AA Mfg Pop-up Cleaners Not Rotating

jonpcar

Bronze Supporter
Jun 1, 2016
204
0
Gilbert, AZ
#21
Ouch, throw out my “analysis” of your system...it was based on the high gpm. I’m with Bama Rambler (and you), your new pump is definitely a smaller horsepower than your old one. The actual GPM number is probably much lower than 95gpm. One reviewer on amazon for your pump indicated a significant drop in gpm when they used it to replace a similar rated pump in their system (they had a flow measuring device)...I would post but I can’t find it again. There are no pump curves available for your pump so it would be difficult to find the real gpm. Mas985 would be one who might have an answer.

Found the review...

........
It works (so far), but with conditions. I purchased a used one from Amazon warehouse, if came in with original box and packing materials, looked new except it was not prewired for 230.. no problem. I could have looked it over real good before installing because after firing it up and troubleshooting air leakage I found a crack in the housing guess I just found why someone returned it. I siliconed the crack and up and running with low air leakage. I have a flow meter on my pool equipment (if you don’t and do your own maintance... GET ONE). With my Pentair WhisperFlow 2hp my flow is 88 to 90 GPM, with the 2 hp Xtremepower pump I’m getting 60 GPM, no other changes. Needles to say I will be rebuilding the WhisperFlow PDQ. Would I purchase again, for what I did and needed No, I would have just purchased all the parts to rebuild my failing WhisperFlow because I did not realize how inefficient this pump was. Good luck all
.......

Joe, if this is the case, there is no way to raise the PSI in your system without a bigger pump. My IFCS is one of the early versions and was thrown together by the installers...even though it has some deficiencies, I believe that they overdesigned some aspects of the system so that I have more leeway on my PSI. For instance, there are only 2 popups on most of my zones...except for ones with the steps.

Your system sounds to me like it is “just” operating at 14psi (max pressure of filter). If it continues to work for you, that actually is the most energy efficient spot for its operation. However the two issues you will have to keep an eye on are (1) the “throw” of your popups (are they actually sweeping and “cleaning” your pool floor and walls to your satisfaction) and (2) as your popups “wear” just a little bit, do they stop rotating? There may not be enough pressure in your system to make these “slightly worn” popups operate correctly.

If I were you, I would give it a go and see how it works out.


 

mas985

TFP Expert
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May 3, 2007
12,120
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Pleasanton, CA
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#22
I would agree with everyone that the pump is likely too small for the application. But I am a bit confused about the history. Was the entire pump replaced or just the motor? If just the motor was replaced, pump performance should be exactly the same as before. If the entire pump was replaced, then it is probably the cause. What is the pump make/model?
 
Dec 30, 2018
18
0
Phx AZ
#23
Found the review...
........
It works (so far), but with conditions. I purchased a used one from Amazon warehouse, if came in with original box and packing materials, looked new except it was not prewired for 230.. no problem. I could have looked it over real good before installing because after firing it up and troubleshooting air leakage I found a crack in the housing guess I just found why someone returned it. I siliconed the crack and up and running with low air leakage. I have a flow meter on my pool equipment (if you don’t and do your own maintance... GET ONE). With my Pentair WhisperFlow 2hp my flow is 88 to 90 GPM, with the 2 hp Xtremepower pump I’m getting 60 GPM, no other changes. Needles to say I will be rebuilding the WhisperFlow PDQ. Would I purchase again, for what I did and needed No, I would have just purchased all the parts to rebuild my failing WhisperFlow because I did not realize how inefficient this pump was. Good luck all
.......
Thanks for providing the review info Jon. If the pump is truly 1/3 less efficient than my Whisperflow then It would be seeing PSI around 20 but mine is about half that (~10). I'm hoping it's sometime really silly like a miswire. I couldn't read the terminal markings on the motor until I attached a picture in my previous post. If it isn't a miswire than I have one more option instead of buying another pump. I have a waterfall with a 2HP whisperflow that has more HP than it needs so I could swap motors and put the stronger one on the pool. It would mean replumbing to accommodate the different size pumps but it's a lot cheaper option. I'll dig into it this Saturday and let you know what I decided.
 

jonpcar

Bronze Supporter
Jun 1, 2016
204
0
Gilbert, AZ
#24
Joe, unfortunately there is not a linear relationship between gpm, horsepower ratings, efficiency, psi, etc. mas985 is the most knowledgeable expert on these boards for issues like this (thx for checking in on this issue, Mark). Use him if you can...I don’t think it’s a wiring issue unless there is a 120 vs 220 hookup problem...

mark asked about about your new pump model...he might know off the bat what your issue is. From the one post with your signature (I think there is a box to check to include your signature on every post), it seems that your new pump was an XtremepowerUS 2hp, did you buy it at HomeDepot?? Other places sell it as well including amazon. Is this the link?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Xtremep...ump-220-110-Dual-Volt-1-Phase-75035/305176683

I’m out of my knowledge level with pump issues...use mas985 and others on this thread to help you resolve this issue...I learned a lot from all of them in my postings. Good luck.
 

mas985

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 3, 2007
12,120
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Pleasanton, CA
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#25
When replacing pumps for spas, waterfalls and in-floors, you want to match the performance of the old pump, assuming it is working the way you want it to. You can't do this by just looking at HP. It is not a very good indicator of pump performance. You need to compare head curves between pumps to determine if the new pump will work in a particular application. So if your old pump worked fine, you need to look at the pump's head curve compared to your new pump or any other replacement pump. So again, what was the old pump model that worked ok?

BTW, if it were a wiring issue, the motor would either trip the breaker or run extremely rough and you would know something is wrong right away.
 
Dec 30, 2018
18
0
Phx AZ
#26
When replacing pumps for spas, waterfalls and in-floors, you want to match the performance of the old pump, assuming it is working the way you want it to. You can't do this by just looking at HP. It is not a very good indicator of pump performance. You need to compare head curves between pumps to determine if the new pump will work in a particular application. So if your old pump worked fine, you need to look at the pump's head curve compared to your new pump or any other replacement pump. So again, what was the old pump model that worked ok?

BTW, if it were a wiring issue, the motor would either trip the breaker or run extremely rough and you would know something is wrong right away.
New motor is Extreme Power model # X5035 purchased through Amazon.
A head curve was not provided in the owners manual.
Old motor was a Whisperflow 2HP (not sure of the model).
I was thinking the motor could have been wired for 110V. Will take a look tomorrow.
 
Dec 30, 2018
18
0
Phx AZ
#27
When replacing pumps for spas, waterfalls and in-floors, you want to match the performance of the old pump, assuming it is working the way you want it to. You can't do this by just looking at HP. It is not a very good indicator of pump performance. You need to compare head curves between pumps to determine if the new pump will work in a particular application. So if your old pump worked fine, you need to look at the pump's head curve compared to your new pump or any other replacement pump. So again, what was the old pump model that worked ok?

BTW, if it were a wiring issue, the motor would either trip the breaker or run extremely rough and you would know something is wrong right away.
Appears the motor is wired correctly. I would share photos but having difficulty uploading them for some reason. I'm surprised the new motor is running at a much lower pressure. The only difference is the new motor SF is 0.1 less than the previous motor. Would that alone cause the PSI to drop by 20?
 

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mas985

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 3, 2007
12,120
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Pleasanton, CA
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#28
Appears the motor is wired correctly. I would share photos but having difficulty uploading them for some reason. I'm surprised the new motor is running at a much lower pressure. The only difference is the new motor SF is 0.1 less than the previous motor. Would that alone cause the PSI to drop by 20?
There are two parts to a residential pool pump, the wet end (i.e. pump head) and the motor. These are usually sold together as one item and what you are referring to as the motor pressure I suspect you mean the pump pressure.

Also, it is not the motor that determines pump performance, it is the wet end design that determines the pump performance and more specifically, the head curve of the pump. The motor has little to do with the pump's head curve. However, the motor is sized to the pump head but it is sometimes over-sized and the reason you cannot use the motor size to size a pump. There is only a very loose correlation between the two.

Without a head curve, it is impossible to know for sure what the performance of this pump should be but given your situation, I suspect it is a very low head pump and will not work well with your in-floor system. The 2 HP Whisperflo is a high head pump and well suited for in-floor cleaners. Do you still have the Whisperflo? You could just replace the motor of that pump.
 
Dec 30, 2018
18
0
Phx AZ
#32
There are two parts to a residential pool pump, the wet end (i.e. pump head) and the motor. These are usually sold together as one item and what you are referring to as the motor pressure I suspect you mean the pump pressure.

Also, it is not the motor that determines pump performance, it is the wet end design that determines the pump performance and more specifically, the head curve of the pump. The motor has little to do with the pump's head curve. However, the motor is sized to the pump head but it is sometimes over-sized and the reason you cannot use the motor size to size a pump. There is only a very loose correlation between the two.

Without a head curve, it is impossible to know for sure what the performance of this pump should be but given your situation, I suspect it is a very low head pump and will not work well with your in-floor system. The 2 HP Whisperflo is a high head pump and well suited for in-floor cleaners. Do you still have the Whisperflo? You could just replace the motor of that pump.
Mark I actually still have the old whisperflo pump (see attached) but not the front plate though. pump | J Resolk | Flickr

I thought it was the same SF as my waterfall pump of 1.1 but its actually 1.3 SF. Not sure how the SF plays into the overall performance but the Whisperflo actually created too much pressure. When the system got above 30 psi the pop-up heads stayed up all the time. Given that I think it could be dialed back a bit and I'm thinking a good median range for my pool would be around 20 PSI. The 10 psi I'm getting now aren't rotating some of the pop-ups (we suspect).

What are your recommendations at this time - 1) try to use the old Whisperflo pump with my new motor, 2) find a different pump to work with the new motor 3) swap my waterfall pump motor with the pool pump motor or 4) buy a new motor and pump combination? I would like to avoid spending $700-800 on a new whisperflo though.
 

Bama Rambler

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
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Jun 23, 2009
22,793
4
105
SouthWest Alabama
#33
I'm not Mark, and maybe he has a different opinion, but I think I'd swap the waterfall pump in there to see how it performed before doing much of anything else. That would be a pretty inexpensive test to see how it worked.
 

mas985

TFP Expert
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May 3, 2007
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Pleasanton, CA
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#34
I'm not Mark, and maybe he has a different opinion, but I think I'd swap the waterfall pump in there to see how it performed before doing much of anything else. That would be a pretty inexpensive test to see how it worked.
JoeKlo: If you still have the old Whisperflo wet end, you would not have to uninstall the waterfall Whisperflo wet end. Just remove the motor with the impeller attached and install it in the old wet end (with diffuser). You will need to remove the X5035 end anyway since that clearly does not work. Then if that works ok, you will just need a new impeller and new motor to drive that pump. You may be able to use the X5035 motor on the Whisperflo wet end but it may overheat.
 
Dec 30, 2018
18
0
Phx AZ
#35
JoeKlo: If you still have the old Whisperflo wet end, you would not have to uninstall the waterfall Whisperflo wet end. Just remove the motor with the impeller attached and install it in the old wet end (with diffuser). You will need to remove the X5035 end anyway since that clearly does not work. Then if that works ok, you will just need a new impeller and new motor to drive that pump. You may be able to use the X5035 motor on the Whisperflo wet end but it may overheat.
The whisperflo wet ends are different sizes. I don't have the pump cover on the old whisperflo and I think the waterfall whisperflo is going to be a different but I'll check. if they are the same I will proceed. If not then maybe I'll swap motors. I'm thinking the Xtreme Power system should be adequate for the waterfall. What I'm more unsure about is if the whisperflo waterfall pump will provide adequate pressure because the wet end is physically much smaller even though the HP is the same. I agree matching the X5035 with the old whisperflo wet end could result in an overheat condition due to the differences between the SF (1.0 vs. 1.3).
 
Dec 30, 2018
18
0
Phx AZ
#37
If the wet ends are physically different, then one of them is not a WhisperFlo. All WhisperFlos use the same housing. Can you post pictures of both?

The smaller one may be a SuperFlo.
Mark you are correct as I was mistaken it was a Whisperflo. See attached photo. If you zoom in you can see the Pinnacle label on the wet end. Any idea if this would work for my in-floor cleaning system?

pool pump | J Resolk | Flickr

old wet pump below:
pump | J Resolk | Flickr
 

mas985

TFP Expert
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May 3, 2007
12,120
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Pleasanton, CA
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#38
The Pinnacle series is a different pump line than the Whisperflo line so i don't believe any of the parts are compatible. If you want to try the Pinnacle you can but it might be better to just use the entire pump. But that means a lot of plumbing changes and given the pump is not in the greatest of shape, it might be better just to get a new pump. If the WFE-8 was too much power, then the WFE-6 might be a better choice. Also, you might want to go with a two speed to improve efficiency when not using the in-floors. But if you only would use full speed, then just stick with the single speed. I would have suggested just putting a new motor and impeller on the WFE-8 but the condition does not look that great.
 

chiefwej

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TFP Guide
Jun 12, 2011
3,219
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Tucson
#39
This is where VS pumps excel. You can dial in the exact power needed for any task. More expensive upfront, but economy of operation and flexibility can’t be beat.
 
Dec 30, 2018
18
0
Phx AZ
#40
The Pinnacle series is a different pump line than the Whisperflo line so i don't believe any of the parts are compatible. If you want to try the Pinnacle you can but it might be better to just use the entire pump. But that means a lot of plumbing changes and given the pump is not in the greatest of shape, it might be better just to get a new pump. If the WFE-8 was too much power, then the WFE-6 might be a better choice. Also, you might want to go with a two speed to improve efficiency when not using the in-floors. But if you only would use full speed, then just stick with the single speed. I would have suggested just putting a new motor and impeller on the WFE-8 but the condition does not look that great.
Two speed isn't practical as I'm running the in-floors 100% when the motors on and the pool gets pretty dusty in AZ. The WFE-8 is damaged and should be replaced. Is there a more affective wet end that will work with the X5035 motor and if so what? If I need to replace the wet end and motor what's a reasonably price one you would recommend?