New Pool Build with Grotto/Slide/Waterfall- Temecula, Ca
- Thread starter justinfrancisjudd
- Start date
- Status
Coming along nicely, the pool builder prefers to have his equipment all in place before pressure testing everything and getting the inspector out. We have the permits and everything otherwise needed in hand and ready to go to shoot. I specifically wrote in the two pumps and heater models, along with all the other equipment, in the contract specifically because they had extra safety, efficiency, and longevity features. The pumps had safety features for my kids and hopefully the different heat xchanger in the heater will give it longer life then the copper xchanger with the SWCG.
So any how they delivered the equipment and its not what I ordered, surprise surprise.... and of course they didn't check it either because I'm sure they would have put those in and not said anything, so I said take it back and get what i ordered. We have been on a holding pattern since then, the steel and plumbing are done minus equipment connections and the copper to ground out the walls of the pool.
They wont just plumb the lines together and pressure test it without the equipment because of the "added cost". Their problem not mine as its rained twice now and the steel in areas has to be re dug in a lot of areas to get it back to the code for shotcrete and inspection so their adding costs to themselves. It would have been better for them to stub it and get things moving along get it done sooner then later and their here today to get all that back to code and it looks like at least 3 hours of digging by hand to clear out the deep end corners around the steel
It was a good thing in all honesty as last week I worked 9 of 11 days on 24 hr shifts so I didn't have a chance to get caught up on what I needed to do last few weeks. last two days we picked out all the quartzite and stacked stone, got extra electrical conduit run for landscape lighting, all my hose bibs reconnected that were throughout the perimeter of the yard and lines were broken from the dig, all my irrigation lines replaced and repaired, fire pit gas line re ran and connected, existing waterfall electric and water reconnected too, just got to clean it back up now that its been sitting with no circulation for 2 weeks. So the delay was a good thing for me
. If I ever do another pool at another house down the road I will be **** sure that is all in the contract. I did it all myself for around 300 bucks and the plumber wanted 800 just for the gas line that costs .50 cents a foot and they claim I can't buy at Home depot etc for less then $7 a foot... its good to know how to do these things for sure because it saved me 1000's.But now its time to get some shotcrete in this baby!! All my needs that run through the pool wall are complete. Hopefully this Thursday or next Monday at the latest we will have it shot. We shall see if they decide to stub the plumbing and get it tested or wait.
You did good with writing in the stuff in the contract. It sure saved you a lot of money and heartache.
Did you by chance look at the stuff they brought? Just how much money would they have "made" off you if you did not catch it? At least now they know you are watching them!
Kim
Did you by chance look at the stuff they brought? Just how much money would they have "made" off you if you did not catch it? At least now they know you are watching them!
Kim
It wouldn't have been much but maybe a few hundred bucks on the equipment, but in the long run hopefully not having to replace the heat exchanger will save me some money and the pumps i wanted really are no different then the added safety features. But hey if it was in the super expensive contract I expect it done right unless your making me a much better deal with a different product or its no longer being made
Until the plumbing is done right though with equipment, or stubbed and ready for inspection, they don't get paid so I'm sure thats part of the wait to shoot
So I'm still somewhat concerned with the returns to the pool as they gate down to very small lines, anyone that can share their words of wisdom id really appreciate it, i know most seem to think it will be fine but I have 3" in my contract so it seems that should be the feed all the way around the pool to me for the returns and gate accordingly at each head, also why wouldn't this line loop like the spa? it t's when it hits the pool and ends with about 1/6 of the pool between the two with no returns on the wall there.
-The waterfall grotto/slide is 3" suc (by spa wall) and return all the way to water feature - Made perfect sense
-The Spa is 3" suc and return is 3" to the spa wall then it gates to a 2" for the loop and down accordingly at the jets - made perfect sense
-The pool is where I'm concerned. I only have a partial infloor system PV3, all 2" lines from the pump to the water valve to the 13 heads which are cycled off of the 6 valves with only 2-3 heads unning at a time- this makes perfect sense, but this is not my primary source of circulation for the pool or efficiency as it operates under higher pressure at the pv3 heads for cleaning circulation.
The suction from the pool main drains and skimmer is 3" as per contract. - Made perfect sense.
The return however is only 3" to the pool wall by the spa (25 feet), there it T's and gates to a 2" and then as it goes around the poolfor maybe 15 feet and then it gates to 1 1/2 and 1" at the farthest point, heads off of those according. This was very concerning to me.
Why not run 3, 2 1/2, or 2 all the way around the pool and gate it down accordingly at the wall where the inlets feed into the pool for circulation? I have 3" returns in my contract, and technically he did give me a partial 3" return but its not what I was after for pump efficiency. Is that not how it should have been done, it seems there would be plenty of pressure created at each head to the pool even if the pipe were 3" and gated to 1 1/2 or 1" at the head. the builder says this is how it must be done, which i doubt, and its 3" in my contract so I'm more then glad to tell him to rip it out and fix it before the shotcrete, this is a expensive project I want it right the first time. Hope some of you can help me out there??? or tell me I'm crazy
I have a 2hp VS Jandy E Pump with SVRT for the pool and spa circulation- the flow charts call for 3" piping for suctions and returns, the only thing that it never shows is when the pipes should gate down or the size of the return heads at the pool which seem to be at the wall 1 to 1 1/2 standard to create pressure for the circulation. Help me out ladies and gents...
Thanks a million in advance!
-Justin
-The waterfall grotto/slide is 3" suc (by spa wall) and return all the way to water feature - Made perfect sense
-The Spa is 3" suc and return is 3" to the spa wall then it gates to a 2" for the loop and down accordingly at the jets - made perfect sense
-The pool is where I'm concerned. I only have a partial infloor system PV3, all 2" lines from the pump to the water valve to the 13 heads which are cycled off of the 6 valves with only 2-3 heads unning at a time- this makes perfect sense, but this is not my primary source of circulation for the pool or efficiency as it operates under higher pressure at the pv3 heads for cleaning circulation.
The suction from the pool main drains and skimmer is 3" as per contract. - Made perfect sense.
The return however is only 3" to the pool wall by the spa (25 feet), there it T's and gates to a 2" and then as it goes around the poolfor maybe 15 feet and then it gates to 1 1/2 and 1" at the farthest point, heads off of those according. This was very concerning to me.
Why not run 3, 2 1/2, or 2 all the way around the pool and gate it down accordingly at the wall where the inlets feed into the pool for circulation? I have 3" returns in my contract, and technically he did give me a partial 3" return but its not what I was after for pump efficiency. Is that not how it should have been done, it seems there would be plenty of pressure created at each head to the pool even if the pipe were 3" and gated to 1 1/2 or 1" at the head. the builder says this is how it must be done, which i doubt, and its 3" in my contract so I'm more then glad to tell him to rip it out and fix it before the shotcrete, this is a expensive project I want it right the first time. Hope some of you can help me out there??? or tell me I'm crazy
I have a 2hp VS Jandy E Pump with SVRT for the pool and spa circulation- the flow charts call for 3" piping for suctions and returns, the only thing that it never shows is when the pipes should gate down or the size of the return heads at the pool which seem to be at the wall 1 to 1 1/2 standard to create pressure for the circulation. Help me out ladies and gents...
Thanks a million in advance!
-Justin
n240sxguy
Well-known member
I don't know about a pool, but I know sprinkler systems in buildings always neck down multiple times like that to maintain pressure. Unless I'm missing something, I'd think he has it right to maintain enough pressure at each jet to have proper circulation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks!
Any other opinions, Ive had a few others that I pm'd say they would have had larger lines around and then had the heads at the size they need at that point. Again its in my contract and nows the time to make it right before we shoot, Hydraulics wise the smaller the pipe/hose the more friction loss= higher pump pressure and rpms to get the gpm at the heads needed for the circulation. Thus why I see a larger line as better as the end pressure at the heads is better at lower rpms with minimal efficiency(friction) loss. But i see the making pressure build up for circulation side too the n240sxguy is mentioning but it would seem the same is achieved either way? one just requiring more pump pressure?
The correct heater showed up yesterday and the pumps did also, only thing they're the exact same base model as before! Plumber comes again tomorrow and one way or another the system is getting charged, city inspection next Monday and we shoot Tuesday or Wednesday. Finally! Then I can start burying some trenches and getting my yard back in order from the destruction
These guys know how to break stuff I swear all my bushes sprinkler valves etc that were no where even near the construction areas are all destroyed and broken now too
These guys know how to break stuff I swear all my bushes sprinkler valves etc that were no where even near the construction areas are all destroyed and broken now too
WOW! The same model you have already sent back? I wonder if they are the SAME pumps as last time. Maybe they were hoping you would not check!
Breakage Why? I guess since it is not their stuff............but so sad.
Kim
Breakage
Why? I guess since it is not their stuff............but so sad.Kim
No they are definitely new pumps because the other two are still sitting on my patio! I got 4 pumps in my back yard and 2 heaters, soon to be 6 pumps I guess, I'm really surprised they haven't taken them back to the supplier as their getting covered in dust and dirt, the heaters been rained on etc... Yeah definitely not the most careful around other stuff in the yard
It sounds like you are looking for a 2" looped return in the pool similar to what you have in the spa. Spas are done this way to help equalize the pressure and flow between all the jets since it would be so noticeable otherwise.
The flow to your pool returns on a day to day basis is going to be significantly lower than what it would be in your spa during use. The low gpm and low pressure will hardly be effected by friction loss in the pipes. I don't see an issue with your plumbing set up...of course if you had bigger lines and if it was looped you would see better flow and efficiency, but we may be talking about a few PSI, if that.
The floor cleaners on the other hand, will need higher pressures to operate correctly which will definitely be effected by friction loss in the plumbing. I guess I'm not sure why you went with a partial system as opposed to all or none. With Edison's electric rates and the speed/time you will have to run your pump to achieve a proper cleaning, it may not be worth the increased electrical costs.
The 3" suction and return lines are more for reducing turbulence and keeping flow within a respectable range in feet per second...but again we are really only talking about very high flow rates.
The cupro heat exchanger may buy a little more longevity but it seems that heater deterioration is more related to poor water chemistry than salt levels. There is salt in non SWG pools, sometimes just as high as in salt pools. I would consider keeping the heater and getting credited the difference if the heater you want is going to be difficult to obtain.
The flow to your pool returns on a day to day basis is going to be significantly lower than what it would be in your spa during use. The low gpm and low pressure will hardly be effected by friction loss in the pipes. I don't see an issue with your plumbing set up...of course if you had bigger lines and if it was looped you would see better flow and efficiency, but we may be talking about a few PSI, if that.
The floor cleaners on the other hand, will need higher pressures to operate correctly which will definitely be effected by friction loss in the plumbing. I guess I'm not sure why you went with a partial system as opposed to all or none. With Edison's electric rates and the speed/time you will have to run your pump to achieve a proper cleaning, it may not be worth the increased electrical costs.
The 3" suction and return lines are more for reducing turbulence and keeping flow within a respectable range in feet per second...but again we are really only talking about very high flow rates.
The cupro heat exchanger may buy a little more longevity but it seems that heater deterioration is more related to poor water chemistry than salt levels. There is salt in non SWG pools, sometimes just as high as in salt pools. I would consider keeping the heater and getting credited the difference if the heater you want is going to be difficult to obtain.
Pressure is effected by flow. A sprinkler system could be all the same large size pipe but this would be significantly more expensive and would provide little benefit.
An example, the main line feeds 100 sprinkler heads, 3 cross mains supply 33 heads each, 3 branch lines supply 11 heads each, and the feeders supply 4 heads each. Each new line flows fewer heads than the line before it, thus can be a smaller pipe since it has less flow. The actual size of the discharge orifice is what determines the pressure at a given flow...not so much pipe diameter. Larger pipe sizes allow for more flow with lower friction loss.
Well lots of bad news this week...
1) Was supposed to have an inspection monday and shoot this past tuesday or wed, the city inspector never showed monday, he finally did tuesday mid day and unfortunately he is not the regular inspector for pool builds of course too... so he "freaked the f out" when he saw the bit of seepage from the wall and floor on the shallow end of the pool about 4 feet down in the shallow end of the pool and is requiring a soils engineer to come out before we can pass inspection. Im no expert but it seems to me even with low moisture or a high water table there really is only one solution, treat it as such and move on, so why have an engineer come out to tell me the soils moist, i know that, just treat it as a high water table. The hole has been there 4 weeks now and there is 0 water accumulating in the deep end and the moisture isn't getting worse. My pb was concerend about it from day one, as he was worried it would be an issue in inspection, and wanted to move fast, but the took forever to stub the plumbing with the equipment delays and after 2 weeks its been like it is below since then until now.
It was highlighted in the plan by the pb to the inspector and the first of his concerns on arrival. And the pb wasn't even here for the inspection to explain anything. Its literally seepage of moisture from the soil, i have maybe an inch of muddy/wet dirt in that area, hard to call it a high water table as its not filling the pool with water or anything like that just moisure. See the pictures here and please let me hear your thoughts.
The pool builder deals with moisture like this and high water tables all the time, per them they put in a hydrostatic valve(some times needed, sometimes precautionary as in my case), place gravel in there if needed, pump the water if needed and good to shoot. So why am i paying for a soil engineer to come out when we can just do that? The city wouldn't budge on it per him, they want a soil engineer regardless, and even after the test regardless of the findings per my pb the above is what would happen.
Hopefully some of you can help out with this issue who have encountered it??
2) They put the wrong detail in the permit plan for the slide so we would have failed the inspection any how as a result, they got that fixed which delayed us two days more. Now were looking at a minimum of no soil engineer until next week with with holiday this coming Monday so another week at the soonest to do shot crete.
3) at least plumbing, gas, and electrical passed the inspection...
4) All of the pool company says this moisture isn't a remote issue and they do jobs like this all the time with 0 issues, which i believe, my neighbor just did his pool same builder and the same moisture with 0 problems with inspection. The best thing of all is I have the pb who did my contract today on the phone via text say "this was extremely abnormal and they would never ask me to cover the cost that they(pb) would", I have it in writing in text message, his lead contractor that manages all the subs feels differently but i have it in writing... lots of fun over here.. your thoughts? If they do get a soils engineer should they be responsible for it since they didn't remotely mitigate the soil issues before inspection? Since I have it in writing that he would pay for it? and since its been a concern since day one?
1) Was supposed to have an inspection monday and shoot this past tuesday or wed, the city inspector never showed monday, he finally did tuesday mid day and unfortunately he is not the regular inspector for pool builds of course too... so he "freaked the f out" when he saw the bit of seepage from the wall and floor on the shallow end of the pool about 4 feet down in the shallow end of the pool and is requiring a soils engineer to come out before we can pass inspection. Im no expert but it seems to me even with low moisture or a high water table there really is only one solution, treat it as such and move on, so why have an engineer come out to tell me the soils moist, i know that, just treat it as a high water table. The hole has been there 4 weeks now and there is 0 water accumulating in the deep end and the moisture isn't getting worse. My pb was concerend about it from day one, as he was worried it would be an issue in inspection, and wanted to move fast, but the took forever to stub the plumbing with the equipment delays and after 2 weeks its been like it is below since then until now.
It was highlighted in the plan by the pb to the inspector and the first of his concerns on arrival. And the pb wasn't even here for the inspection to explain anything. Its literally seepage of moisture from the soil, i have maybe an inch of muddy/wet dirt in that area, hard to call it a high water table as its not filling the pool with water or anything like that just moisure. See the pictures here and please let me hear your thoughts.
The pool builder deals with moisture like this and high water tables all the time, per them they put in a hydrostatic valve(some times needed, sometimes precautionary as in my case), place gravel in there if needed, pump the water if needed and good to shoot. So why am i paying for a soil engineer to come out when we can just do that? The city wouldn't budge on it per him, they want a soil engineer regardless, and even after the test regardless of the findings per my pb the above is what would happen.
Hopefully some of you can help out with this issue who have encountered it??
2) They put the wrong detail in the permit plan for the slide so we would have failed the inspection any how as a result, they got that fixed which delayed us two days more. Now were looking at a minimum of no soil engineer until next week with with holiday this coming Monday so another week at the soonest to do shot crete.
3) at least plumbing, gas, and electrical passed the inspection...
4) All of the pool company says this moisture isn't a remote issue and they do jobs like this all the time with 0 issues, which i believe, my neighbor just did his pool same builder and the same moisture with 0 problems with inspection. The best thing of all is I have the pb who did my contract today on the phone via text say "this was extremely abnormal and they would never ask me to cover the cost that they(pb) would", I have it in writing in text message, his lead contractor that manages all the subs feels differently but i have it in writing... lots of fun over here.. your thoughts? If they do get a soils engineer should they be responsible for it since they didn't remotely mitigate the soil issues before inspection? Since I have it in writing that he would pay for it? and since its been a concern since day one?
The soils report is for you and it is for your pool. I don't feel you can make the contractor pay for it unless he knew this was going to be necessary from the begining. The whole permitting process is to protect the homeowner from the contractor not doing things correctly. The permit is not for the contractor.
I am certain that the inspector saw your situation and doesn't want to take on the liability (not that it would fall on him anyway), so the easiest thing to do is punt it to the soils guy. Sorry to hear about your troubles
I am certain that the inspector saw your situation and doesn't want to take on the liability (not that it would fall on him anyway), so the easiest thing to do is punt it to the soils guy. Sorry to hear about your troubles
I would definitely make sure they put 6-8" of crushed stone in the area that is soft... and compact it well. Would have been much easier if they recognized it and did it all before the steel was in. Mine had a lot of standing water in the hole. I made sure they used extra stone and compacted it well. I am not an expert in pool construction, but when they went to do my plaster, they hooked a pump up to the deep end drain to pump out ground water while they plastered and before I filled the pool... this thing ran for 2 days. If there was not rock under there, and it was just pumping out water from mud under the pool, I am guessing it would take with it a lot of dirt also... leaving a void under there. Just my guess...
Totally agreed, Thanks for the advice guys, i definitely think it should be done appropriately, and that was well before this inspection, I don't see a soil report helping that in this case what so ever as the remedy is the same either way its just a way for the city to remove any liability. This is just moisture in one spot and its been present since the dig not worsening at all, present in the soil form 4-6ft range all across my yard, builder was concerned since the dig and did nothing to rectify it before the inspection either, there are a lot of high water tables in the area and as you said they remove the soil and back fill with gravel/sand compact the soil, have a hydro valve and then shoot.
To Update: I went to City Hall Friday to see the building official that over sees the inspector, asked what are we achieving with a soils report and how would this remotely be done and more extensively then a pool in a true water table, my point was solid enough and they agreed 100% that if we treat it as any other pool in a water table scenario and got the plan engineer to sign off on the conditions they felt 100% confident signing it off. It still ergs me that the didn't fix it as they should have before the 1st inspection as its been over 1 month since we dug and thats been a concern and presence since day one, i have pictures to show it too
, also that I had to goto city hall and hound down the building official though the builder was there the day before to get the details on the plan changed for the correct slide detail.Monday the builder does the soil removal, replacement with materials to compact the soil, Tuesday re-inspection for slide and moist soil, and god willing Wednesday we will actually shoot, all in time to take a 5 day vacation to the mountains with the family
Inspection Is Passed!!! Grotto guys are finishing up the steel and steel mesh work today! Shotcrete tomorrow for all of it finally! Ill have pictures of the progress of the grotto work and shotcrete tomorrow
- Status