40 DWV pipes

[CARIOCA]

Can a 40 DWV pipe be used in jacuzzi, does it support pressure or is it only used for drainage?

 

[setsailsoon]

CAR,

Welcome aboard and thanks for your question!

DWV pipe is not recommended for pressure. Having said that, there are a lot of installations that include it. I've seen it for some above ground installations but I wouldn't do it on purpose for any pressure pipe and certainly never underground. It's not so much due to the pressure rating. It's more because of the strength and ability of the thinner walls to handle stress from normal soil and equipment movement. The walls are thinner than pressure pipe and the penetration depth of fittings are shallower.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

DWV PVC pipe does not support pressure applications.

Are you asking about using it in a standalone jacuzzi spa or in an inground build? What equipment is connected to the pipe?

 

[sean.a.hyde]

DWV pipe is not recommended for pressure.

I understand that the lines after the pump are pressurized (sometimes a lot), but aren't the lines before the pump at a negative pressure? Is Schedule 40 rated for negative pressure or just positive?

It's more because of the strength and ability of the thinner walls to handle stress from normal soil and equipment movement. The walls are thinner than pressure pipe and the penetration depth of fittings are shallower.

Just to make things more complicated, I recently came across some "Schedule 40" pipe that was "not rated for pressure". I think the Schedule 40 just refers to the wall thickness and doesn't necessarily mean it is pressure rated (but I'm the wrong kind of engineer).

 

[wogster]

I understand that the lines after the pump are pressurized (sometimes a lot), but aren't the lines before the pump at a negative pressure? Is Schedule 40 rated for negative pressure or just positive?



Just to make things more complicated, I recently came across some "Schedule 40" pipe that was "not rated for pressure". I think the Schedule 40 just refers to the wall thickness and doesn't necessarily mean it is pressure rated (but I'm the wrong kind of engineer).

I think it's one of those goofy measurements in imperial, similar to AWG, because nobody want to try and figure out how to really determine how much 14/113" really is, and 0.12389" doesn't help... Could probably be done as a percentage or as a ratio, which would make more sense, but it's probably not even, as pipe diameter goes up....

 

[Bama Rambler]

Can a 40 DWV pipe be used in jacuzzi, does it support pressure or is it only used for drainage?

There are some Schedule 40/DWV pipe and fittings that are pressure rated. Check on the pipe itself and it'll have the pressure rating on it if it's rated for pressure service.

 

[ajw22]

Just to make things more complicated, I recently came across some "Schedule 40" pipe that was "not rated for pressure". I think the Schedule 40 just refers to the wall thickness and doesn't necessarily mean it is pressure rated (but I'm the wrong kind of engineer).

If the pipe has ASTM D 1785 on the pipe, it's suitable for pressure applications. A rating of ASTM D 2665 means non pressure applications and should not be used for pools.

A pipe can be dual rated ASTM D 1785 and ASTM D 2665, but it has to say ASTM D 1785 if it's going to be used for pressure.

The pipe should also be labeled NSF-PW (National Sanitation Foundation - Potable Water) and Schedule 40 PVC.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Actually there's nothing in D2665 that states that it's for non-pressure applications. In fact table 3 in the standard lists the burst pressure that the piping must meet for the standard. It only lists that it's for Drain, Waste, and Vents.

 

[setsailsoon]

I understand that the lines after the pump are pressurized (sometimes a lot), but aren't the lines before the pump at a negative pressure? Is Schedule 40 rated for negative pressure or just positive?



Just to make things more complicated, I recently came across some "Schedule 40" pipe that was "not rated for pressure". I think the Schedule 40 just refers to the wall thickness and doesn't necessarily mean it is pressure rated (but I'm the wrong kind of engineer).

Sean,
You're quite correct about schedule of pipe. By convention pipe has the same OD and different schedules relate to different wall thicknesses. If they are fabricated to the same ASTM standard the pipe will have the same pressure rating. But they often are not. Schedule 40 PVC pressure pipe is manufactured to ASTM D 2665. Schedule 40 DWV is usually manufactured to a different spec ASTM F-1488. This is a composite spec that allows use of a foam core with a PVC outer skin. It's pressure rating is much lower. You can buy DWV pipe in both specifications but the foam core is often used in building and residential because in that service it's not needed to be pressure rated, it's much more important for to be sound deadening so drain noises don't become a nuisance. As to the fittings, I've not seen a dwv fitting that has been fabricated to the same pressure rating as pressure fittings. Most manufacturers and local codes limit pressure for DWV systems to 10' of head. That's not to say it won't work from a pressure perspective. I've certainly seen dwv fittings that were installed and operating with 30+ psi. These installations require more perfectly glued joints and are less resistant to stress. So they can fail quickly or at least fail before pressure fittings and will not meet most plumbing codes for this reason. Bottom line is that this whole matter is more complicated than just the pressure rating. Pressure rating, flexibility, joint durability, strength in various operating scenarios are all factors that determine the right materials to use in the different services.

I'm certainly not a pipe expert, and fortunately I don't need to be. If we had a very unique design with unusual application we could get a pipe and materials expert to specify everything and it would work. Fortunately we don't have that with pool piping. Manufacturers and local code departments have a platoon of technical experts to do the work for us. Best thing to do is look at the manufacturers recommended applications. If they say don't use it in pressure service, don't do it. If they say it's OK, it is. All the information I can find on this indicates we should not use DWV in pressure service.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[JamesW]

If the pipe has ASTM D 1785 on the pipe, it's suitable for pressure applications.

The pipe might be dual rated and also say DWV.

If the pipe is only rated for DWV, it's not suitable for pressure applications regardless of its pressure rating.

DWV fittings have less depth to the sockets and should not be used for pressure applications.

 

[duraleigh]

Can a 40 DWV pipe be used in jacuzzi

You might have that name confused. DWV is drain pipe and not really adequate for a jacuzzi or pool.

However, I have never seen the term "40" used with DWV pipe so I am wondering if you are mixing the name DWV with Shedule 40 pvc which is the correct pipe to use

 

[setsailsoon]

Folks,

Unfortunately big box retailers don't make this easy. For example they also sell duel marked pipe like this (220 psi rated) :


with the following information:


Clear as mud, right?

But when you look at the fittings it starts to get a little more clear:



Here's the summary information (5psi maximum working pressure!!):


The proper fittings are commonly know as pressure fittings. Here's what they look like, notice constant wall thickness and no enlarged end plus deeper penetration for the end:



Here us the corresponding information for the pressure fitting. Not stated here but listed in the specifications is the maximum working pressure of 280 psi. So the system rating is actually limited by the pipe in this case:




The rating for the system is limited by the "weakest link". In this case it's the fittings. The gobbledygook is mind boggling and confusing. Some claim foam core deadens sound better (I think they're right) some claim the opposite. To make it worse the large retailers often display pressure fittings and dwv fittings in the same aisle right next to each other. The only difference apparent to a novice is the price. DWV fittings are often 1/3 the cost of pressure fittings. Since they sell to a large DIY market I'd think they would do a little better. As many of you may know I push the limit on DIY projects I take on but I'm also very careful to seek help from experts when I'm not familiar with the skills required. Investigating and adhering to owner/builder requirements for a building permit is a good way for me to know what I don't know. Even then, I often learn a lot the hard way. For pool piping it's pretty simple. Don't use dwv fittings for pressure applications. For pipe make sure its ASTM D2665 compliant and stamped to an acceptable pressure rating and use schedule 40 pressure fittings.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[ajw22]

For pool piping it's pretty simple. Don't use dwv fittings for pressure applications. For pipe make sure its ASTM D2665 ASTM D 1785 compliant and stamped to an acceptable pressure rating and use schedule 40 pressure fittings.

FIFY Chris.

Standard Specification for Poly(Vinyl Chloride) (PVC) Plastic Pipe, Schedules 40, 80, and 120

AbstractThis specification covers poly(vinyl chloride) (PVC) plastic pipe, schedules 40, 80, and 120 for use with the distribution of pressurized liquids only. This specification also includes classification criteria, nomenclature system, test methods, re

www.astm.org

1.1 This specification covers poly(vinyl chloride) (PVC) pipe made in Schedule 40, 80, and 120 sizes and pressure-rated for water (see Appendix X1). Included are criteria for classifying PVC plastic pipe materials and PVC plastic pipe, a system of nomenclature for PVC plastic pipe, and requirements and test methods for materials, workmanship, dimensions, sustained pressure, burst pressure, flattening, and extrusion quality. Methods of marking are also given.

1.2 The products covered by this specification are intended for use with the distribution of pressurized liquids only, which are chemically compatible with the piping materials.

 

[setsailsoon]

FIFY Chris.

Standard Specification for Poly(Vinyl Chloride) (PVC) Plastic Pipe, Schedules 40, 80, and 120

AbstractThis specification covers poly(vinyl chloride) (PVC) plastic pipe, schedules 40, 80, and 120 for use with the distribution of pressurized liquids only. This specification also includes classification criteria, nomenclature system, test methods, re

www.astm.org

1.1 This specification covers poly(vinyl chloride) (PVC) pipe made in Schedule 40, 80, and 120 sizes and pressure-rated for water (see Appendix X1). Included are criteria for classifying PVC plastic pipe materials and PVC plastic pipe, a system of nomenclature for PVC plastic pipe, and requirements and test methods for materials, workmanship, dimensions, sustained pressure, burst pressure, flattening, and extrusion quality. Methods of marking are also given.

1.2 The products covered by this specification are intended for use with the distribution of pressurized liquids only, which are chemically compatible with the piping materials.

Thanks!

 

[CARIOCA]

CAR,

Welcome aboard and thanks for your question!

DWV pipe is not recommended for pressure. Having said that, there are a lot of installations that include it. I've seen it for some above ground installations but I wouldn't do it on purpose for any pressure pipe and certainly never underground. It's not so much due to the pressure rating. It's more because of the strength and ability of the thinner walls to handle stress from normal soil and equipment movement. The walls are thinner than pressure pipe and the penetration depth of fittings are shallower.

I hope this helps.

Chris

I got scammed by a pool company, I paid him 42 k and after the gunite was shot he disappeared, a few month later I got 2 liens on my property because the pool company did not pay the suppliers, the plumbing company is suing me, I tried to settle but they filed a law suit and now I am trying to check the materials they say they delivered. my pool is 15x34, they said they delivered 940 ft of pipes plus 280 ft of conduit pipes, I find it excessive, what are the rules when measuring a pool for pipes?

 

[CARIOCA]

You might have that name confused. DWV is drain pipe and not really adequate for a jacuzzi or pool.

However, I have never seen the term "40" used with DWV pipe so I am wondering if you are mixing the name DWV with Shedule 40 pvc which is the correct pipe to use

The list says: 1 1/2x20 40 PVC DWV PE PLAS PIPE.

 

[CARIOCA]

My pool is 15X34, how do I measure for plumbing so I have a better idea of how many pipes to order?

 

[ajw22]

My pool is 15X34, how do I measure for plumbing so I have a better idea of how many pipes to order?

Depends on lots of other factors then pool dimensions. How many skimmers and returns? Distance to equipment pad? Skimmers and returns home run or looped?

You need a pool design and property layout with dimensions to estimate.

 

[JamesW]

My pool is 15X34, how do I measure for plumbing so I have a better idea of how many pipes to order?

You said that the pipes were already delivered?

Do you have the pipes or not?

How many pipes were actually delivered?

Do you have a picture of the pipes and the information printed on them?

Your overall post is confusing as to exactly what is going on.

Is the pool built or what?

 

[setsailsoon]

I got scammed by a pool company, I paid him 42 k and after the gunite was shot he disappeared, a few month later I got 2 liens on my property because the pool company did not pay the suppliers, the plumbing company is suing me, I tried to settle but they filed a law suit and now I am trying to check the materials they say they delivered. my pool is 15x34, they said they delivered 940 ft of pipes plus 280 ft of conduit pipes, I find it excessive, what are the rules when measuring a pool for pipes?

CAR,

What do the contract terms say with reference to release of liens? You were right to attempt to settle, this is always the best way out if at all possible. Isn't mediation mandatory as the next step? IMHO you need a lawyer familiar with contract law if you haven't already done so. I've not directly managed any construction contracts in Florida but I was directly involved in settlement of a fairly large construction related dispute. The laws are different state by state. Usually I've been able to force them to provide proof of damages (receipts, shipping and delivery, bills of lading etc).

Did you finish with a different contractor or are you required to clear liens before that can happen?

So sorry you're having to go down this road.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris