the freezing point of your water. You'll likely toast your SWG controller come spring time. The salinity of Ocean water depresses the freezing point to about -4 deg F.. for a salt pool at 3400ppm that effect will be less than a degree I'm estimating.
According to my physics profs every good physics lab should have a graph and an equation... so here:
300px-Saltwater_freezing_point.jpg
4647a4a72ea7c1e8cfd7e2248e82248796475f34

(thanks Wikipedia for allowing me to dry lab yet another assignment)
 
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So check my logic on this please. In the Dallas area people rely on freeze protection, including me. We have a 3 day stretch where it looks like we will dip down into the teens and get a few degrees above freezing each day. We were in the 70's earlier in the week and chances are we will be back there shortly, so I would really rather not spend superbowl sunday learning how to winterize for a 3-day stretch of weather.

I'm really only worried about a contingency plan in the absolute worst case we lose power in the middle of the night when it is in the teens. If that were to happen, this would be my course of action:
- Turn off the breakers
- Drain the filter via the bottom plug, leave the top pressure valve open as well
- Drain the pump via the bottom plug
- Tarp the equipment

Besides freezing my butt off in the middle of the night doing all of this, anyone see any glaring issues with this contingency plan?

We will be in almost the same boat down here in Houston. I plan to run the pump continuously and I think that should do the trick, but I'm also thinking about the backup plan in case the power goes out. I was going to do these same things but I'm wondering if it's really necessary to drain the filter and pump via the plugs - which would be a real PITA in the middle of the night at 10F.

If the equipment pad is above the pool surface, and if we just open the top pressure valve on the filter and the pump basket, shouldn't that sufficiently drain the equipment and above ground pipes to protect them?

I could do that in less than 10 seconds and without tools and excessive cursing. It would probably leave some residual water in the bottom of the filter or pump, but it should have plenty of room to expand so I assume it would be unlikely to damage anything when that freezes.
Anyone have any experience or thoughts about this (lazier) plan?
 

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We will be in almost the same boat down here in Houston. I plan to run the pump continuously and I think that should do the trick, but I'm also thinking about the backup plan in case the power goes out. I was going to do these same things but I'm wondering if it's really necessary to drain the filter and pump via the plugs - which would be a real PITA in the middle of the night at 10F.

If the equipment pad is above the pool surface, and if we just open the top pressure valve on the filter and the pump basket, shouldn't that sufficiently drain the equipment and above ground pipes to protect them?

I could do that in less than 10 seconds and without tools and excessive cursing. It would probably leave some residual water in the bottom of the filter or pump, but it should have plenty of room to expand so I assume it would be unlikely to damage anything when that freezes.
Anyone have any experience or thoughts about this (lazier) plan?
My thoughts are the same as yours because when I open my pump basket lid the incoming air lets the water flow on through the filter and heater returning to the pool and water will also flow backwards to the skimmer and drains if I haven't closed the valves.

Someone here in the thread though has chimed in that they had a sand filter and it held enough water than when it froze it still cracked the shell of the filter. I think everyone's mileage may vary and it would depend on how far below freezing it gets and for how long.
 
If the equipment pad is above the pool surface, and if we just open the top pressure valve on the filter and the pump basket, shouldn't that sufficiently drain the equipment and above ground pipes to protect them?
There is a reason the pumps/filters have plugs you unscrew to let out all the water. You are correct about the pipes going to/from the equipment draining to water level when you let in the air but not the other stuff. Also, my sand filter seems to take a couple days to stop dripping water when I take out the plug in the bottom. The pump basket will drain quickly but not a sand filter.
 
New forecast low for DFW this coming Tuesday of -2, high of 17. Not above freezing again for 7 days. It will push our limits of keeping the pools running. I think the biggest challenge is to keep ice off the power lines. Keep electricity to the house and I'm still confident it will all be good.
 
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I think I'm going to go ahead and try and tarp my equipment, since we have been below freezing the last 3 days and the bottom really drops out starting tomorrow, with monday predicted to be -3 freakin degrees.

I have heat tape on the pipes already, and was going to put a think canvas paint drop cloth over that, then a normal old tarp on top of that, then stuff around the edges to weigh it down and keep it everything in place. Any concerns with that approach?
 
have heat tape on the pipes already, and was going to put a think canvas paint drop cloth over that, then a normal old tarp on top of that, then stuff around the edges to weigh it down and keep it everything in place. Any concerns with that approach
Solid plan. . Other acceptable ways would be to bungee or duct-tape it all.

Now, we have all been exclusively talking about the pools but do you guys know how to start your car in the extreme cold ? You run out there screaming a 4 letter word and repeat the same word over and over with ‘**** ITS COLD!!’ Sit in the car rubbing your hands together and chanting until it summons the heat trolls to warm up the car.
 
@Newdude

ONLY requirement I had when we bought our house was a garage to park the vehicle. I lucked out big time, house we found had a garage in the basement which means it’s heated plus has easy access to water. Now, I’ve got a pressure washer hooked up year round to wash all the salt off the van in minutes plus it’s always in the 60’s when I leave for work at 2am 😀
 
Ha, we have a similar ritual in the summer. Turn on car, open the windows, strategically get into the car without touching anything metal including the seat belt that is now doubling as a branding iron, once the inside temp equals the outside temp you roll up the windows and pray to the Freon gods.
 
strategically get into the car without touching anything metal including the seat belt that is now doubling as a branding iron
We have that too. Hmmmmmm. What’s sizzling and why does it smell like bacon in here.......... YEOUUUUUUUUCH !!!!!!!
 

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