Add returns/intakes during remodel?

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Nutloaf

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Jun 7, 2016
17
Lake Balboa, CA
First of all, thank you all for existing and congregating here. I am 3 years into pool ownership and have learned most everything I know from Trouble Free Pool. I've been able to glean everything I've needed so far from previous posts/Pool School -- we are about to start a remodel (mini pebble, tile, coping, correcting electrical to the light), however, and I am having a heck of a time deciding if our plumbing needs to be touched in the process.

I'll include some pictures, but here are the facts: we currently have one skimmer and one return plumbed with PVC, and one main drain that is still plumbed directly to the pad via the original 1950s copper pipe. The pool is 12' x 32', and 8' at the deep end. About 20K gallons, if my maths are correct. We're in SoCal and don't winterize, 1.5hp VS pump... what am I forgetting? I'll include a picture of the equipment.

I am 99% decided on eliminating the main drain -- in addition to safety concerns, the fact is that I never utilize the main drain, and would be modifying (splitting and/or running through the skimmer) it in order for it to sit there unused.

That said, my question is now: do I add anything? The PB first suggested two new returns and a dedicated vacuum line, then just the vacuum line... but the more research I do, the more leery I become of losing suction power if it's split between the vacuum line and the skimmer (that is: if the skimmer won't function when the vacuum line is working, it seems I should just keep using the skimmer port for the vacuum, no?). The vacuum currently stays plugged into the skimmer 24/7, with a Gator AutoSkim in the hose. It runs for about 3 hours at "vacuuming" speed, and about 6 at low speed. I don't really feel the loss of the skimmer -- between the vacuum and the Gator, the top and bottom of the pool are nearly always spotless. Because the vacuum pulls water from the bottom, I am also very happy with circulation and turnover rates for moving chemicals, heat, etc.

THAT said, before I figured out this near-perfect setup, the single return and single skimmer left much to be desired. The skimmer picked up little, and the return definitely leaves some dead spots.

If I want to add anything anywhere except on the same side that the skimmer and single return are on now, that will of course involve breaking concrete. I just don't know if it's worth it. But I also know this is the time to do it.

So... I feel I'm a bit between a rock and a hard place. I have a system I am very happy with, and the pool has been this way for nearly 70 years(!). Minus the vacuum and Gator, however, the pool could admittedly have better circulation. I do have resale value and the like in mind, too.

I'd like to hear some, "If that were my pool, here's what I'd do..." input from some of you that are more experienced than I am. Would you add suction/returns? What would you add? Where would you put them? Am I over-thinking this and should leave well enough alone? Thank you in advance for hopefully pushing me out of this rut... :hammer:

view from steps.jpgview toward steps.jpgreturn port and light.jpgequipment.jpg
 
But it looks so pretty now!!!!!!! I am sure there are flaws I cannot see though so here goes my ideas:

-lose main drain since you have not used it much before BUT know/remember if you would start using it then your water would be more balanced temp wise

-NO suction line for a cleaner! Better to spend that money on a robot cleaner if you want something new to clean with.

Returns- if you can add one or two where you do not have to bust up concrete do so. You can use different eyeballs to help move the water where you want it to go. Maybe one on the other corner and angle it to move the water along that wall.

Let me know your thoughts after reading this and we can tweak it as needed.

Kim:kim:
 
Kim, thank you so much for the reply! I was getting bummed at the lack of responses, so you've made my night!

I like what you are saying a lot, and another return on that far corner that's open to the river rock/dirt makes so much sense. That is exactly where dirt and debris starts slowing down and congregating... I don't know why I hadn't thought of that myself, daggunit! :uhh:

Thanks for the advice on NO suction line -- I wanted to hear someone else say it, haha. I don't see a robot in our future, just because of the water circulation the suction vac provides... or am I missing something with that line of logic?

(Oh, the flaws... some dear angel decided to paint over the dirty old plaster in this pool... what my potato camera phone is not exposing is the dreadful chipping, powdering [took a while to figure out what that white stuff was], and discoloring of the epoxy. And the mismatched, stained tile... oy. I can't wait to have this thing done and done!)

Thank you so so much again -- that return makes SO much sense.
 
Nutloaf, welcome! I am so happy to see another prehistoric pool on here! 70 years old - you have me beat, mine is only 58. Maybe I need to change my moniker to Medieval Pool. Our pools definitely have a family resistance. I even had the Arrow steel shed for my equipment before I started my remodel.

I was faced with a similar situation for my remodel, thread here: Prehistoric Pool Gets Major Remodel in NorCal!

I struggled mightily with the question of tearing out the concrete. One big difference is that you already had PVC pipe. I also had the one return in kind of the worst possible place, on the downwind narrow edge only a few feet from the skimmer. I had all the original copper. That sort of put me over the edge, and we tore it all out. My yard is a big mud pit right now.

I am not an expert. There are others on here who are, and hopefully more will chime in. But I have to say, if you are getting adequate circulation, feel your skimmer is in the right place, and already have PVC, if I were in your place I think I would leave the concrete in place and live with the one return.

Good luck on your remodel. These old girls can look great with a little nip and tuck!
 
I can tell you what I did, and the good and bad of it... In no particular order.

My main drain was not configured to do anything. So I took it out in my recent resurface. Don't miss it. LOVE not looking at it. No stubbed toes. No cleaner hangups. No entrapment issues. Good riddance. So far, no circulation issues. They added eyeballs during the resurface, so I can now better control circulation with those.

The 70-year-old buried copper would be enough to get me to abandon the drain. I just spent a month replacing 30-year-old (above ground!) copper. Maybe it'll last another 70 years. Maybe it'll start leaking in a month! Bye bye possibility, I say!

I had the same exact vacuum vs skimmer issue. But I have a dedicated port. Even though the port was plumbed to the pad, and I had a valve that could balance the skimmer and vacuum, I couldn't get the suction right for either. So I automated the valve with an actuator that puts 100% suction on the port when vacuuming, then returns 100% suction to the skimmer for the rest of the filtering schedule. They now both work great. Combined with automation and a VS pump, each task is now optimized for best performance, best energy efficiency.*

You can solve the vacuuming issue with a robot and get rid of the suction vac. I don't like robots (I don't like the cord), so I'll stick with my suction vac until it dies. Then rethink. Many here love their robots and swear by them.

If I was building a pool, I'd have a vacuum port even if I planned on having a robot. It's convenient for manual vacuuming, should you ever need or want to. And it retains the option for going back to suction vacuuming if you ever wanted to. Would I bust up concrete to add one? Maybe not, depends on the cost.

If you add a vacuum port that is plumbed to the pad, it can later be converted to another return.

Would I add returns if I could? Yes! Circulation = cleaner/clearer water, less cold spots, less prone to algae (circulation doesn't control algae, sanitation does. But ya gotta mix in the chlorine!). If your pool is great now with just one return, then that could be an argument to leave it alone, especially if it was going to be expensive to add returns. But if you ended up with better circulation, that might mean you could run your pump less (and save some money).


* An important note about the suction port. They can potentially be dangerous, especially if plumbed the way I described. If you have 100% suction to a small port like that, and your pump is of adequate strength, not only is entrapment an issue, but that setup can eviscerate a person. Yep. Sorry. But it has happened. So a suction port inside a skimmer is arguably a safer setup. If you have a dedicated suction port, there are safeguards you can deploy (I have several layers of protection), but if the vacuum system is misused, or adjusted incorrectly, AND the safeguards fail, there is a danger. Technically, the suction vacuum head must pose some potential for danger, it is, after all, just an extension of the vacuum port. I don't know if there are any stats on that, or it it's ever hurt anyone. I know my middle one is crazy enough to mess with it. (Which is why my vacuum port is only active at 4:30-6:00am!)

That's a big pool! My kids love my jumping rock. I like my deep end bench. Many here build pools with tanning shelves and beach entries (though I wouldn't). I believe those could all be added in a remodel, especially in a pool of that size.

I LOVE my flagstone (sandstone) coping. It looks fantastic and satisfies my "organic-looking" taste. But it is not a very durable material for a pool. Mine is coming apart and I might eventually have to replace it.

I have river-rock type edge tile. Like small round stones. I love my edge tile. Again, a more organic look. I don't like square tiles, especially the more "frilly" ones.

I just yesterday was able to swim with my new pebble surface. My immediate reaction was a bit of disappointment. It is considerably rougher than my old plaster, which felt fantastic to my skin. Others here have assured me I will get used to the pebble. I hope so. I know it will last a lot longer, which is why I made the trade off. But plaster is nice...

Oh, in my limited real estate experience, and others will agree, a pool adds little to resale value, if any. In my neighborhood, I got a free pool. That might be different where you live, but it's likely kind of universal. It can even impede the sale of a property, as not everyone wants a pool. If you put $15K into your pool right now, you certainly won't be able to ask for an additional $15K for your house. It's not like remodeling a bath or kitchen or adding a room. Point is: do with your pool what makes you happy, it won't likely make any difference in what you might sell your house for someday.
 
My last pool had only floor returns which meant very poor circulation. On top of that, the skimmer was in the deep end but the wind constantly blew debris to the shallow end. Keeping the pool clean was the neverending story. I gave some serious thought to adding wall returns when we replastered, but ultimately it wasn't in the budget (and we sold the house within 2 years anyway). In my case, I had a pretty significant problem that would've been solved by adding returns and/or another skimmer. I don't think it will affect your resale value in the slightest, so just do what you think needs to be done. It certainly wouldn't hurt to have better circulation, but if it isn't a big problem, it probably won't hurt you to skip it. Then again, if you're ever planning on doing it, now's the time. :cool:
 
If your vacuum works as well as it does and that neat "gator" does what it needs to do then stick with it! The robot can be down the road if you ever want to. It sounds like you have it dialed in..........don't fix what is working!

Interesting how a fresh set of eyes can see different things and ideas like the return placement in that corner. I just looked and re-looked and it came to me..........put the return there to keep the water moving. I used ping-pong balls to help me adjust my return for the best flow. The cats love when I do this LOL

Sorry it took someone (me) so long to find your post :hug: We are on it now!

Kim:kim:
 
My only comment is if you can, add more returns. I put 4 in my 16*32 oval pool. The eyeballs are all pointed in the same direction so the water is always moving. Some of the lighter debris gathers toward the center, easier to vac.
 
I can't argue Kim's point, which is basically "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it!" I was pushing for the vacuum port because I like to remove my vac and hose from the pool when guests are over, and not having to deal with the skimmer and whatever gizmo is connecting the hose would be a plus for me. And my vacuum hose floats and tends to collect the lighter floating debris, like a dam. I wouldn't want that dam to be affecting my skimming. My vac port is opposite the skimmer, so I think that's the better location for the start of the hose, as opposed to emanating from the skimmer opening.

I don't know how to design a proper return system, but based on how my pool works, I wouldn't want one return in a corner. I'd want four, one near each corner, but on the flat of the wall, each pointing to the next corner. So that the returns would be pushing the water in one circular direction, like a whirlpool, just as Egghead2004 describes. And after 70 years, you must now know where the wind tends to push all the surface junk. That's where the skimmer should be. Just my guess. I don't know if adding/moving that number of returns and moving your skimmer is in the budget (or even necessary), maybe two returns with eyeballs could get your water circulating enough, but that's maybe something to run by your PB.
 
Pre -- I just read through your thread, thank you for sharing. It's nice to see some other old girls around here amidst all the new builds! I have to say -- I tend to gravitate toward mid-mod pool styles, but I like the finishes you've chosen quite a bit. Old Cali, indeed. Your chlorine test on that sample now has me rethinking our plaster color, though -- we were leaning toward Tropics Blue, but we've also agreed we don't care for grey finishes... and that looks like what Tropics Blue may turn into. Nuuuuuuu! Might need to have a rethink...

Dirk, I read your thread the other day, I think, about your slight disappointment with pebble. Thanks for sharing that -- I hope it goes away. We have some fairly intense games of "watermelon ball" in our pool, and I am simultaneously looking forward to more traction while being afraid of knuckle scrapes. Thanks for the real estate opinion, too -- the reality is, we were so overjoyed to get a pool, I know that I didn't look twice at the finish/ports/plumbing... anything, lol!

Hahaha, this thread has served to "make up my mind" differently with each new post re:new ports. I know there really is no right answer, but how I wish there were! Now I'm taking another look at our concrete and wondering if a return right before the steps would help to keep them clear... and get better movement back to the skimmer out of the shallow end... which I would then want open to gather debris... so then maybe adding a suction port does makes sense. (And then of course my budget-awareness just says IT'S FINE, LEAVE IT ALONE. :drown:)
 

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Just went and sat out there for a bit... Kim, I think you're right that another return would actually give me enough circulation to ditch the vac for a robot in the future. I really love how much the deep end moves. I'm gonna sit with this idea of putting a return right before the steps. It would be a little more concrete breakage, but not much (since our rocks continue around that side)... for what is potentially a LOT more flexibility in the future.
 
But did you notice how cloudy the water was in that video! Yuck!

It wouldn’t help your surface circulation, but you may be able to convert your main drain to a return with some modifications.
 
I’m also in SoCal, my pool is at least 50 years old. The way my setup was, the old skimmer didn’t do much and was in a bad location, the skimmer and main drain still had the original copper lines then joined with pvc below the equipment pad. I had 3 returns with 1 inch copper coming into my shallow end, no matter how much I tried I couldn’t get much flow. What i did, I left the main drain copper plumbing which they put a nice pebble cover on that’s also supposed to be safer than the old ones. I connected that copper to 2 inch pvc all the way to the pad, i moved the skimmer over by the far end of the deep side where I have a bunch of neighbors trees, so far it’s worked great picking up tons of debris, ran 2 inch pvc all the way to the pad so skimmer and main drain have their own jandy valve and I can close or open them. I replumbed all 3 returns so they are 1.5 pvc about a foot before entering the pool and they are connected to 2 inch pvc back to the pad. All 3 returns now have the proper amount of flow plus adjustable eyeball fittings that can be directed anywhere. I can turn the pool into roaring rapids now.

My advice overall is, leave the main drain, it won’t do any harm, connect it to 2 inch pvc as close to the pool as you can, if it leads to the skimmer I would definitely split them, ditch the vacuum line I didn’t get it done and so far hasn’t been an issue, my neighbor has one and doesn’t use it. The more returns the better, if you have the knowledge or time to do some of the plumbing work i would do it, I saved myself thousands and my plumbing has ran without a hitch for a year now, according to my builders plumber who inspected my work he said I did a great job and the key is purple primer.
 
Erdons said:
I’m also in SoCal, my pool is at least 50 years old. The way my setup was, the old skimmer didn’t do much and was in a bad location, the skimmer and main drain still had the original copper lines then joined with pvc below the equipment pad.
Click to expand...

Oooh, you have me thinking I should actually check that my skimmer line is all PVC, and not just joined with copper underground somewhere -- I'll take the opportunity to do that when everything is ripped up.

Erdons said:
The more returns the better, if you have the knowledge or time to do some of the plumbing work i would do it, I saved myself thousands
Click to expand...

I do have the PVC know-how (learned that real quick with a solar heat install, ha), but wouldn't feel comfortable interrupting the builders between demo and remodel to insert myself, I don't think?

I just paged through your whole remodel and HOLY BEJEEZUS. Good work. How is the color of your pebble holding up a year later? We are pretty much settled on Tropics Blue as well, but the blue fading is the one thing that I'm worried about.

I love your description of "roaring rapids" -- I am going to go for that one more return, at the very least, to get some more movement and sparkle in the shallow end.

- - - Updated - - -

bmoreswim said:
But did you notice how cloudy the water was in that video! Yuck!

It wouldn’t help your surface circulation, but you may be able to convert your main drain to a return with some modifications.
Click to expand...

Hahaha -- ours starts clear and then slowly gets that cloudy due to the powdering on this paint rubbing off into the water with all the jostling. I can't wait to have a game that starts AND ends with being able to see the ball (assuming blood from pebble scrapes doesn't cloud the water, lol).

I'd probably convert the drain if I didn't have that copper piping that needs to go. I just don't wanna deal, if I'm honest.
 
Some thoughts regarding robots:

1. It has a cord but it's smaller than the hose of a vacuum cleaner. If you're ok with the hose then the cord should be a non-issue. My M500 has a thin cord about same the thickness of an average man's thumb.

2. My M500 also helps with circulation. You might find a robot that increases the circulation more than the cleaner you're enjoying. There is an exhaust fan that shoots water through the robot out of the port creating the suction that "pulls" the water (and debris) through the filters back into the pool.

3. I LOVE my robot. Hands-down the best investment for the pool we've made. I run it almost constantly. We get significant dust storms out here in the desert and I'm also on the tail end of not quite a week long SLAM where the robot has been pulling crud out of the pool diligently every few hours round the clock. My pool went from a swamp to crystal clear in a matter of days in large part due to the robot. One important point to note about a suction cleaner is that it cleans through your large filter as compared to a robot with its own filtration system. That's one less thing to maintain as frequently (and it's a much more extensive process to break down my DE filter than my M500's filter cartridges).

4. I have swam in lots and lots of people's pools with suction vacuums. In fact, I'm the only person I know with a robot. The vacs seem to always be left in the pools, even during parties. Maybe they're burdensome to store or it's just laziness, but it seems near universal. I don't like the way they look in the pool and I don't enjoy swimming around them like a big obstacle course. My robot, on the other hand, is pretty inconspicuous. I often can't even tell it's running or even in the pool. In fact, earlier today I left the gate open and I heard some swimming noises and gurgling/splashing and I came around from the pad expecting to see my lab trying out the freshly maintained/cleaned up pool but it was my forgotten robot dutifully cleaning the tile line...my robot has a tile line cleaning setting and an ultra clean setting and floor only or walls only settings, too. It's expensive, but like I said well worth it and I have read lots of people sharing the same sentiment and have not read one person write they regret the purchase.
 

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