Alkalinity HELP Please

CatWoman

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Jul 7, 2018
5
Scottsdale, Az
Pool Size
12000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
My pool was having excessive need for acid so I discovered the alkalinity was low. I have put several lbs of baking soda into it (12, 000 gal) and it finally was on the verge of 70. I put more acid in to get it to 7.4 and all was good last night. This morning the acid was 7.79 so I decided to add anothrr lb of baking soda and acid. Now 2 hrs later I check and the pH is 7.5 but the alkalinity is 40. How did it drop to 40 in about 12 hrs with nothing really added?

I'm overwhelmed at this point and don't want to fill the pool with even more baking soda.... I tested the alkalinity twice and then once again with new water.

We did get a bit of rain, would this cause a problem with alkalinity?

Please assist me in figuring this out.
CatWoman
 
Welcome to TFP.
How are you testing pH and TA? Do you have proper test kit or using test strips?
If pH is at 7.8 let it sit there for a day before making any adjustments. Are you allowing the pool to circulate properly before testing?
 
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My pool was having excessive need for acid so I discovered the alkalinity was low. I have put several lbs of baking soda into it (12, 000 gal) and it finally was on the verge of 70. I put more acid in to get it to 7.4 and all was good last night. This morning the acid was 7.79 so I decided to add anothrr lb of baking soda and acid. Now 2 hrs later I check and the pH is 7.5 but the alkalinity is 40. How did it drop to 40 in about 12 hrs with nothing really added?

I'm overwhelmed at this point and don't want to fill the pool with even more baking soda.... I tested the alkalinity twice and then once again with new water.

We did get a bit of rain, would this cause a problem with alkalinity?

Please assist me in figuring this out.
CatWoman
Alkalinity being low will not make the pool need acid. It’s the opposite. If the TA gets below 50ppm, only then do you need baking soda to raise the TA. If you increase the TA above 60-70ppm, the pH will rise faster.

Adding baking soda and acid at the same time just cancel each other out. Here’s an article on the details.

If the TA is at least 50ppm, then don’t touch it. If the pH is 7.0-7.9, leave it alone as well.
 
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Welcome to TFP.
How are you testing pH and TA? Do you have proper test kit or using test strips?
If pH is at 7.8 let it sit there for a day before making any adjustments. Are you allowing the pool to circulate properly before testing?
How, thank your for helping me clarify. I have the TF-100 kit. I'm using the Total Alkalinity test and I also have a pH meter that I re-calibrated it last week.

I recirculate the water for about 11 hours a day.

I didn't know the acid would cancel out the baking soda but I usually add them at least 2 hrs between anything except acid and chlorine.

My pH has been in the 8.3 range. The acid didn't keep the pH down so I kept adding baking soda to get the acid to work consistently.
CatWoman
 
How, thank your for helping me clarify. I have the TF-100 kit. I'm using the Total Alkalinity test and I also have a pH meter that I re-calibrated it last week.

I recirculate the water for about 11 hours a day.

I didn't know the acid would cancel out the baking soda but I usually add them at least 2 hrs between anything except acid and chlorine.

My pH has been in the 8.3 range. The acid didn't keep the pH down so I kept adding baking soda to get the acid to work consistently.
CatWoman
Baking soda will make the pH rise because baking soda raises the TA. You will likely never need to use baking soda if you are not using trichlor tablets.
 
Good to know. Why did the TA go from 6.5 to 4? Did the rain affect it or did I use too much acid?
Do you mean the pH? The test kit can’t measure TA in increments of 6.5 or 4.

But if the pH was 6.5, then adding acid would make it go lower. But 6.5 is already too low. Don’t trust that pH meter, use the TF kit test.
 
Welcome to posting on TFP! :wave:

Post a full set of current test results from your TF-100.
How old are your test kit reagents?

I see you have PoolMath linked to your forum account, but only see chemical additions and no test results. Either post and save test results to PoolMath or post the results here in the following format.

FC
CC
pH
TA
CH
CYA
Water temperature
 
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Just some friendly advice for the OP, to heed the advice above from others as they had to guess what you meant because what you said made no sense (but they could extrapolate what you had meant). Allow me to explain...

You said:
  • My pool was having excessive need for acid so I discovered the alkalinity was low.
That makes no sense to us for a few reasons, not the least of which is the pool never "needs acid", per se, except when LOWERING alkalinity (or lowering the pH).
Even so, the alkalinity being low would mean your pH ceiling would be low which means you'd need LESS acid; not more acid.

You then said:
  • I have put several lbs of baking soda into it (12, 000 gal) and it finally was on the verge of 70.
That makes sense if your carbonate alkalinity was low, which you now have at total alkalinity of 70 ppm which is just fine.

After that you said:
  • I put more acid in to get it to 7.4 and all was good last night.
You probably mean pH of 7.4, which is just fine, although with a CYA outdoor pool, the pH isn't all that important for disinfection.
The pH only matters, for the most part, on an outdoor CYA pool for your saturation index situation to work on scaling/aggressiveness.

As people said, simultaneously adding acid (which lowers the pH) and baking soda (which raises the pH) seems to be counterproductive.
But bear in mind what I said about the pH not being all that important in an outdoor CYA pool for disinfection purposes.

Then you said:
  • This morning the acid was 7.79 so I decided to add another lb of baking soda and acid.
Again, you mean pH most likely, where a pH of 7.8 is just fine for an outdoor pool with CYA since pH doesn't matter to disinfection.
The pH only matters for the calcium saturation where you don't seem to know about that yet so for you - for now - stop chasing pH.

Then you said:
  • Now 2 hrs later I check and the pH is 7.5 but the alkalinity is 40.
If you added acid, then you "burned" off your carbonate alkalinity; so it's to be expected that your total alkalinity will drop.
As people said, if you're simultaneously adding acid & carbonate alkalinity, they'll defeat each other.

Then you asked:
  • How did it drop to 40 in about 12 hrs with nothing really added?
I suspect the acid burned off the carbonate alkalinity, which turned it into carbon dioxide & water, which lowered the total alkalinity readings.

Then you assessed:
  • I'm overwhelmed at this point and don't want to fill the pool with even more baking soda.... I tested the alkalinity twice and then once again with new water.
I understand. You're chasing all the wrong numbers it seems. What you need to do is stop chasing ranges.
Take the advice of people here to do one thing and one thing only.
  • Report your pool chemistry numbers
  • People here will then tell you what you need to do (if anything).
Also note the pool math calculators will also tell you what you need to do
But you have to be careful to not simply chase ranges

Lastly, you noted:
  • We did get a bit of rain, would this cause a problem with alkalinity?
Rain water is essentially distilled water, which will basically dilute almost everything.
Therefore, depending on the amount of rain, the answer is it will lower your alkalinity.

Overall, my recommendation for all newbies is the following basic (but sound) advice:
  1. Test your pool chemistry yourself (and report the results here where people will kindly help you).
    • (most people would recommend you use a good pool-math calculator on your mobile device)
  2. Most would also recommend you use only liquid chlorine (no tablets, no granules, no powders) for sanitization
    • (keep your cyanuric acid level as low as feasible, where 30 ppm is a good inflection point to aim for)
  3. For sanitation, maintain free chlorine at least 7.5% higher than the CYA, and then plus 1 or 2 ppm)
    • (maintain free chlorine at less than 7.5% of your CYA - e.g., half that - only if your phosphates are extremely low)
    • (this eclectic algae assessment is rarely discussed but it came from either Richard Falk or Bob Lowry, as I recall)
  4. For saturation, maintain the water's equilibrium within +/- 0.33 of the zero-crossing point
    • (generally that means aim for calcium saturation & carbonate alkalinity to be within typical ranges)
      • (not many people think about it this way, but a common ratio is 1:4 alkalinity ppm to calcium ppm)
    • (keep in mind the six factors which affect the saturation index are temp, pH, carbonate alkalinity, calcium hardness, CYA alkalinity & TDS)
      • (but you have little control over the temperature & not much control over the pH and/or TDS)
      • (the CYA alkalinity is about 1/3rd of the CYA ppm & the carbonate alkalinity is about 10% lower than the total alkalinity)
        • (but the pool math calculators take all those equations & square roots into account for you)
  5. If you don't fully understand any of those basics, don't worry as everyone here knows them inside & out
    • (so you can read up on each of them & ask away if necessary).
 
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Just some friendly advice for the OP, to heed the advice above from others as they had to guess what you meant because what you said made no sense (but they could extrapolate what you had meant). Allow me to explain...

You said:
  • My pool was having excessive need for acid so I discovered the alkalinity was low.
That makes no sense to us for a few reasons, not the least of which is the pool never "needs acid", per se, except when LOWERING alkalinity (or lowering the pH).
Even so, the alkalinity being low would mean your pH ceiling would be low which means you'd need LESS acid; not more acid.

You then said:
  • I have put several lbs of baking soda into it (12, 000 gal) and it finally was on the verge of 70.
That makes sense if your carbonate alkalinity was low, which you now have at total alkalinity of 70 ppm which is just fine.

After that you said:
  • I put more acid in to get it to 7.4 and all was good last night.
You probably mean pH of 7.4, which is just fine, although with a CYA outdoor pool, the pH isn't all that important for disinfection.
The pH only matters, for the most part, on an outdoor CYA pool for your saturation index situation to work on scaling/aggressiveness.

As people said, simultaneously adding acid (which lowers the pH) and baking soda (which raises the pH) seems to be counterproductive.
But bear in mind what I said about the pH not being all that important in an outdoor CYA pool for disinfection purposes.

Then you said:
  • This morning the acid was 7.79 so I decided to add another lb of baking soda and acid.
Again, you mean pH most likely, where a pH of 7.8 is just fine for an outdoor pool with CYA since pH doesn't matter to disinfection.
The pH only matters for the calcium saturation where you don't seem to know about that yet so for you - for now - stop chasing pH.

Then you said:
  • Now 2 hrs later I check and the pH is 7.5 but the alkalinity is 40.
If you added acid, then you "burned" off your carbonate alkalinity; so it's to be expected that your total alkalinity will drop.
As people said, if you're simultaneously adding acid & carbonate alkalinity, they'll defeat each other.

Then you asked:
  • How did it drop to 40 in about 12 hrs with nothing really added?
I suspect the acid burned off the carbonate alkalinity, which turned it into carbon dioxide & water, which lowered the total alkalinity readings.

Then you assessed:
  • I'm overwhelmed at this point and don't want to fill the pool with even more baking soda.... I tested the alkalinity twice and then once again with new water.
I understand. You're chasing all the wrong numbers it seems. What you need to do is stop chasing ranges.
Take the advice of people here to do one thing and one thing only.
  • Report your pool chemistry numbers
  • People here will then tell you what you need to do (if anything).
Also note the pool math calculators will also tell you what you need to do
But you have to be careful to not simply chase ranges

Lastly, you noted:
  • We did get a bit of rain, would this cause a problem with alkalinity?
Rain water is essentially distilled water, which will basically dilute almost everything.
Therefore, depending on the amount of rain, the answer is it will lower your alkalinity.

Overall, my recommendation for all newbies is the following basic (but sound) advice:
  1. Test your pool chemistry yourself (and report the results here where people will kindly help you).
    • (most people would recommend you use a good pool-math calculator on your mobile device)
  2. Most would also recommend you use only liquid chlorine (no tablets, no granules, no powders) for sanitization
    • (keep your cyanuric acid level as low as feasible, where 30 ppm is a good inflection point to aim for)
  3. For sanitation, maintain free chlorine at least 7.5% higher than the CYA, and then plus 1 or 2 ppm)
    • (maintain free chlorine at less than 7.5% of your CYA - e.g., half that - only if your phosphates are extremely low)
    • (this eclectic algae assessment is rarely discussed but it came from either Richard Falk or Bob Lowry, as I recall)
  4. For saturation, maintain the water's equilibrium within +/- 0.33 of the zero-crossing point
    • (generally that means aim for calcium saturation & carbonate alkalinity to be within typical ranges)
      • (not many people think about it this way, but a common ratio is 1:4 alkalinity ppm to calcium ppm)
    • (keep in mind the six factors which affect the saturation index are temp, pH, carbonate alkalinity, calcium hardness, CYA alkalinity & TDS)
      • (but you have little control over the temperature & not much control over the pH and/or TDS)
      • (the CYA alkalinity is about 1/3rd of the CYA ppm & the carbonate alkalinity is about 10% lower than the total alkalinity)
        • (but the pool math calculators take all those equations & square roots into account for you)
  5. If you don't fully understand any of those basics, don't worry as everyone here knows them inside & out
    • (so you can read up on each of them & ask away if necessary).
Thank you so incredibly much for enlightening me. Now I know what I wrote makes no sense at all. I'm chasing pH with Baking soda and vise versa.

I will try to figure out how to post all my tests and try not to read and remember. Having a traumatic brain injury is overwhelming. Please watch for motorcycles as being hit is how it occurred.

Sorry to create confusion. And I appreciate getting answers to my issue, which is a non-issue. I appreciate everyone's attempt to help.
CatWoman
 
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I'm chasing pH with Baking soda and vise versa.
Copy this down and refer to it.

Muriatic Acid - lowers pH and lowers TA (not proportional to each other)

Chemicals suggested for raising TA. Their effects are:

Baking Soda = big TA change, small pH change
Borax = big pH change, small TA change
Soda Ash/Washing Soda = big pH change, big TA change. Probably more TA change than you want.
 
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. Having a traumatic brain injury is overwhelming.
I bet. But rest assured, the information overload here was like tying to drink from a fire hydrant for most of us when we were new. Every last bit of it is incredibly simple, but there's a bazillion bits of it to learn at first.

We didn't forget what it was like.

Say the word and we'll repeat or try a new angle as often as you need. Or help you connect the dots you're missing. :)
 
I'm probably the wrong guy to "simplify" pool chemistry, but I'll try to suggest to the OP to break his pool chemistry tasks into two things.
  1. Sanitation
  2. Saturation
For sanitation, on an outdoor non-salt pool, I'd aim for about 30ppm of cyanuric acid (which means chlorine doesn't start working until it's about 2.25ppm).
That means I'd aim for the free chlorine to be roughly about 1-1/2 or 2 ppm above that, which is about 4ppm free chlorine readings (at that cyanuric acid concentration).
I wouldn't worry about anything else (such as combined chlorine) to keep it simple (unless the combined chlorine ratio to free chlorine is high).
Nor would I worry about the temperature, the pH, the TA, the calcium, or the TDS for keeping the sanitation calculations simple yet effective.

For saturation, on a plaster pool, I'd aim for +- 0.33 of the zero-crossing point on the calcium saturation calculators, which take into account all those things above that I didn't take into account for sanitation. Mostly what you can most easily control is the alkalinity & calcium hardness so aim for a 1:3 or even 1:4 alkalinity to calcium (e.g., 100ppm:400ppm or 80ppm:320ppm, etc.).

That's as simple as I can make it and still be reasonably accurate on what is needed to maintain sanitation & saturation chemistry.
 
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I cannot tell you how much I appreciate everyone, especially Newdude and Gary. Life is more than usual with this TBI (traumatic brain injury), please watch more motorcycles, it might be me (yes, I still ride).

I will do what you have said and only worry about the CYA (which should be fine) and the free chlorine. I was spending a fortune in acid and I was worried my new pebbletech was not going to survive but I will put that worry aside.

Again, I cannot tell you how much I value the help you have provided me.
CW
 
Post up test results if anything swings and we'll happily guide you. :)

*except FC. That will swing everyday. The sun eats it and you replace it, leaving some wiggle room just in case.
 
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Enter your test results in PoolMath and click the save checkmark to save them.
Since your PoolMath is linked to your forum account, the results will show (instead of just your chemical additions) when we click your user icon and PoolMath Logs..

Hopefully you are adding liquid chlorine more frequently than shown in your PoolMath logs.
Keep FC near the top of the target range based on your CYA. FC/CYA Levels
 
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