Advice for upgrading existing electrical before future renovations

[dan0788]

Recently bought a new house with an old pool. We plan on using it for a season or two before starting a complete renovation. Im trying to do as much as possible now in an attempt to be as prepared as possible for our first season next spring (and to try and lessen the total renovation cost down the road). I currently have an electrician doing work at my house so I'd like to have him update the current pool electric.

Attached is a picture of the current fuse box. I have 2 15amp breakers on my main panel feeding this. Someone in another thread recommended replacing it with a subpanel with gfci circut breakers.

My question is if there's anything else I should add to allow for future growth when we do our renovation. The size of everything will stay the same but we'll likely upgrade to either a 2speed or vsp, switch to swg and add pool lighting. Depending on the condition of the existing pump, I may consider upgrading this year for the right price. But no spa, automation, or any major changes. I havent had a pool in 15+ years - do people still install timers for the pump or is that something thats can be done on the pump itself these days.

Any advice would be apprecaited!

 

[ajw22]

I would have your electrician friend bring the pump electrical up to code for safety and replace the fuse box with a CB subpanel and a GFCI CB. Plan out sufficient CBs in the subpanel for your future needs.

Have him check that the pump is bonded to the pool.

While you say you don’t want automation, simple app based automation had replaced timers for many people. Look at the Pentair IntelliConnect or the Hayward Omni systems.

Give consideration to your VS pump, SWG, and automation being from the same manufacturer.

How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[dan0788]

I would have your electrician friend bring the pump electrical up to code for safety and replace the fuse box with a CB subpanel and a GFCI CB. Plan out sufficient CBs in the subpanel for your future needs.

Have him check that the pump is bonded to the pool.

While you say you don’t want automation, simple app based automation had replaced timers for many people. Look at the Pentair IntelliConnect or the Hayward Omni systems.

Give consideration to your VS pump, SWG, and automation being from the same manufacturer.

How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Thank you for all the feedback! That Pentair system isnt nearly as bad as I was expecting cost wise. I'll have to do my homework on it. Would you recommend adding something like that now with a new subpanel or just have an extra breaker available for it and do it down the road once all the new equipment is picked out?

 

[ajw22]

Basically what you need is:

• Pentair IntelliFlo 011056 VS pump
• Pentair Intellichlor IC40 SWG
• Whatever pool lights you decide
• Controlled by a Pentair IntelliConnect
• Subpanel has breakers for:
  • Pool Pump & IntelliChlor - GFCI 240V 20A Pentair PA220GF
  • IntelliConnect - 120V 15A CB
  • Pool Lights - as needed
  • Convienece GFCI outlet - 120V 20A CB

I would just do it all at the same time.

And change all the flex PVC on your equipment pad to hard PVC.

 

[dan0788]

Basically what you need is:

• Pentair IntelliFlo 011056 VS pump
• Pentair Intellichlor IC40 SWG
• Whatever pool lights you decide
• Controlled by a Pentair IntelliConnect
• Subpanel has breakers for:
  • Pool Pump & IntelliChlor - GFCI 240V 20A Pentair PA220GF
  • IntelliConnect - 120V 15A CB
  • Pool Lights - as needed
  • Convienece GFCI outlet - 120V 20A CB

I would just do it all at the same time.

And change all the flex PVC on your equipment pad to hard PVC.

Very helpful, thanks! Will begin my research on everything.

The electrician took a look at the box and said "The wire you have there now is a 220 volt line with no neutral and a ground. So you wouldn’t be able to use that for a sub panel. And the wire size is 20 amp so it wouldn’t do more then one circuit anyway. The fuses you have in there now are only 15 amps."

He said he can replace the existing fuse box with a 220v timer but adding a sub panel would require rewiring everything back to the main panel.

Jumping back to the other thread where you asked about the bonding wire - figured it'd make more sense to discuss it here:

Theres a copper wire that runs down the side of the house and into the fuse box with the main power wire (assuming its coming from the main panel grounding block)
The copper wire is grounded in the fuse box, and a separate copper wire comes out of the bottom of the box and bypasses all of the equipment. It splits at a grounding nut with a coated wire just before going into the dirt shown in attached pic. I'd assume/hope that goes toward the pool?

The exposed copper wire is 90% painted if that makes any difference

 

[ajw22]

The electrician took a look at the box and said "The wire you have there now is a 220 volt line with no neutral and a ground. So you wouldn’t be able to use that for a sub panel. And the wire size is 20 amp so it wouldn’t do more then one circuit anyway. The fuses you have in there now are only 15 amps."

He said he can replace the existing fuse box with a 220v timer but adding a sub panel would require rewiring everything back to the main panel.

I am not surprised at his findings. Your electrical setup is not to code for a bunch of reasons.

The long term answer is to rewire back to the main panel and get adequate electrical service at the pool pad to meet your future needs.

One 20amp circuit does not do much with modern pool equipment. And a timer is not necessary once you have a VS pump.

You may be able to get away with an IntelliFlo 011056 pump, and IntelliChlor, and an IntelliConnect on one 20 amp 240V circuit. The circuit is loaded close to it's max which is never desirable.

Jumping back to the other thread where you asked about the bonding wire - figured it'd make more sense to discuss it here:

Theres a copper wire that runs down the side of the house and into the fuse box with the main power wire (assuming its coming from the main panel grounding block)
The copper wire is grounded in the fuse box, and a separate copper wire comes out of the bottom of the box and bypasses all of the equipment. It splits at a grounding nut with a coated wire just before going into the dirt shown in attached pic. I'd assume/hope that goes toward the pool?

The exposed copper wire is 90% painted if that makes any difference

I cannot tell what you have from words. That all may be a jury rigged ground wire due to the lack of a ground wire running to your main electrical panel. That is not desirable or to current NEC codes.

Sometimes ground wires and bond wires are interconnected although they should not be.

Bonding vs Grounding

Electricity and water don't mix. Learn a few basic tips how to keep your family safe when dealing with electricity around your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[dan0788]

I cannot tell what you have from words. That all may be a jury rigged ground wire due to the lack of a ground wire running to your main electrical panel. That is not desirable or to current NEC codes.

So hypothetically speaking - say there is some sort of faulty bonding:

Can I do the full pool panel upgrade, and just connect the existing pump to a gfci breaker for added safety? Since thats currently the only electrical component on the pool.

That’ll give me more than enough sub-panel when it's time to upgrade equipment and all bonding can be properly addressed during rebuild?

 

[ajw22]

So hypothetically speaking - say there is some sort of faulty bonding:

Can I do the full pool panel upgrade, and just connect the existing pump to a gfci breaker for added safety? Since thats currently the only electrical component on the pool.

That’ll give me more than enough sub-panel when it's time to upgrade equipment and all bonding can be properly addressed during rebuild?

A good reference for all the electrical requirements for your pool is from Mike Holt Enterprises on Article 680—Swimming Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Fountains, and Similar Installations. Read through it and compare what it describes versus what you have.

Whatever you do will incrementally be better and safer then what you have.

Your pool equipment is grandfathered due to its age but would fail to meet current codes with quite a few items.

 

[dan0788]

Basically what you need is:

• Pentair IntelliFlo 011056 VS pump
• Pentair Intellichlor IC40 SWG
• Whatever pool lights you decide
• Controlled by a Pentair IntelliConnect
• Subpanel has breakers for:
  • Pool Pump & IntelliChlor - GFCI 240V 20A Pentair PA220GF
  • IntelliConnect - 120V 15A CB
  • Pool Lights - as needed
  • Convienece GFCI outlet - 120V 20A CB

I would just do it all at the same time.

And change all the flex PVC on your equipment pad to hard PVC.

In this setup, the IC40 still requires the Pentair Power Center correct? Based on what im reading, the ic40 only needs to be wired to the RS-485 terminal of the intelliconnect just to communicate.

So the PA220GF will supply constant power to both the pump and the swg power center - then the intelliconnect will allow me to adjust the ic40 via the power center connection?

 

[Bill1974]

you might also consider upsizing the service amperage if you are considering a heat pump while your looking to update the electrical

 

[ajw22]

In this setup, the IC40 still requires the Pentair Power Center correct? Based on what im reading, the ic40 only needs to be wired to the RS-485 terminal of the intelliconnect just to communicate.

Yes, cell connects to the Power Center. Power Center connects to CB AC and RS485 data line to IntelliConnect.

So the PA220GF will supply constant power to both the pump and the swg power center - then the intelliconnect will allow me to adjust the ic40 via the power center connection?

Yup.

 

[Tcadwall0]

I have a pentair system (easytouch). Here is what the wiring diagram looks like. The whole panel including controls, but a close-up of the built-in subpanel.

 

[dan0788]

So after much more research, we have a better idea of what we want to do. This season we plan on upgrading the electrical and filter only. The main focus is on safety and clearing the swamp.

In the next few seasons the additional upgrades will be vsp, swg and eventual lighting with the much larger renovation. Automation is not something we feel we need.

My question is - Can I use one of the intermatic panels with a built in timer for all of this? Assuming certain breakers are able to bypass the timer id like to have it as minimal as possible near the equipment pad.

This year all that would be on the panel:
Current single speed pump (timer)
Convenience outlet added with new panel

Next year we will add:
VSP (constant power)
SWG (now using built in timer)
Empty breaker spot for future lighting

Let me know if my though process makes sense here. Thanks!

 

[ajw22]

I still think you should use the IntelliConnect instead of an Intermatic timer. Then no electrical changes will be required when you change to a VSP or add a SWG.

You tell the IntelliConnect you are using a SS pump now and then simply chnage the pump setting when you change to an IntelliFlo VSP. You wire in the IntelliChlor SWG whenever you want with the SS pump or the VSP.

 

[dan0788]

I can see not having to do any wiring changes as a huge benefit but does that really justify using an entire automation system only to be used as a timer?

I haven’t read many good things about the intelliconnect and have no needs for any more expensive alternatives. Just not sure I want to commit to automation AND a very specific product line, when those purchases are a few years out. Right now I need adequate electric and a timer function that can be utilized with the current pump and future swg

 

[ajw22]

You said VSP and SWG are next year.

Folks have been controlling their pool equipment with Intermatic timers for close to 50 years. Should work fine for you for a few years.