This is interesting to me...Run53 is also swg, and MM appears to be maintaining for him.
Run53 - since switching to swg this year, I've started making distinctions between swg treatment and non SWG treatments, but perhaps I don't need to
I'm learning as I go on these things.
N240, I think we still need to get a read on your level, but one of the things I liked about the ease of the Metal Magic sponge test was you just weighed down the sponge and however long it took to remove the stain dictated the treatment level. I also found it easy because of the application at 7.6 ph.
Here's the info on the sponge test: http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
Now, to you both, just wanna say I'm a fellow experimenter here, so a few caveats as you consider treatment options...this is complicated to explain, but bear with me, because I don't wanna cause any unintended consequences with my advice:
In my own pool, on a well, with super high residual phosphate level from years of metal treatment (40,000 ppb) and other environmental factors, I have been experimenting in running my swg but was concerned about phosphate scaling, which is a weird occasional thing theorized to happen at a certain combo of very high levels that I had read about and that chem geek and I had previously discussed.
So far, its running like a champ. Its a Hayward Aqua rite t15.
Most of us on TFP now know that pool store chatter about phosphates is moot because chlorine kills algae at the right 7.5% in non swg, 5% swg) level. Further, removal products only work on orthophosphates, NOT organic phosphates, the latter of which can still feed algae IF THERE'S NO CHLORINE I never once got algae at my high po4 level!
However, when it comes to scale formation, in the boiler industry, there is some data about phosphate scaling when you're in the 10s of thousands range and have calcium.
But Pentair has recently added "500 ppb orthophosphate" to its "ideal water parameters" that its warranty is based on for SWG. Frankly, some municipal water systems can have po4 almost this high due to water treatment.
1 bottle of Metal Magic contains 500 ppm polyphosphate (or so the tech told me), which could in theory over time break down into orthophosphate. Jacks I believe is even higher, since maintenance is 10-12 ppm which equals 10-12,000 ppb.
The irony here is that many swg folks find they need stain and scale control products and HEDP is by far the best. So I find Pentair's guideline a bit riddiculous.
With all of that said, there's just not very much hard data in the industry about this, and there's a lot of "boogeyman man" misinformation being espoused even by the customer service reps at places like Hayward. (I know, I called
So if you decide to treat with Jacks or Metal Magic, and for any reason you later call your mfg for support, you might be told to check your phosphates.
Pool phosphate tests don't even go high enough to accurately read the levels of a high-load user like me, as I've discovered (now using a high limit Hanna meter.) So you'd be better off ignoring that kind of advice and just making them test the cell at an authorized test center. Or if your level is low enough to read, you could treat to remove annually, which some posters have mentioned doing.
Its not the "polyphosphate" itself...its when it breaks down it reverts to its base orthophosphate. Jacks tech told me that calcium helps carry out spent levels...I'm low calcium, so maybe that's why it builds up in my pool. But even Jacks admitted that in 4-6 weeks he's seen a build up in 1200 ppb range.
So far, based on other users who've been using these sequestrants for years without cell scaling problems, and in my own test to date (just a few weeks) with uber high levels, I'd say that the benefits of stain treatment far outweigh the still rather theoretical risk of phosphate scaling on a cell. I could be singing a different song by the end of the season
But I felt it necessary to clue you into my odd little research project here so that
a) you could chose a high vol treatment fully informed and
b) so that if you later encounter any cell function issues and are given a customer service line about phosphates you were armed with at least my cursory information and some knowledge about the very tiny grain of possible but unlikely truth
Run53 - since switching to swg this year, I've started making distinctions between swg treatment and non SWG treatments, but perhaps I don't need to
I'm learning as I go on these things.N240, I think we still need to get a read on your level, but one of the things I liked about the ease of the Metal Magic sponge test was you just weighed down the sponge and however long it took to remove the stain dictated the treatment level. I also found it easy because of the application at 7.6 ph.
Here's the info on the sponge test: http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
Now, to you both, just wanna say I'm a fellow experimenter here, so a few caveats as you consider treatment options...this is complicated to explain, but bear with me, because I don't wanna cause any unintended consequences with my advice:
In my own pool, on a well, with super high residual phosphate level from years of metal treatment (40,000 ppb) and other environmental factors, I have been experimenting in running my swg but was concerned about phosphate scaling, which is a weird occasional thing theorized to happen at a certain combo of very high levels that I had read about and that chem geek and I had previously discussed.
So far, its running like a champ. Its a Hayward Aqua rite t15.
Most of us on TFP now know that pool store chatter about phosphates is moot because chlorine kills algae at the right 7.5% in non swg, 5% swg) level. Further, removal products only work on orthophosphates, NOT organic phosphates, the latter of which can still feed algae IF THERE'S NO CHLORINE
I never once got algae at my high po4 level!However, when it comes to scale formation, in the boiler industry, there is some data about phosphate scaling when you're in the 10s of thousands range and have calcium.
But Pentair has recently added "500 ppb orthophosphate" to its "ideal water parameters" that its warranty is based on for SWG. Frankly, some municipal water systems can have po4 almost this high due to water treatment.
1 bottle of Metal Magic contains 500 ppm polyphosphate (or so the tech told me), which could in theory over time break down into orthophosphate. Jacks I believe is even higher, since maintenance is 10-12 ppm which equals 10-12,000 ppb.
The irony here is that many swg folks find they need stain and scale control products and HEDP is by far the best. So I find Pentair's guideline a bit riddiculous.
With all of that said, there's just not very much hard data in the industry about this, and there's a lot of "boogeyman man" misinformation being espoused even by the customer service reps at places like Hayward. (I know, I called
So if you decide to treat with Jacks or Metal Magic, and for any reason you later call your mfg for support, you might be told to check your phosphates.
Pool phosphate tests don't even go high enough to accurately read the levels of a high-load user like me, as I've discovered (now using a high limit Hanna meter.) So you'd be better off ignoring that kind of advice and just making them test the cell at an authorized test center. Or if your level is low enough to read, you could treat to remove annually, which some posters have mentioned doing.
Its not the "polyphosphate" itself...its when it breaks down it reverts to its base orthophosphate. Jacks tech told me that calcium helps carry out spent levels...I'm low calcium, so maybe that's why it builds up in my pool. But even Jacks admitted that in 4-6 weeks he's seen a build up in 1200 ppb range.
So far, based on other users who've been using these sequestrants for years without cell scaling problems, and in my own test to date (just a few weeks) with uber high levels, I'd say that the benefits of stain treatment far outweigh the still rather theoretical risk of phosphate scaling on a cell. I could be singing a different song by the end of the season
But I felt it necessary to clue you into my odd little research project here so that
a) you could chose a high vol treatment fully informed and
b) so that if you later encounter any cell function issues and are given a customer service line about phosphates you were armed with at least my cursory information and some knowledge about the very tiny grain of possible but unlikely truth
