Algae - SLAM (or use Shock?)

[TreeFiter]

7:45 pm FC 30.5 since I'm supposed to target 27 or so and I have been losing only 1-2 FC level most nights, I'm not going to add more tonight.

One more question - I notice I am burning almost all the chlorine I use between 10:30 am and 2:30 pm. What would happen if I let the level drop to around 14-17 as it did today (not try to boost it high in the morning)? I'm afraid my husband is going to get upset with me having to buy too much chlorine sooner or later. Either that, or if there's anything else I can do to speed up getting it cleaned out, or if I can give him an idea of how long it's likely to take?

Its important to understand that chlorine will be consumed regularly, and will be consumed rapidly when there is algae growing in the pool. When you see the big drop during the day, it is for a couple of reasons. One, sunlight will break down chlorine. Two, algae thrive in sunlight. So during the day, it is normal to expect FC to drop more.

Under normal circumstances, you would need to regularly add chlorine to the pool just to maintain sufficient levels to prevent algae growth. With algae already growing, you need to not only maintain FC, but add enough surplus to fight the algae too.

One of the best analogies, is to think of it as a war. When the enemy, in this case algae, attacks with more force, you will experience more casualties (FC loss). At night the algae aren't working as hard because there is no sun, and the sun isn't fighting against you either. Your troops, the chlorine, continue to fight. During the day, you are fighting a much bigger army, and your advances will be smaller with more casualties. If you were to allow the FC to remain lower during the day, it would be like sending in less troops because you fear casualties. You might not lose as many troops, but you certainly won't win that battle either. Losing chlorine is part of the process, and can't really be avoided. If you get stingy about adding chlorine, you will create opportunities for algae to take the upper hand.

Don't let the cost of chlorine stand in your way of success. Yes it can get expensive, but it will only get more expensive if you try to hold back. If you hold back, the algae will take over again, and you will be starting all over. The chlorine you already put in the pool will have been wasted. Keep the FC levels at SLAM levels at all times. If you know you aren't going to be able to check them for a fairly long period of time, you might want to bring them a little bit higher.

It sounds like you are making good progress, so keep up the good work, and trust the SLAM process. It will work.

 

[Trishanna]

If he does swim have him wear an old suit ... And have him get the acorns out.

LOL!!! Well, the water is still cold. He satisfied himself with mowing, edging, blowing all the leaves away from the pool , and guy-yard-stuff. Then brought the lounge chair out by the pool.

And yes, I really, really want a CYA - I don't really know how much I've replaced, but more than a foot of water. Not sure how significant that really is.

 

[Trishanna]

Its important to understand that chlorine will be consumed regularly, and will be consumed rapidly when there is algae growing in the pool. When you see the big drop during the day, it is for a couple of reasons. One, sunlight will break down chlorine. Two, algae thrive in sunlight. So during the day, it is normal to expect FC to drop more.

Under normal circumstances, you would need to regularly add chlorine to the pool just to maintain sufficient levels to prevent algae growth. With algae already growing, you need to not only maintain FC, but add enough surplus to fight the algae too.

One of the best analogies, is to think of it as a war. When the enemy, in this case algae, attacks with more force, you will experience more casualties (FC loss). At night the algae aren't working as hard because there is no sun, and the sun isn't fighting against you either. Your troops, the chlorine, continue to fight. During the day, you are fighting a much bigger army, and your advances will be smaller with more casualties. If you were to allow the FC to remain lower during the day, it would be like sending in less troops because you fear casualties. You might not lose as many troops, but you certainly won't win that battle either. Losing chlorine is part of the process, and can't really be avoided. If you get stingy about adding chlorine, you will create opportunities for algae to take the upper hand.

Don't let the cost of chlorine stand in your way of success. Yes it can get expensive, but it will only get more expensive if you try to hold back. If you hold back, the algae will take over again, and you will be starting all over. The chlorine you already put in the pool will have been wasted. Keep the FC levels at SLAM levels at all times. If you know you aren't going to be able to check them for a fairly long period of time, you might want to bring them a little bit higher.

It sounds like you are making good progress, so keep up the good work, and trust the SLAM process. It will work.

Thanks, and I will use the powder too, no reason to hang onto it I guess.

With the weather it's better. I was out in a rainstorm yesterday, scrubbing the pool and all. Only did one backwash yesterday. Was gone longer than expected then sick last night, so I didn't mean to, but it did go nearly 24 hours without a test and add.

This morning when I tested, FC was 22 - not super-bad. I added enough to bring it up to 32, which I generally over-shoot before the sunny part of the day. (Cloudy today though, so might not be as bad). Off to the pool store for more chlorine. I'm using WAY less than the first day, and each day a little less, I think.




As to the pool's condition, I'm really pleased with it today. The water is REALLY clear. I thought it was clear before, but what I saw as a dark mass near the drain, and guessed it was sand because it was so heavy - today I can SEE that it's sand. I see the color, and the way the grains are spread out. The water is REALLY clear.

When I did the backwash - about 18 hours after the last one (usually don't let it go that long) it was barely greenish when it first came out. Went to clear almost immediately. The same with the rinse after.

I do still have the black stuff on the bottom, that gets pushed (I guess by water flow?) to the same two spots every night. My husband is trying to retrofit a water pump he has to make a super-effective vacuum lol, that if it works, we will just vacuum that stuff out onto the grass. It ought to be strong enough to pick up everything else. (Unless it is too strong and just scatters the black stuff.)

But yes, water is SUPER clear today. I can't tell if it's sparkling, no sun. But it's not cloudy or dull at all.

I'm happy with progress!

 

[TreeFiter]

Glad to hear things are working. A word of caution with creating a "super-effective vacuum". If he uses a pump that is too powerful, you can actually suck up the liner in certain situations. Be very careful.

That being said, your pool pump should have plenty of power to suck up just about anything that will end up in your pool. If you have piles of black stuff in your pool, I would vac it out on waste. Keep in mind, everything in there is using up chlorine, so the more you get out, the less chlorine you will need to add.

You said there is a pile of sand in the pool as well. Is this just dirt that got in there, or could it have come from your filter. If your water is clearing up, your filter seems to be working, but if a pile of sand just suddenly appeared it could suggest filter problems.

If the water is clear, I would vac out everything on waste. Then I would recommend an Overnight Chlorine loss test. If you pass that test, you've won the war. Otherwise, continue to SLAM until you are able to pass the overnight test.

 

[Trishanna]

Glad to hear things are working. A word of caution with creating a "super-effective vacuum". If he uses a pump that is too powerful, you can actually suck up the liner in certain situations. Be very careful.

That being said, your pool pump should have plenty of power to suck up just about anything that will end up in your pool. If you have piles of black stuff in your pool, I would vac it out on waste. Keep in mind, everything in there is using up chlorine, so the more you get out, the less chlorine you will need to add.

You said there is a pile of sand in the pool as well. Is this just dirt that got in there, or could it have come from your filter. If your water is clearing up, your filter seems to be working, but if a pile of sand just suddenly appeared it could suggest filter problems.

If the water is clear, I would vac out everything on waste. Then I would recommend an Overnight Chlorine loss test. If you pass that test, you've won the war. Otherwise, continue to SLAM until you are able to pass the overnight test.

Thanks for the warning about the liner. I'll be sure to test how the thing is working.

He tried to use that pump to power the Polaris 380 and it's not that powerful. The power to the vacuum is going to depend on the diameter of the hose and end, I would think. We are first planning to try a regular pool vac hose, and are fitting a skimmer cover which should disperse further. I will definitely test it though. I doubt it will be powerful enough to do damage, but I will be careful. Thanks very much for mentioning that.

Maybe it's the setup we have, or just user error. I don't know why I can't get the vacuum to work well. I do have a vacuum that attaches to the skimmer, with a new skimmer cover. I set it up to vacuum to waste (I've done this several times) and it did pick up some leaves, scatter the dead algae, and leaves the acorns. The waste flow quickly gets weaker and weaker and just trickles off. I'm just frustrated because I've tried it several times. I actually got it to work better cycling it through the filter, but that probably defeats the purpose. Like I said, it's probably user error. I do get a good seal and there is suction holding the skimmer cover in place, and I did close the pool drain. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but just tired of getting half-results.

If I had an aquarium cleaner I feel as though I should be able to get the stuff out. So with all this pool stuff, I keep thinking I should be able to do it.

As far as the sand, it's just a bit, and at least some was there last year. I get a little more near the steps where the two strongest jets are, but it's very little. There's probably not more than 1/2 cup in the entire pool and that's from before last October until now.

I do think maybe the water is good. I just need to get that black stuff out. And I think it's the same black stuff every day, I scrub it up, and it ends up settled back into the same places. I think the water circulation is decent - the acorns did not stay in the same place I left them overnight but migrated halfway up to the shallow end.

Not much got done today. I did test and add chlorine - I did not brush down the pool because we got thunderstorms that lasted all day while we were here. First time I've missed. But FC is maintaining well, not a lot of sunlight.

Hopefully we will get a chance to try to remove that stuff tomorrow (may rain all day again), and as soon as we do, I'll spend a day doing the tests, and if it tests ok - then yaayyy!!!! Otherwise, I'll do whatever I need to do.

Thanks very much - I will definitely check the pressure on the vacuum before we use it!

 

[Trishanna]

And just frustrating.

Lots of rain. Not sure how many inches, but it's rained a good bit the past 3 days now, and I think it's supposed to tomorrow as well. I've been out there scrubbing the pool in the rain sometimes, but not as much maintenance as I did on it before the storms started.

Hubby hasn't gotten the pump-turned-vacuum finished yet, still a few leaves and the same black stuff. No more, no less. Water still very clear. Using a bit more chlorine than expected since there's not much sun - running about 3-1/2 gal. per day, maybe a little more depending what time(s) I test. Aiming for FC 32 still, though I wonder if my CYA isn't lower now.

Backwash seems almost unnecessary - the water comes out almost clean, going to clean very quickly.

I haven't tested the CC lately. Just wanna get the black stuff out so I can see if I am in fact finished.

Just saying that I'm still here, LOL. At least the pollen has decreased (rain?) and there are FAR fewer leaves falling.

Oh, and when I said I was skimming leaves - I saw at the pool store yesterday what a skimmer is. I'm not skimming. I'm using this huge net that's actually a leaf rake. And I was filling it up. 5 oak trees close to the pool. Hubby wants to cut them down, and he loves trees. He's not even the one digging leaves out of the pool! But the past 2 days have only been a very small number of leaves dropping in.

Just gotta get that black stuff gone, and maybe we're good. Water is 70F, might even swim in a week or two?

Thanks again all.

 

[Vette]

Rain adds a lot less water volume to your pool than you'd except. Just assume your CYA is exactly the same as before. You're probably on the upswing now, so keep that FC level up for a little longer! The sand filter will be doing the heavy lifting of clearing the dead algae out of the water now. Sand is a little slower than Cartridge or DE, so hang in there!

 

[TreeFiter]

You said that you have tried vaccuuming to waste, but you don't get much suction for long. Have you checked the pump basket? If you aren't getting good suction with your pump, chances are something is clogged up. You might also try, instead of the skimmer plate, putting the end of the hose right into the hole at the bottom of the skimmer. Then when you are done, you just empty out the pump basket and backwash.

 

[Trishanna]

Well, I'm probably in a bit of a new place. The end of the storm dumped a LOT of leaves in the pool, and I had some trouble getting them all out. More than I started with.

OK, so today the leaves are all out of the pool. The water still looks nice and clear. I finally got the bottom cleared of all but sand. I'm not positive about the stuff that gets deposited overnight, but we got the pump system my husband built worked out and if it's there in the morning, I should be able to remove that.

We've had more than 2 feet of water between rain and what I've had to add to replace all the backwashes and vacuums. With all the leaves, the chlorine got down awfully low one afternoon - the FC tested at 1.5. Because of those things I did another CYA, which showed 47. So if I am still needing to SLAM I need to maintain an FC of 18 instead of 27?

After I got it all cleaned up, I added bleach to get it up to 18 (keeping it between 17 and 22). I plan to see if the water in the pool is clean tomorrow, and I want to maintain SLAM levels for at least a couple more days, since I had such a mess with the leaves - unless y'all think that's unreasonable?

I'll see if I have an overnight loss tomorrow night or the next night, and check the CC then if it's ok. Assuming the black stuff doesn't settle back onto the bottom. If it does, I'll wait until that is gone first.




Now - the part that I'm wondering about ...

I clean both the filter baskets pretty much every day, the one in the pool a couple times a day when there are lots of leaves. So from the suggestion above, when I went to try to vacuum to waste, I was checking the hole where the drain goes out from under the filter basket. It seemed to have leaves, so I pushed a dowel rod in there.

It feels like there are leaves packed almost solid in there? Is there supposed to be something there? It goes a ways down, and wasn't a clear pipe anywhere?

When the filter basket gets full of leaves (and it does sometimes twice a day, like I said - we tend to get a LOT of leaves) - then it seems like the water flow is restricted. I usually scoop out as many of the leaves as I can BEFORE I remove the basket to dump it, so that I don't lose a bunch around the edges. When I am removing leaves from the basket, large bubbles come up and it seems like there is flow. What I mean is, it seems like the basket full of leaves will restrict the flow, but once they are disturbed a bit, the flow seems restored.

So can there really be near-solid packed leaves in the drain? I sometimes get a few leaves in the pump basket, but not many.

Anyway - I'm not sure what I need to do about this. It definitely draws leaves into the skimmer, and I see them swirl around in there. There is suction.
I did NOT try to vacuum to waste with the filter basket removed after I saw that. I was afraid of just making the situation worse. I did vacuum a bit with the basket in place, and I do get a decent flow for a while.

I just switched to the leaf rake to clean the bottom of the pool. Fortunately it worked exceptionally well for me that time - maybe I'm learning how to use it. And if the other stuff is on the bottom, I'm hoping the pump my husband built can vacuum that onto the ground.

I just need to figure out how to make the filter work as it should without gumming everything up.

Any advice is much appreciated, and if I need to move this to a different area, I will make a new post.

Thanks very, VERY much!

 

[pwrstrk]

Sounds like a plan with the SLAM. Better safe than sorry !

 

[karmabiker]

No need for a new post- best to keep it all in one place so we have good history.

Good plan with the slam.


On the skimmer is one of the holes flowing well?

 

[Trishanna]

No need for a new post- best to keep it all in one place so we have good history.

Good plan with the slam.


On the skimmer is one of the holes flowing well?

Do you mean the drain hole under the skimmer basket? There is only one hole, as far as I see. Unless it's really hidden in a corner?

I get large bubbles from one of the eyeballs when the flow out through the skimmer is reduced (like if there are a lot of leaves packing the basket). There are always small bubbles there.

If I vacuum to waste using only the skimmer, I do get a pretty good gush of water - it's the same diameter as the pipe and reasonably powerful. Maybe not quite as strong as when the drain and skimmer are both open.

I planned to work on the air leak as soon as the SLAM was taken care of, but maybe it's not a leak - maybe it's an obstruction in the skimmer drain. Is there supposed to be anything in there? I'm guessing there's not like filtering material or anything in the skimmer drain? If there's not supposed to be anything in there, then it is pretty filled with something. (Most likely leaves) I can get the dowel rod pressed into it easily, but I can also feel the resistance that something is there, as far down as I can reach.

When we bought the house, the water had been looking clean. The pump was on a timer - I think a couple hours a day (fall) and they had someone coming to take care of the pool once a week or so I think.

 

[Trishanna]

BTW, there is much less of the black stuff, just a tiny bit. I am thinking it might have more to do with leaves than algae. At any rate, I think I'm going to be able to get it cleaned out today.

It does seem there's a bit more sand. Still not a lot, but I notice little skirls of it here and there near the edges. I wonder if it must not be coming from the filter. Not sure it can be blowing in (though there's an area of unplanted soil near the pool through a picket fence. And no one's getting in and out of the pool. I do see it first around the steps where the 2 strongest eyeballs are, so I'd say the filter is dumping a tablespoon or two of sand in the pool every day or few.

 

[TreeFiter]

It sounds like you might have a partially clogged skimmer line. Sometimes if you play around with the valves you can free it up. Other times it just makes it worse. What I usually do is close the Main Drain valve, and quickly close the skimmer valve and open it back up. The pump will build pressure and when you open the valve back up it might be enough to free up the clog. It might also be enough to just pull the clog deeper into the line, so its a gamble.

You could try to blow the line, but you will need a compressor. Sometimes a good shop vac is powerful enough to do it too.

You said your husband was trying to setup a pump to vacuum with. If he was able to get it working, you might be able to use that to unclog the line. If you stick the end of the vac hose in the skimmer hole, you might be able to suck out the leaves. Just make sure you set the multiport (The handle on top of the sand filter) to Recirculate. That way you aren't going to be sucking water backwards through the filter.

As for the sand in the pool, when a filter goes bad, it is usually pretty obvious. There will be a couple hundred pounds of sand on the bottom of your pool. Its possible that only a small amount is getting through, but less likely. I would try to vacuum out the little bit of sand that is there, and keep an eye out for more. If you notice it get worse, it might be a filter problem.

 

[Trishanna]

Thank you.

Well, he has a compressor. And a pretty good shop vac.

The vacuum pump he made is using a water pump. It got jammed the first day because he tried to use it to vacuum out the pile of leaves the storm dropped in, and it almost ruined it. I don't think that one is a good idea, because it's meant to be a submersible pump that picks up water through one port and pushes it out through an attached tube. He's modified it to pick up through a tube rather than be submersible, but the leaves gummed it up pretty quickly.

I take it the compressor is meant to blow the leaves forward?

Ah, well, we can try the shop vac. I think that ought to be reasonably straightforward. The leaves are filling the hose to such a depth I'm not too sure. I would rather get better instructions for how to proceed with the compressor before we try that.

If we mess up anything expensive, it's not going to be possible to fix it for a while.

Thanks very much. And I suspect the filter is fine, as far as the sand. From what I've heard here. Thanks again!

 

[TreeFiter]

Thank you.

Well, he has a compressor. And a pretty good shop vac.

The vacuum pump he made is using a water pump. It got jammed the first day because he tried to use it to vacuum out the pile of leaves the storm dropped in, and it almost ruined it. I don't think that one is a good idea, because it's meant to be a submersible pump that picks up water through one port and pushes it out through an attached tube. He's modified it to pick up through a tube rather than be submersible, but the leaves gummed it up pretty quickly.

I take it the compressor is meant to blow the leaves forward?

Ah, well, we can try the shop vac. I think that ought to be reasonably straightforward. The leaves are filling the hose to such a depth I'm not too sure. I would rather get better instructions for how to proceed with the compressor before we try that.

If we mess up anything expensive, it's not going to be possible to fix it for a while.

Thanks very much. And I suspect the filter is fine, as far as the sand. From what I've heard here. Thanks again!

You seem to be picking this stuff up pretty quick. Yes the intent is to blow the leaves back up to the skimmer rather than towards the filter. Either will work, but if you blow from the pump to the skimmer, you aren't putting pressure on the filter or anything else in the system. Only the pipe between the skimmer and the pump.

I use a special pump lid that has been modified to accept a hose that connects to a special compressor designed for this purpose. What you need to do is open the pump lid, and locate the hole at the front of the pump. This is where the water comes into the pump from the skimmer and any other suctions you may have. You need to put the end of the compressor hose into this hole. You will want to close off any valves to other suctions so the skimmer is isolated. You want to get the best seal you can so that you can build up some pressure in the line which will push the clump of leaves (or whatever it is) back up into the skimmer. Make sure you take the skimmer basket out first. ***Warning: It might not just be leaves in there. You might find something really gross. Don't stand over the skimmer when you start to blow it***

If it doesn't give right away, let the pressure down and try again. Sometimes you kind of have to work it loose by applying air pressure and letting off. Don't put more than 120 psi on the line.

If it is working, you will see major bubbling at the skimmer. Usually it is enough to blow the skimmer cover off and will bubble up above the deck by about a foot. Let it bubble for a few minutes.

One quick thought before you go through all this trouble. If you have a bathroom plunger, you could try to plunge the skimmer. Open the pump lid when you do so that you aren't pulling against the whole system. Take out the skimmer basket and put the plunger right over the hole. I'm not sure how well this will work, but I think its easy enough to be worth trying first. (If it works, be sure to let me know, because I've never actually done it with a plunger myself)

 

[Trishanna]

Thanks very much.

Let me think this through.

I actually don't think a plunger will work, since there IS water moving through it, but it is easy enough to give it a try. And I'll probably try the shop vac first, since that is the easiest thing, I think, but probably least likely to be effective.

Yeah, I kind of had the idea anything at all could be in there. I am hoping it's leaves, but yeah, I guess it could be anything.

I made a tool to pull the skimmer basket up with so I don't have to stick my hand in all that when there's a lot. I've seen some things in the pool I don't want to touch and I'm sure worse is possible.

But after I try those two, if neither works, I'll look into using the compressor. I want to make sure I'm not going to mess anything up first.

I don't suppose a snake would be helpful?




BTW, I used the pump he made and got the pool cleaned out this evening. It was a bit like vacuuming my whole house with a crevice tool on the end of a 15 foot pole. With distortion, LOL. But I got the bottom of the pool pretty clean. I'm going to brush it down and see if the filter deposits anything new. But I'm only backwashing once a day now, and really I don't need to do that. Water's been clean on backwash for maybe 2 days now?

Next I need to see about the pool drain. Now that I've got all the sand, leaves, and everything out of the pool, it looks like some leaves jammed sideways in there too. Might just be a couple leaves and no big deal.

I think someone left me with a plumbing mess in this pool though!

Funny because I freaked out the first time a couple of leaves made it past the skimmer basket once when I had it out to clean it. I think 2 or 3 leaves is the least of my worries, LOL.

Thanks SO much for your help. I'll have a go tomorrow and see what I can get done.

 

[TreeFiter]

A plunger might surprise you. What most people don't realize about a plunger is that even if the water is moving in the pipes, it will work. It moves the whole column of water, so you end up flushing back and forth loosening up the clog. I figure for the amount of effort and cost involved, it can't hurt.

As for a snake, I don't recommend it. If you get it in, and it gets stuck, there's no way to get it back out. Going around 90 degree elbows in 1 1/2" pipe, there's a pretty good chance of getting stuck.

Good luck. You are on the right track at this point.

 

[Beens]

Sorry for the trouble you're having but... I've got to say this thread is intriguing! I feel the suspense and I can't wait to see what is clogging that line! :-(
I hope you'll get it figured out without too much more trouble.

The mental picture of the whole house vacuum with a crevice tool...that's just painful! It's going to be beautiful in the end and thankfully you shouldn't ever have to go through this much hassle again. I'm rooting for you from the bleachers! Now it's time for me to go and mess up my pool by trying to change out my intex fittings for a combination of pvc and hoses...

 

[skyjenn]

I have had leaves/debris in my pipe line before and I have a hose bladder (not sure of correct name) that I use to blow the line clear. Go to Home Depot or Lowes, plumbing section, and this thing looks like a rubber balloon with a slit in it and attaches to your water hose. I turn the filter off, remove skimmer basket, attach bladder to hose and drop in. Then turn the water on for about 15 seconds. Check pump basket and repeat as necessary. This thing comes in about 3 sizes, the one I use is about 6-8 inches long and is about $10-12 dollars. It will blow anything stuck in your pipes to your pump basket.

As far a filter pressure goes, I think you are backwashing too often. This could reduce your pressure so that your filter is not working at its best. Check your pressure gauge on your filter and try to keep it at a constant point. Even when I have a pool problem I try not to back wash more often than every 2 days and when all is working well, I only backwash once per week. It also depends on rain; lately we have been getting 4 inches of rain in a short amount of time and I have to backwash to get the excess water out of the pool which reduces filter pressure. When you are constantly backwashing, vacuuming and doing anything that causes water replacement you could be diluting your chemical mix and should test often.

Pool vacuum: go to pool store and buy one that looks like a triangle with brush bristles on bottom. Hooks via hose to cover that goes over your skimmer basket. Your pole will also attach to it and you can vacuum a lot easier than the homemade tricks you are trying now.

Your CYA is much better than when you started because of the water replacement. I am trying to maintain mine around 35ppm to keep the amount of chlorine I use to a minimum. 30-50ppm is the recommended measure.

Good Luck