5 boys and a grain bin...new AGP build DIY

[firstladykatie]

First, the pics that didn't show up from yesterday:

My brother giving the boys a refresher course on hydraulic fluid.


The bucket buddies after 12yo brother taught 20yo sister to run the bucket and haul loads of sod to the back field.


And now, TODAY'S HAPPY NEWS:

At 7 a.m., the 12yo and I decided we needed more boys today, so I picked up my 14yo from camp for the morning and got a couple of our neighbor boys back. They helped trim the sides of the deep end with shovels, and we used the bucket to haul it out.


By 11 a.m., we had a heat index of 100 and a half dozen extra kids here for the day, so I set the boys free and did the rest with the backhoe.


Next steps:

Tomorrow we start "sculpting" the edges and slopes by hand, if we can skip the rains and survive the heat.

Then I need to make decision about equipment. Still have the ones Cowboy Casey suggested in my Amazon cart.

I have gathered all the specs on all the major brands' 2-speed models, but am waiting to talk to electric guy again about whether to have equipment by the house or move it next to the pool...not sure yet which is going to cost more. If anyone out there wants to take a look at the drawing I posted and weigh in on placement suggestions, I would love some. I want to be sure I have enough "oomph" in the pump to push the water from house and get good circulation on this monster without having to run it on high all the time.

I know I want a BIG and EFFECTIVE filter system. We have a LOT of kid traffic here. I'm intrigued by the cartridge filters. Anyone have a similar gallon size (33k?) and want to weigh in on why they love or hate cartridge vs sand? (I don't think DE is for us).

A few more 100 degree days will have me impatient to get this show on the road. Katie and the boys

 

[cowboycasey]

I love a cartridge filter but they are expensive when they get that big, you would need the pentair clean and clear 520 at $900 I don't know how long you would have before you would need to clean them, if it went all summer that would be awesome...
Amazon.com : Pentair 160332 Clean Garden
http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/CleanandClearPlusOM.pdf

A sand filter would be easier to use, faster to clean, but cost more in water to backwash (about 200 to 500 gallons or so per backwash) if you're on a well that would not really matter... the sand filter is almost the same price but you would need a 6 way valve also so about 980 you would need 600 pounds of sand to install in the filter...
Amazon.com : Pentair Triton II Side Mount Filter TR100 Fiberglass Sand Filter without Valve : Swimming Pool Cartridge Filters : Patio, Lawn Garden
Amazon.com : Pentair 261050 2-Inch HiFlow Valve with Plumbing Replacement Pool/Spa D.E. and Sand Filter : Swimming Pool Filter Valves : Patio, Lawn Garden
http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/TritonIIOM.pdf

your cheapest option is the cart filter and the easiest option is the sand, both are huge filters and will work great

I always thought the pumps were the most expensive part of a "pool" system but the pumps are almost always the cheapest option

 

[kimkats]

I LOVE my sand filter due to the ease of cleaning-----turn off pump, turn handle to backwash, turn on pump, Watch yucky water go bye-bye. Turn off pump, turn handle to rinse, turn on pump and let it do the work.

BUT you do have lots of help so......

LOVE the pics. and the fact the neighbor boys were there helping! What a great way to raise some kids! Help if you want to play!

Kim:cat:

 

[needsajet]

I'm sure you've thought of this, but while you have your mitts on that hoe, you could dig a shallow trench over to the house if there's nothing buried there. It will either be pipe or cable, depending which way you go.

 

[firstladykatie]

Thanks for the information and links!


Cowboy Casey, in the early part of this thread, you linked a 24" Hayward sand filter on Amazon for around $300. Can you tell me more about your thinking in linking the Pentair $900 version now? I do want big and effective, but also don't want to pay for a bunch more than I need at this point. Did the fact that I was using 110 affect your first recommendations?

Added my first water to pool today...spraying on the too-dry fine dust to give the walls a crust. Today's pictures:

Blondie level-testing the deep end and hubby helping remove clay clods


The nearly-finished sculpting of deep half, with water sprayed on full 36' perimeter and deep-end walls to help soil settle further. My chairs are on the imaginary upper deck, and the someday-patio is under the shady trees. The old slide is marking the place where my someday-grandkids can slip into a patch of 4' shallow just to the side of the deep area.


It is soooo hot here...heat index well over 100 rest of this week.

 

[cowboycasey]

I did recommend that one but that was when you were looking at a smaller pool, at 33000 gallons plus a deep end you are really up there in water now... What I do not know is how long or well that little filter will work... I would hate to see is it not working well or if you come back and ask why you have to backwash a lot... I just looked again, that filter is still pretty big but it is half the size of the pentair, the hayward holds 300 pounds sand and the pentair holds 600 pounds...

They will both work but you will backwash the smaller one more, how much more is unknown...

That pool is coming along nicely, you're doing the most important part, the prep work, it always the hardest part....

 

[needsajet]

I'm entirely ignorant of vinyl liners and just curious. Does that get custom ordered for the exact shape after a set of measurements?

Going back to your pump location question, the cost side is pipe cost vs. wire cost by operating cost. Being at the pool will save friction loss which is your ongoing operating cost. If the wire costs a bit more than the pipe, you can deduct the saved piping cost, and it's the difference between the two that matters, along with a potentially larger wire to get out to the pool, depending how far it's coming from. If you can put a less weatherproof disconnect at the house vs. the one at the pool, that can make a difference.

Convenience, maintenance, looks and sound are the other things. If it were mine, I'd put it under the deck away from the house because of operating cost and sound being heard in the house if it's close to the house. If the sound is too much at the pool, just flip it off while using the pool. It's convenient having it near the pool, and under the deck is hidden for looks. That said, I'd think about equipment placement so I won't be banging my head on the underside of the deck too often!

You mentioned ground level solar heating on the far side of the pool away from the house.. If that's likely, then I might put the equipment over there.

Just my two cents. There's others here with way more experience. This is a really fun project to watch!! Great to see the gang all pitching in.

 

[firstladykatie]

Thanks, guys.

Needsajet, I am planning to order a 36' round expandable liner. The seller says it is just a round liner with a 72" wall, which I will lower into the deep end more, so I guess the seams don't end up right around the bottom of the wall. I very much appreciate your thoughts on placement and would love to hear more from others. If we place it in the niche by the house, it would be next to a laundry room, so I hadn't expected that noise would bother anyone inside. I do think it's considerably farther than I first thought, though, maybe 50 feet? So I don't know if pressure loss (or whatever it should be called, I am not good at the plumbing and get foggy every time I try to read the sticky articles in plumbing) should prompt me to move it next to the pool.

Cowboycasey, I double-checked my math after reading your post. I started out predicting 30-32k, but bumped it to 33k including the deep part. When I calculate a 36' round at 3.8' and also at 5' feet and average them, it's coming out 33,500 gallons. Although the deepest part of the pool will hopefully be 5.5', there is a foot-wide "ledge" of 4' around the perimeter and the deep has a slope of a little less than 45 degrees, so I'm wildly estimating to adjust for that. If I bump those numbers up a bit, it's not hard to get the math up to 35k+. You know so much more than me about equipment available (I find the research on this part very hard and don't even begin to understand the valve stuff)...may I ask if there's an in-between option that you know of? I do really want it to be effective, so if I need to just grit my teeth and shell out for the bigger filter, it's good to know that now. I don't mind washing the cartridges. I thought from pool school they sounded most effective. But if sand filter will be easier to operate and maintain and hook up, etc, I need easy. This pool is completely a mom-and-kids responsibility, and as already demonstrated, I am not handy or mechanical at all. Thanks!

 

[kimkats]

Katie! You all are making good progress! Love seeing everyone getting in on the work. That heat will sap you fast for sure!

Equipment placement-I really like it by the pool. The main reason is the ease of working on it as needed. If you put it under something it will make it much harder to work on as Jet stated-bumped heads and bent backs.

If you want easy to use/clean then sand is the way for you to go. SO easy-turn handle and it does the work for you. LOL well a tiny bit more that that but not by much.

I say go big. Your pool is BIG and your swimmer load is going to be huge as well. The bigger the filter the less you will have to work on it. Of course I am not the one writing the check so...........

Kim:cat:

 

[cowboycasey]

Not much bigger now that we know you and how your pool is going to be used and put through I really believe the bigger sand filter is the way to go.. I agree with Kim also, it is your money we are spending here so I understand what your trying to do, save money


hmmm, lets take a look... looky there, there is a filter smack dab in the middle and half the price

It is the next size up from the first one I picked, has 350 pounds of sand and 3.7 sq ft of filter area, only 1 sq ft lower than the TF100 and 600 dollars cheaper

Hayward S270T Pro Series 27-Inch 1-1/2-Inch Vari-Flo Valve
Amazon.com : Hayward S244T ProSeries 24 Garden
https://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/ProSeries-S270T.pdf

How does that sound

 

[firstladykatie]

I think that filter size/price does sound great, Casey, but almost anything I see or hear while sitting inside air conditioning sounds great today! Thank you!! I ordered my liner a couple hours ago and am eager to get a filter and pump nailed down asap, just still feel so confused by all that.

EQUIPMENT:
Can anyone tell me if there are certain helpful threads to help me really grasp basic knowledge I need about plumbing and equipment set-up (something simpler than Hydraulics 101 but more expansive than the pump and filter basics pages? like "AGP plumbing for dummies"?)? When I do the "search and stab" method, I get totally overwhelmed (and follow too many rabbit trails on things more interesting than equipment).

PLACEMENT:
Definitely don't want to hunch under a deck to work on equipment, but I also do NOT want to see the filter from my house (as I always did with our intex pools). If I put it on the side which I can't see from the house, I would be running an extra 30-50 feet of ditch, which seems pointless. So, if I put it poolside, I need some kind of disguising fence or box around it. Crazy, huh? I'm willing to look at a GRAIN BIN in my backyard, but not equipment. No accounting for taste. I hope to find out the cost of running electric to the pool area this weekend so I can decide whether to put it all by the house or the pool. I will go back to reading about pumps, because I am still trying to figure out if a 1.5 2-speed would have too much pressure loss if I don't put the pump by the pool. And since solar and SWG or liquidator/Stenner are future interests, I do want to be sure I'm set up to add them if I get the opportunity.

Bottom line: lots of kids, lots of guests, usually-traveling dad, mom & kids not afraid of hard work, but no "handy" or mechanical folks living here. If it breaks, I get to fix it, so I need to understand the stuff I'm buying and how it all connects and interacts.

No picture today. Just too hot to even handle the camera with sweaty hands. Hope to double and triple-check the level on all our pavers early tomorrow while we have the laser borrowed. Between the weeks of rain and running back and forth over them with the loader, I want to be sure they're all within .5 inch.

 

[needsajet]

No problem putting it by the house.

The pipe can be sized accordingly and the water will move just fine. Main point I wanted to make was that the difference in cost is not just +$ for the cable to get to the equipment. It's +$ for the wire, +$ for a weatherproof disconnect (possibly, I don't know enough about your rules there), minus $ for the extra pipe to go to and from the house, minus $ (small amount, and maybe, again I don't know the game well enough) for the bonding all connected near the pool.

On an ongoing basis, it takes electricity to push water through pipe, and that's more than the electricity lost to get power to the pump. So long runs of wire are cheaper to operate than long runs of pipe, but it's not a huge deal, especially for the 2-speed pump you have in mind. Also on an ongoing basis, it's convenient to have the equipment near the pool, but again, it's refinement, not a huge deal. I believe shorter pipe runs can also be helpful for winterizing. But overall, 50' from the pool is not a big deal, so think convenience and aesthetics and the rest can be worked out. Sound is less of a deal with the 2-speed as well.

I hope I haven't caused you to go down one of those rabbit holes! Just loving the project and giving some info, sometimes too much! Casey's got it for ya

 

[zea3]

PVC plumbing is fairly easy. You can cut it with a hacksaw or a power saw. Joining it with PVC primer and cement is easy as well. In fact, you may want to get a piece to practice with, maybe use it to make a towel rack. When measuring PVC remember to include the inch or two where the pipe slides into the fitting up to the stop. I made the mistake of not allowing for that and cut some pieces too short. You can use a tape measure to see how deep the stop is on each fitting. Have you decided how to you are going to cut the holes for the skimmer and returns in the pool wall? If there is a prevailing wind on your property, as in it always blows from the north, you will want to locate the skimmer so the prevailing winds help push debris toward it. In my example if the wind is from the north, put the skimmer in the south side of the pool. You will want to minimizes pipe joints and elbows as much as you can. Try to pick a location for the equipment that is as straight a run from the pool as possible.

Use valves for the line from the pool to the pump and from the filter to the pool. If you have a heater you will need a valve and a bypass for it as well. It is a good idea to put unions between pieces of equipment, that way if you need to replace something down the line you don't have to cut pipe to remove it. Leave enough space between each piece of equipment that you can get your hands between things so you have room to work if needed.

When you figure out where your electrical will be, sketch out a couple of layouts for your equipment and we can help you work out the details for getting it plumbed.

 

[firstladykatie]

Needsajet, thanks for revisiting the topic of cost comparison. I failed to respond to your first post about that, and I meant to do so. I had been wishing I could calculate all that out, because I do love information and saving my pennies wherever I can. But I don't know how to begin figuring it out. Thanks for your explanations and the encouragement of following my adventure.

Zea3, thanks for the offer of help. In the sketch I attached earlier, I have the prevailing winds from SSE, so the skimmer drawn in at NNW, and I am still working out the mounting of the skimmer. I have access to plasma cutter, welder, and grinder (all with volunteer operators, even better!) and a brother who is figuring out the sealing. Thankfully, PVC is not beyond my skill set.

Anyone know if there are particularly instructional threads about how to set up the plumbing or weighing the pro's and con's of various equipment options? I know all the build threads have their own variables...been trying to read others with extra large round pools. Perhaps I just need some tips on better search terms.

 

[gwegan]

Have you tried calling Inyo Pools and explian what you have and what they recommend? I would call them and Sun Play. Hey its only a half hour on the phone and both those places will talk.

Personal opinion. Cartridge filters get a slightly more sparkly pool than a sand filter and if you get one big enough you only have to clean it twice a year. I like my cart filter. But part of that is I live in California and it drastically cuts my water use.

 

[kimkats]

above ground pool equipment pictures - Google Search

Try this ^^^ It shows all kinds of ways different equipment is set up.

As for hiding your equipment......I hear you..........think printrest........lattice with honeysuckle on it, 3 sided wall that the kids paint with a pretty mural........We can come up with something pretty no matter where you put it.

The skimmer and return--- I bet if you call INYOPools.com they can help you out with gaskets and sealing ideas. Make sure to tell them TFP sent you for extra special help.

I wish I could help with the equipment more Like you said......reading threads to pick out the details sure does lead you down a rabbit trail! Just finding the equipment pictures lead me to some steps I might be getting for my pool! LOL

Kim:cat:

 

[danpik]

The location of the equipment in this case may have a lot to do with how much of the NEC you plan to follow (or have to follow). This part of the code...

680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles and Equipment.

(3) Dwelling Unit(s). At a dwelling unit, one 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle shall be located not less than 10 ft and not more than 20 ft from the water. This receptacle shall be located not more than 6 ft 6 in. above the floor, platform, or grade level serving the pool, outdoor spa or hot tub. Figure 680-7 un680-07 680-22A3 01.cdr

What this says is, you will need by code to have a convenience receptacle near the pool (10' -20' away)

Personally, if this were mine, I would run at least a 30 amp, 240 volt, sub panel to the pool location and wire the pool into it from there. Wiring in conduit is easier to replace in the future than PVC piping for the supply and return to the pump when it is buried.

 

[firstladykatie]

These are all super helpful comments...just took a drink break and couldn't resist answering and delaying going back outside a couple minutes...thanks everyone...sweating it out in the yard again today and have more kids to keep on task than the old woman in the shoe...I'm starting to wish I would get rained out so I could catch up on the research and purchasing...

Yes, planning to have electric near pool no matter where equipment goes, and I think your opinion (danpik) is really smart...thanks for the link, Kim, and for understanding how I want it to look "clean" or festive, not mechanical!...gwegan, that is a great tip and I will call (I can do that from air conditioning!)...and yes, I am still very interested in the cartridge filter because of the superior cleaning factor (I don't mind washing cartridges, especially if it's much less frequent than backwashing), but I am also still in sticker shock at the $1000 price...yikes.

This site is such a great resource...thanks again, everyone.

 

[firstladykatie]

Today's report: heat index of 107 by early afternoon. Sheesh!!!! We just gave up at 1:00 and went inside to count bolts and nuts for assembling the grain bin wall (hopefully next week!). This is the crew on lunch break. Blonde ones are mine (I have six kids), brunettes are my "tornado family" (they have 9 kids) who lived with us five summers ago after the massive Joplin, Missouri, tornado tore apart their home. That year, they were just little twerps splashing in an 18' Intex. They've doubled in size, thus the pool must also. Don't think the picture shows it well, but they counted buckets of bolts into piles of 10 so we can be sure we're ready.

Earlier today, they nearly completed the precise scraping of dirt between leveled pavers, and they moved a sandbox made from railroad ties out of the way to make room for the truck coming to haul off the dirt and deliver sand (possibly tomorrow, hopefully before Monday). We also got the deep end walls just about sculpted and packed down the way I want them. I keep watering the part that is supposed to be my shallow "ledge" around the inside of the deep side wall. It got knocked pretty loose with a few young boys too vigorously shoveling and had to be rebuilt. I'm hoping the water and nature's oven will compact and bake it hard enough to work.

Now we're on hold for a couple days until schedules allow us to do the bin wall. Off to buy wall insulation from the local lady who dropped her price for me. Then hopefully some pump and filter research this weekend.

 

[kimkats]

Just one big, happy family! Love that you took in that family while they rebuilt. Where do they live now? I am guessing close. Did you know them before the tornado?

I love that they are helping. You want to play? Then you pay (work) lol

Kim:cat: