#12 stranded at Home Depot is about $64 for a 500 ft roll. $58 if you buy 4 or more. About 0.13 / ft. I just bought a ton to do all my wiring. Don't worry about pulling them... a 1" sched 40 conduit is rated for up to 25 #12 conductors. (I can't read the conduit pic you posted.. I am guessing it is 1"). Not saying 25 would be easy to pull, but 14 should be no problem... especially with lube. There should be no more than 360 deg in bends if it was done to code.
Remodel - Not off to a good start.
- Thread starter hoosierrun
- Start date
All I can tell you is, in Arkansas at least, it is not standard procedure to locate minor wiring like that. They only locate services and mains. And as far as the junction box being in line with the conduit that conduit could have gone any direction once in the ground. I understand your frustration i'm just pointing out what their argument is going to be.
Maybe this was standard procedure in Florida back then. If I had an electrician try to do that I would run him off.
On a side note it is good practice to bury conduit because when it is layed in or directly below concrete the concrete will crack over and in line with the conduit. I laid 2 4" sleeves right under my concrete and thanks to the resulting crack they will always be easy to locate!
Maybe this was standard procedure in Florida back then. If I had an electrician try to do that I would run him off.
On a side note it is good practice to bury conduit because when it is layed in or directly below concrete the concrete will crack over and in line with the conduit. I laid 2 4" sleeves right under my concrete and thanks to the resulting crack they will always be easy to locate!
In your case they were actually in the concrete, not below it. I read it to mean the conduit should be under the concrete surface and the deck surface should be at least 2" thick.hoosierrun said:
If you do go to court on this it's all going to hinge on whether or not the conduit was installed correctly originally. I am skeptical that any construction authority anywhere would consider it acceptable to install conduit in any type of solid decking surface like that. I honestly think it would cost you more in the long run and be more of a hassle to go this route. I would avoid the court system at all costs. With appeals, this could last months/years before you get resolution.
I would just chalk this up to an issue with the original install and work it out with the crew that you already have. It's not like they intentionally did this to you. Remember, they didn't have ill will towards you when starting this project - this was something that most crews would not have expected to encounter.
Good luck with it, I hope it works out for you and you get resolution to your satisfaction.
hoosierrun said:
The code section that covers this is:
http://code.necplus.org/sample/document ... cs70-300.5
I also think was likely there in 1980 but it doesn't really matter. It doesn't meet current code and I don't think any legal entity would make a contractor liable for an accident damaging existing infrastructure when their contract with you specifically points out that they are NOT responsible. I understand you frustration and I would want them to fix it as well. But I think any legal action against them would just be more money thrown out and time wasted by you.
Work with them, see what they will do and get the project finished. Hopefully they will work something out with you. You may also want to look at running the wire a different way through the house which doesn't require going under the deck to begin with. That's what I had to do with my run when the metal conduit under the deck rusted out. Good luck and I hope your pool is up soon so you can enjoy it. It is such a pain when they are down.
Interesting thread and I sympathize with you. And agree, they should have seen that coming or double checked. But, you have to get it going, and hopefully they will work out and agreeable deal with you. I know, that's about worthless for me to say, but I wish you the best of luck. Hang in there.
Thanks guys. They are willing to work with me per my discussion with the owner. Tomorrow I am taking the day off and I am meeting with the project supervisor at my property to go over the details. I explained that even with the wires cut, the pool pump and filtration system will still function (just not the spa pump, filter, and lights). We have an overflow from the spa to the pool so the spa will also get some filtration but we won't be able to use it for a while. This should allow them to proceed with the resurface project and they should be back next week to finish that. They may have thought that the pump was non-functional and pulled off the project. Of course, I wish they would have called me. Also, bad weather may have caused them to get behind. Wish me luck on this one. 
I don't think this responsibility lies with the contractor either. Most electrical conduit is laid under ground. Looks like the original builder got lazy and installed when the rebar and forms were placed. I wish you luck but don't think you have a leg to stand on.
CAVJOCK22 said:
That would also indicate that the County inspection was wrong. I believe the inspection required an electrical review and inspection to check the wiring and bonding prior to the deck being poured and there should have been a building inspector to check the rebar/mesh/forms prior to the concrete pour. I know there are permits on file since I recently had to obtain copies and dates of all the permits for Citizens (the State owned) insurance company.
I just have a hard time believing that encasing electrical conduit in 4-5" of concrete was against code for the time (1980).
Here is the latest. I am responsible for unterminating and terminating the wires. They will splice the conduit and with my labor and one of their workers, supply 50% of the cost of the material and help pull it in.
So at 4:30 PM a guy shows up with the wire. We string it out in the yard and bundle it for pulling. I had old the wires unterminated and pulled up (not sure if they needed the old still in there to pull the new in). The guy yanks the old wires out from one end. I have a 25 foot tape which I push through to the break and we pull back a string. We pull the new wires in from the panel box up to the break. Then the guy attaches 2 couplings to the old pipe and measures out a length of flex conduit. From the switch panel we feed a string in the other way using my vacuum cleaner. With the wire pulled out a bit, the guy slips the flex over the wire and inserts the wire bundle into the conduit, and while I feed, he pulls and successfully get up into the panel box. Then he goes back and tries to glue the flex into the couplers. I'm thinking everything went OK until he left. When I inspect it, I see one of the conduits pulling out of the coupling. Dang... he cut it too short.
Any suggestions for wrapping this up? I see some kind of pipe wrap tape online. I wonder if that will work?
I hope they do pool coatings better than they do electrical work. Tomorrow, I've got at least a couple of hours of work re-terminating the new wires. We'll see just how good I labelled the connections.
So at 4:30 PM a guy shows up with the wire. We string it out in the yard and bundle it for pulling. I had old the wires unterminated and pulled up (not sure if they needed the old still in there to pull the new in). The guy yanks the old wires out from one end. I have a 25 foot tape which I push through to the break and we pull back a string. We pull the new wires in from the panel box up to the break. Then the guy attaches 2 couplings to the old pipe and measures out a length of flex conduit. From the switch panel we feed a string in the other way using my vacuum cleaner. With the wire pulled out a bit, the guy slips the flex over the wire and inserts the wire bundle into the conduit, and while I feed, he pulls and successfully get up into the panel box. Then he goes back and tries to glue the flex into the couplers. I'm thinking everything went OK until he left. When I inspect it, I see one of the conduits pulling out of the coupling. Dang... he cut it too short.
Any suggestions for wrapping this up? I see some kind of pipe wrap tape online. I wonder if that will work?
I hope they do pool coatings better than they do electrical work. Tomorrow, I've got at least a couple of hours of work re-terminating the new wires. We'll see just how good I labelled the connections.
Interesting, I'm surprised 2" of concrete is considered "code". Concrete cracks so its not a very permanent cover for the conduit.
Is there an open gap in either? I can't tell from the pic. The right one looks askew, but if there is no gap, I'm not sure you should worry. I would stress them by push, pull, and bending as much as possible to see if they come apart. If neither one did, I wouldn't worry, but that is just me. I don't think he cut too short, but didn't push it in well enough and hold it in while it set. I can't tell you how many bad joints I've seen and repaired for that reason. As for the tape, I have no idea about it, sorry.
The conduit on the right was hanging on just by the PVC cement. I was afraid that as soon as they poured the concrete it would drop and wires would be exposed and under stress. Today I went to Home Depot and found a 1" X 3/4" conduit bell piece. I cut a section out and then cut right down the center to make a clamshell. I purchased some J&B Kwik set epoxy. I coated the inside of the clamshells with liberal amounts of epoxy and held the assembly together with tie wraps. It may look like Crud, but this conduit is not going anywhere now.
I am done with the wiring at the switch panel and I'm taking a break before moving on to the electric panel. I should have this wrapped up today. The pool company is supposed to take care of replacing the wire in the other conduit which is a 12 volt circuit to the spa light.
Later: All electrical is now working except the spa light which the pool company said they will take care of. I feel like I accomplished a lot on a hot humid day and I'm relaxing with a couple of brews.. It took a lot more time than I expected, but hopefully we can move on.
I am done with the wiring at the switch panel and I'm taking a break before moving on to the electric panel. I should have this wrapped up today. The pool company is supposed to take care of replacing the wire in the other conduit which is a 12 volt circuit to the spa light.
Later: All electrical is now working except the spa light which the pool company said they will take care of. I feel like I accomplished a lot on a hot humid day and I'm relaxing with a couple of brews.
. It took a lot more time than I expected, but hopefully we can move on.Finally! We've got a coating. This is supposed to be Sun Stone Pearl "Blue Pearl" by CL Industries. Tomorrow they acid wash it which I assume will bring out the pebbles. Any comments?
I only see one mistake which is too late to correct. In the far back right side of the first picture you can see some built in steps. When I bought the house, those plastic steps were beginning to crack and become dangerous. I ripped them out knowing that years down the road, we would just eliminate them with a re-plaster job. When the pool proposal writer was out at the house and we were going over everything, I pointed out the holes for those old steps and told him to include filling in the holes and resurface it to make it look like there were never any steps there. Plastic just does not hold up in a chlorinated pool. So.... I come home from work tonight and there are new steps there already sealed in with the new coating. These guys just can't seem to get it right. I might mention it the owner, but I'm got going to request they remove them. They are basically pointless because there is no rail or step out to use these anyhow. Argg.
So the remaining work includes putting the pavers in around the skimmer, installing the hand rails for the pool and spa steps, fixing the spa light wiring (that they cut) and wiring in a new spa heater. The dropped another one on me when they told me that I had to get the propane supplier to hook up the gas to the heater. That will probably cost me another few hundred that they never told me about. So much for a turn-key job. It has been very frustrating and I'll be glad when I can finally get a good nights sleep.
I only see one mistake which is too late to correct. In the far back right side of the first picture you can see some built in steps. When I bought the house, those plastic steps were beginning to crack and become dangerous. I ripped them out knowing that years down the road, we would just eliminate them with a re-plaster job. When the pool proposal writer was out at the house and we were going over everything, I pointed out the holes for those old steps and told him to include filling in the holes and resurface it to make it look like there were never any steps there. Plastic just does not hold up in a chlorinated pool. So.... I come home from work tonight and there are new steps there already sealed in with the new coating. These guys just can't seem to get it right. I might mention it the owner, but I'm got going to request they remove them. They are basically pointless because there is no rail or step out to use these anyhow. Argg.
So the remaining work includes putting the pavers in around the skimmer, installing the hand rails for the pool and spa steps, fixing the spa light wiring (that they cut) and wiring in a new spa heater. The dropped another one on me when they told me that I had to get the propane supplier to hook up the gas to the heater. That will probably cost me another few hundred that they never told me about. So much for a turn-key job. It has been very frustrating and I'll be glad when I can finally get a good nights sleep.
Honestly the steps or some other form of "rest" may be required in the deep end. Although they will be a little tricky to use without a railing they will certainly make it easier to climb out of the deep without having to pull yourself out.
Looks really nice to me
Looks really nice to me
hoosierrun said:Finally! We've got a coating. This is supposed to be Sun Stone Pearl "Blue Pearl" by CL Industries. Tomorrow they acid wash it which I assume will bring out the pebbles. Any comments?
I only see one mistake which is too late to correct. In the far back right side of the first picture you can see some built in steps. When I bought the house, those plastic steps were beginning to crack and become dangerous. I ripped them out knowing that years down the road, we would just eliminate them with a re-plaster job. When the pool proposal writer was out at the house and we were going over everything, I pointed out the holes for those old steps and told him to include filling in the holes and resurface it to make it look like there were never any steps there. Plastic just does not hold up in a chlorinated pool. So.... I come home from work tonight and there are new steps there already sealed in with the new coating. These guys just can't seem to get it right. I might mention it the owner, but I'm got going to request they remove them. They are basically pointless because there is no rail or step out to use these anyhow. Argg.
So the remaining work includes putting the pavers in around the skimmer, installing the hand rails for the pool and spa steps, fixing the spa light wiring (that they cut) and wiring in a new spa heater. The dropped another one on me when they told me that I had to get the propane supplier to hook up the gas to the heater. That will probably cost me another few hundred that they never told me about. So much for a turn-key job. It has been very frustrating and I'll be glad when I can finally get a good nights sleep.
Looks good. Is it in your written quote? I have learned over the past years of having work done, if it is important and you want it done - make sure it is written down in the quote. Good luck with it.
I love the color you chose. I bet it will look really nice when full. I tend to like the lighter blue-ish colors myself. You may have said earlier, but I was curious how big it is in volume. Anxious to see it after the acid wash, but it's looking up.
Brushpup said:
I've been using about 17 KGal as an estimate, but it is really just a guess. It is kind of difficult to calculate with the odd size and curves. The deep end over the drain is about 7.5 to 8 ft deep.
I went to the street and read my water meter this morning and will try to get a reading roughly when they start and when they finish filling. That should get me pretty close. Our City water meters around here record in thousand gallon units. Of course, I'm not looking forward to the water cost either, but I estimate the next bill will be from $225 to $250. It's just the cost of being a pool owner.
. The City water supplier does not give a break for filling pools, but there will be a penalty for using 20% over the average customer usage for my neighborhood. If I fax them the pool contract showing the drain/refill, they will provide a 1 time waiver of the penaty fee. They will not step up the sewer part of the bill which is supposed to be capped at $50.
Hey, great Idea on the water meter. That ought to get you far more than plenty close. I'm checking your other thread now, but wished you had just continued it here. I understand though, you wanted to get some answers on the startup. I'd be upset with that situation too. Just unbelievable how some people are. Seeya Monday! BOOH on those guys. 
Keeping your posts under one thread is ALWAYS a good idea...even when the subject changes somewhat. I lets others see the whole "story". Few responders will bounce back and forth trying to assemble the information and you often get overlooked.