Adding Soda Ash

apellegrino8

Active member
Jun 3, 2020
28
Elmsford NY
Pool Size
27500
Surface
Vinyl
For some reason my PH dropped to 7.0 in 2 days.
My bio should have my results, if not
FC 5
CC 0
TA 70 (now 80)
CH 170
CYA 45

App said to add 5 lbs to raise to 7.7 PH and 85ish TA

I added 4 lbs, and the number on my test the day after read what they are supposed to but the water is still cloudy

pump has been on for roughly 30 hours, on a clean filter prior to adding

I do not have a main drain, but I do have a custom return set up where the water pumps forward for the surface, and straight down to the floor of deep and shallow end.

it’s gotten a little clearer throughout today, any idea how long something like this will stay cloudy?
 
Are these your test results from a TF100 or K2006C? Or are they pool store?
Given your list of chemicals used, this doesn't seem like a Trouble Free pool and that might be the reason for the cloudiness.
 
Can you explain why you wouldn’t consider this a trouble free pool? Kinda new to here.
Sure thing - here's some light reading (below), of which you may already know. Essentially - the TFP method revolves around simple chlorine (either liquid or via a SWCG) to sanitize the pool and keep algae at bay. No need to worry about phosphates, clarifiers, etc. Once you get your water properly balanced, most people only add chlorine (if not using a SWCG) and muriatic acid (for pH) from time to time.

I doubt the cloudiness is due to pH. It's likely that your FC is on the low end based on your CYA (round up to 50) and if you're using tabs and shock, the levels are up and down throughout the day and week. I'd recommend bringing the FC to the high end of the FC/CYA range using liquid chlorine and see if your filter can then more effectively remove any dead organics. If you see slight improvement, that would help you know you need to SLAM the pool to get back to clear water.


If I'm missing anything, my apologies. Hope this is at least borderline helpful!
 
Sure thing - here's some light reading (below), of which you may already know. Essentially - the TFP method revolves around simple chlorine (either liquid or via a SWCG) to sanitize the pool and keep algae at bay. No need to worry about phosphates, clarifiers, etc. Once you get your water properly balanced, most people only add chlorine (if not using a SWCG) and muriatic acid (for pH) from time to time.

I doubt the cloudiness is due to pH. It's likely that your FC is on the low end based on your CYA (round up to 50) and if you're using tabs and shock, the levels are up and down throughout the day and week. I'd recommend bringing the FC to the high end of the FC/CYA range using liquid chlorine and see if your filter can then more effectively remove any dead organics. If you see slight improvement, that would help you know you need to SLAM the pool to get back to clear water.


If I'm missing anything, my apologies. Hope this is at least borderline helpful!
I appreciate that and I will check into it. I’m confused though because all of my results for tests are where the app says to be?
I haven’t had a change in chlorine in 3 weeks. I keep the floater full.
The only thing I have added based on the app was 4 lbs of dry stabilizer to bring my CYA from 30-45.
I’ll check it all out tomorrow. Thank you.
 
I appreciate that and I will check into it. I’m confused though because all of my results for tests are where the app says to be?
I haven’t had a change in chlorine in 3 weeks. I keep the floater full.
The only thing I have added based on the app was 4 lbs of dry stabilizer to bring my CYA from 30-45.
I’ll check it all out tomorrow. Thank you.
Looking back 3 weeks ago, your FC was really low. I’d bet you got some algae growth going then, and the slightly higher FC since then has only held it at bay. But it’s there and it’s the dead cells that are creating the cloudiness. Going to SLAM levels should help you clear up pretty quick since it never ended up going green.
One thing to consider, continuing to use pucks continues to raise your CYA. It’s ok now but if you don’t get the algae solved, soon you’ll need more FC for the same effect.
 
Looking back 3 weeks ago, your FC was really low. I’d bet you got some algae growth going then, and the slightly higher FC since then has only held it at bay. But it’s there and it’s the dead cells that are creating the cloudiness. Going to SLAM levels should help you clear up pretty quick since it never ended up going green.
One thing to consider, continuing to use pucks continues to raise your CYA. It’s ok now but if you don’t get the algae solved, soon you’ll need more FC for the same effect.
The levels were low because I was going off of Leslie’s tests after opening the pool Memorial Day. The app had crashed and was frustrating me so I downloaded TFP app.
The number on the app made sense to get to, so I added and adjusted the chemicals as needed. Hadn’t had an issue since.
It’s when I added soda ash to raise to 7.5 that I had the problem.

No algae at all, I vacuum to waste once a week, and have a 0 phosphate count so algae can’t grow quickly. (I know it’s not counted in TFP) but I treat it at the extra small expense.
 

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I e never used liquid chlorine.
If I got a 5 Gallon, what would that change in my maintenance rather then using the triclor?
Unless you get a Stenner pump setup or equivalent, you have to add liquid chlorine manually and regularly (usually no more than every two days).

A lot of people here will add a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG), you add some salt to the pool then the SWCG will produce chlorine from the salt.
 
Unless you get a Stenner pump setup or equivalent, you have to add liquid chlorine manually and regularly (usually no more than every two days).

A lot of people here will add a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG), you add some salt to the pool then the SWCG will produce chlorine from the salt.
So what you are sayin is TFP really only works if you have a SWG?
I mean….why can’t I just maintain everything with the chemicals I have? If I pick the drop down menu with the chemicals in the app it should still work?
 
So what you are sayin is TFP really only works if you have a SWG?
I mean….why can’t I just maintain everything with the chemicals I have? If I pick the drop down menu with the chemicals in the app it should still work?
You can maintain the pool however you want, but results may vary. By using pucks you will build CYA and you’ll either end up in an unsustainable position, or will simply need to dump 50-75% of your water every year or two.
SWCG is the easier way to get around the daily addition of liquid chlorine, but many many people add liquid chlorine daily without issue. A quick 2 minute test every evening, 2 minutes of chemical addition and you’re done. It sounds like a lot of work but it isn’t.
 
You can maintain the pool however you want, but results may vary. By using pucks you will build CYA and you’ll either end up in an unsustainable position, or will simply need to dump 50-75% of your water every year or two.
SWCG is the easier way to get around the daily addition of liquid chlorine, but many many people add liquid chlorine daily without issue. A quick 2 minute test every evening, 2 minutes of chemical addition and you’re done. It sounds like a lot of work but it isn’t.
I’ve been using pucks for 8 years, my CYA only goes up when I do a massive shock.
Only time I’ve had to replace water is when my wife insisted on putting 4 lbs of shock when we opened last year.
Needless to say, I’m not letting her win those battles anymore.

I’m just trying to figure out how come whenever I add soda ash it gets cloudy and takes longer then normal, given everything is on check.
I added a pound of calhypo 73% this morning and it cleared it up good for the most part.
 
So what you are sayin is TFP really only works if you have a SWG?
That is not what I said at all. Here is my pool as of right now, on this rainy Saturday. Crystal clear.
full


Or on March 28th:
full


August 3rd, 2020:
full


July 17th, 2020:
full


Except for at the start of this year after the winter, my pool has always been crystal clear and trouble free. Trouble free doesn't mean maintenance free. No matter what you have there isn't a pool yet that you can hand over to some technology and have everything be perfect and trouble free.

Oh yes, and this pool is maintained with liquid chlorine. Here's my garage last night, cause I'm terrible at breaking boxes down for recycling.
full


I mean….why can’t I just maintain everything with the chemicals I have? If I pick the drop down menu with the chemicals in the app it should still work?
You can, to an extent at least. TFPC doesn't care how the chlorine is added. It only cares that you maintain the FC/CYA at the appropriate ratio at all times. Generally speaking, the continuous use of tablets will lead to an ever increasing CYA level. At a certain point most people will end up with too much CYA, requiring a partial water change.

How fast, or if ever, this happens, depends on how much the tablets are used. Many people come here after using tablets as their sole chlorination method. You appear to be mixing in cal-hypo, so you're not 100% tablets. Many other factors apply. People in freezing climates need to do a partial drain and refill every year. CYA can get eaten by bacteria over the winter. Lots of backwashing and subsequent refilling will dilute CYA, as does lots of rain that causes overflowing or requires draining. Or in your case you said you vacuum to waste every week. So again, not everyone does have a problem with using tablets, it's just that in general, most people have problems using tablets continuously. It may indeed work fine for your particular case.

Your question though was:
For some reason my PH dropped to 7.0 in 2 days.
And my answer was that trichlor is acidic, which seems to be the likely reason your pH was dropping.

So you can certainly use tablets if you maintain the proper FC/CYA ratio, but that won't change the fact that trichlor is acidic. If you want to continue using trichlor as your primary source of chlorine, you could try bumping your TA up higher using baking soda (not washing soda). Higher TA means natural pH rise is faster which can help counter the acidity of the trichlor tablets.

Now, let's discuss the cloudy water. I'm unsure why your pool went cloudy when you added washing soda. However, I'm a bit worried looking at your test results. As @reggiehammond pointed out, your FC was a bit low a few weeks ago. Your last readings are especially worrying. Basically, as I understand, you:
  1. Added washing soda because pH was at 7
  2. Pool became cloudy
  3. Added cal-hypo
  4. Pool started clearing up
  5. CC went from 0 to 2
A cloudy pool that started clearing when chlorine was added, with an immediate jump in CC? That sounds to me like something was growing, causing the cloudy water, and when chlorine was added it started killing that stuff off, making the water more clear, and the CC is an indicator that the chlorine is doing work. At the very least you should perform an OCLT, but I suspect you may need to SLAM. Perhaps @Donldson or @JamesW can verify there wouldn't be any weird chemistry causing the cloudiness after adding washing soda.
 
That is not what I said at all. Here is my pool as of right now, on this rainy Saturday. Crystal clear.
full


Or on March 28th:
full


August 3rd, 2020:
full


July 17th, 2020:
full


Except for at the start of this year after the winter, my pool has always been crystal clear and trouble free. Trouble free doesn't mean maintenance free. No matter what you have there isn't a pool yet that you can hand over to some technology and have everything be perfect and trouble free.

Oh yes, and this pool is maintained with liquid chlorine. Here's my garage last night, cause I'm terrible at breaking boxes down for recycling.
full



You can, to an extent at least. TFPC doesn't care how the chlorine is added. It only cares that you maintain the FC/CYA at the appropriate ratio at all times. Generally speaking, the continuous use of tablets will lead to an ever increasing CYA level. At a certain point most people will end up with too much CYA, requiring a partial water change.

How fast, or if ever, this happens, depends on how much the tablets are used. Many people come here after using tablets as their sole chlorination method. You appear to be mixing in cal-hypo, so you're not 100% tablets. Many other factors apply. People in freezing climates need to do a partial drain and refill every year. CYA can get eaten by bacteria over the winter. Lots of backwashing and subsequent refilling will dilute CYA, as does lots of rain that causes overflowing or requires draining. Or in your case you said you vacuum to waste every week. So again, not everyone does have a problem with using tablets, it's just that in general, most people have problems using tablets continuously. It may indeed work fine for your particular case.

Your question though was:

And my answer was that trichlor is acidic, which seems to be the likely reason your pH was dropping.

So you can certainly use tablets if you maintain the proper FC/CYA ratio, but that won't change the fact that trichlor is acidic. If you want to continue using trichlor as your primary source of chlorine, you could try bumping your TA up higher using baking soda (not washing soda). Higher TA means natural pH rise is faster which can help counter the acidity of the trichlor tablets.

Now, let's discuss the cloudy water. I'm unsure why your pool went cloudy when you added washing soda. However, I'm a bit worried looking at your test results. As @reggiehammond pointed out, your FC was a bit low a few weeks ago. Your last readings are especially worrying. Basically, as I understand, you:
  1. Added washing soda because pH was at 7
  2. Pool became cloudy
  3. Added cal-hypo
  4. Pool started clearing up
  5. CC went from 0 to 2
A cloudy pool that started clearing when chlorine was added, with an immediate jump in CC? That sounds to me like something was growing, causing the cloudy water, and when chlorine was added it started killing that stuff off, making the water more clear, and the CC is an indicator that the chlorine is doing work. At the very least you should perform an OCLT, but I suspect you may need to SLAM. Perhaps @Donldson or @JamesW can verify there wouldn't be any weird chemistry causing the cloudiness after adding washing soda.
Thanks me for this. I’ll check everything out. Just have never had a problem before with cloudy water with the stuff I use, and since I turned to the TFP app this is the second big chemical add other then stabilizer.
The stabilizer math all checked out, just didn’t know why the soda ash did what it did. Hasn’t happened before (for as long as it did) in the short amount of time that it did.
Wife went to Leslie’s to get a reading while I was at work “because I hate cloudy water” (and is impatient letting it clear up)

this is their results

FC 8.71
TC 8.9
PH 7.4
TA 97
CH 152
CYA 54
Iron .1
Phosphates 172
TDS 400

I ordered a powder chlorine kit since I use the drops now.
 
Does this apply -- from Pool School.
After adding Calcium Hypochlorite a user should always wait 24 hours before adding chemicals that would alter their pH. Adjusting pH or Total Alkalinity after adding Calcium Hypochlorite can cause the calcium to temporarily cloud the water.
 
Does this apply -- from Pool School.
After adding Calcium Hypochlorite a user should always wait 24 hours before adding chemicals that would alter their pH. Adjusting pH or Total Alkalinity after adding Calcium Hypochlorite can cause the calcium to temporarily cloud the water.
I added the Cal Hypo 73 well after 24 hours of the soda ash

soda ash 24th morning
Cal hypo 73 26th morning
 
Soda ash is a big hammer when it comes to adding alkalinity (and raising pH). High TA, higher CH, etc can cause clouding.

Best to not use Soda ash. Better is to use baking soda to raise TA (if necessary) and aeration to raise pH.
 

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