2nd Time Pool Owner

[cthenrys]

Hi Everyone. I'm Todd and I am just north of Dallas, TX since late 2020 This is only my second pool so I am no expert. My pool is approx 32k gallons with a Pentair Easytouch controller and an Intelliflo VS Pump. I have a Breeze salt cell that was installed in 2018, but I got a warranty replacement in 2021. I am still struggling with chlorine levels and for whatever reason the salt cell is just not maintaining a good level of sanitization. I have had to add shock almost weekly and even then I routinely struggle with algae - especially on horizontal surfaces. I replaced the filter in early 2024 with a new Jacuzzi DE filter, and I was expecting things to get better but to be honest performance has gotten worse. I regularly have to backwash to restore good flow in the pool

To date, I have relied on internet searches, and I have the Leslie's Accublue system (which I am guessing is not well regarded here) to guide me. I am working now with the salt cell mfr to troubleshoot the salt cell but I am here because I'm just frustrated with the amount of work and $$ I am putting into things and am ready to try something different. Would appreciate any and all help.

Thanks

Todd

 

[Jimrahbe]

Todd,

Welcome to TFP.... The only place to properly learn how to maintain a saltwater pool.

I suspect you have a 40K cell in a 32K pool, in Dallas.. Just way too small..

I also suspect that you run your pump for 8 to 10 hours a day.. Not nearly long enough..

And finally, I suspect that your cell's output is no where near 100%..

All to say... you don't have filter issue, you simple have lack of chlorine issue...

I am just guessing of course, but how am I doing so far???

If you are interested, we would be glad to get you pointed in the right direction..

If you follow the Trouble Free Pool Card process, you should never get algae again..

Until recently I had three saltwater pools in the DFW area.. I have been using the TFP process for well over 12 years and in all that time, I never once got algae, and never once added a single package of Pool Store 'Shock".


Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[cthenrys]

Thanks Jim. I suspect you are right. I have a BRZ540SGS2 salt cell. The manufacturer says it is sufficient, but I bet you are correct. They told me yesterday that the controller could accommodate the larger salt cell, but to be honest I am not above changing it out if needed.

So some starting questions :

1. How long do you recommend running the pump ?
2. At what RPM ? I have a VS Pump so should there be a schedule where it runs a different speeds through the day ?
3. I have a winterizing cap on the way so I can test the cell individually when it arrives
4. Where should I start with the TFP Card process ?

Thanks for the welcome.

Todd

 

[Jimrahbe]

Todd,

I suggest that you start by taking a good read through our Pool School and seeing what we are all about. Pool School

Using our PoolMath app, I came up with the following info... PoolMath

Most 40K cells generate 1.4 lbs. of chlorine gas when run for 24 hours and at 100% output.

This would add 5.2 ppm of chlorine (FC) to your 32K pool... Or, about .22 ppm per hour.

Most pools use 2 to 4 ppm of FC per day. Let's use 3 ppm as our number this time of year.

To generate 3 ppm of FC means you would have to run the cell (and of course the pump) for a minimum of 14 hours.. and that is with the cell's output set to 100%

You really don't want to run the cell at 100% output.

A better option is to run your pump 24/7 at a low rpm.. Basically, turn your pump speed down until the cell reports low flow.. The slowly turn it up until the cell reports good flow. Add 100 or so rpm and call that the slowest speed you ever want to run.. Running the pump and not making chlorine makes no sense.

Unfortunately, none of the above info is going to help you until you get rid of the algae that it sounds like you have..

To confirm that you actually have algae, we have an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test (OCLT).. Overnight Chlorine Loss Test

If your pool is green, you can just skim the initial OCLT, and kill the algae by using our SLAM process.. SLAM Process

All of our tests are based on having an accurate test kit.. Test Kits Compared

Initially this all sounds like it is way too complicated to do... But, it is like anything else.. It looks complicated until you do it one time and then you'll say.. Well that was easy..

Let me put it this way... I can't even spell Khemistry and even I can do it..

Just keep asking questions..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[cthenrys]

No, this is great stuff. I will order a better test kit but will get started with what I have. I do not believe the Breeze salt cell has a flow switch. I believe as long as the pump is running there is current to the salt cell but I will confirm. I will get started on the other items later today / tomorrow.

Thank you

 

[cthenrys]

I ran the OCLT test last night using both the AccuBlue home test machine and I had an older DPD kit and bought new -0001 & -0002 reagants (I have a Big boy test kit on the way and have sent the dear John to Leslies for the AccuBlue subscription). I downloaded the PoolMath app and did the following last night :

7PM - Accublue FAC - 0.5. DPD Test - minimal FAC. Added 166oz of Liquid Chlorine per Pool Math recommendation
9PM - Accublue FAC 5.1. DPD Test - 3. Waited overnight
630AM - Accublue 4.4. DPD Test - Looked close to 3 on the color comparison. Maybe it dropped a little. Was hard to tell to be honest

I have noticed now I have a service light on the salt cell.

My hypothesis is that the salt cell is doing little to nothing. I have changed the pump to run at a lower rpm and to run 24hr. However, I noticed something strange. I believed that the previous VS Pump Speed setting was 1800. I increased it two days ago to try getting more flow across the SWG and that greatly increased flow visible from the house (I have a spa that waterfalls / spills over into the pool). I reduced it down to 1800 rpm and it looks like less flow than I was getting. If I increase rpm it gets better, but it just looks like less than when I started adjusting the rpm earlier this week.

Is there an easy rule of thumb for how much flow / how much turnover you want to set rpm ?

Finally (probably not...) I get a beige debris in my spa that I also see in other areas of my pool that looks like sediment coming off the rocks or coping around my pool. I have a "grotto" that backs up to a rock wall with an overhang, and the same sediment can be found there as well. Normal ? A Problem ?

Thanks. Am looking forward to trying something different than what I have been doing for the last 4 years here...

 

[Jimrahbe]

Todd,

Well, you can kind of see why we have problems giving advice based on non-DPD/FAS tests.. Your results were 5.1 and 3.. Which is correct? If we all use the same tests, it is easier to compare results..

Based on your OCLT results, it does not look like you have algae.. But, the test works better if you start with higher FC numbers, so you might want to re-run the OCLT once you get your "big boy" test kit.. For now let's assume no algae.. I am also assuming there is no visible algae in your pool...

I know nothing about your salt system.. If you reduce your rpms, does it report no or low flow?? It appears you do not have a "Flow Switch" but that the cell has a flow sensor of some type.. If you reduce your flow as low as possible does the cell's control panel show any failure indication, or lights or ???

Looks like your Service light could mean several things..

Water temp too low.. (I doubt this in our area right now, but could be a bad cell..)
Low salt level... More likely.. Do you have a way to test your salt level? Did your big boy test kit include a salt test?
Cell needs to be cleaned.. Very likely.. Cell full of Calcium.. When is the last time you looked??

Pump speed vs. spillover flow... As your filter gets dirty your spa spillover will decrease.. This is a CLUE.. This is pretty normal and a hint that is is time to backwash or clean your filter. It can also be an algae warning... If you just cleaned or backwashed your filter and it slows down again very quickly, then that indicates you have algae, even if you can't see it yet.

If you have a spa, then you most likely have a heater.. if you have a heater, then 1500 to 2000 rpm is about as slow as you will be able to run.. (Your signature does not show a spa or heater, so I assumed that you only had a pool...).

My guess is that you have flagstone coping and 'rocks'. If so, they will just continually shed a little sand into your pool.. Sigh!! I know, because I used to have a rent house pool with flagstone.. Not really a problem, just a pain... In my case, no spa or grotto, my robot cleaner pick it up.. I suspect it will be harder to do in your pool..

Not sure why you have that particular SWCG system... You have an EasyTouch and it is designed to work with a Pentair IntelliChlor system.. In your case an IC60, due to your pool size. It is easy to spend your money, but here is what I would have, if it were my pool..

Pentair IntelliChlor IC60 Complete Salt Chlorinator System

Pentair has come out with a newer system, but at this point, we don't know enough about it to make any recommendations.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Newdude]

Looked close to 3 on the color comparison. Maybe it dropped a little. Was hard to tell to be honest

The block test is vague at best and +/- 1 at 3ppm per Taylor IIRC. So by their own say so, if you had a good guess at the color, you could fail the OCLT from inaccuracy alone. Then add the subjectivity and it gets even worse.

Its really a 'do I have chlorine' test. If its yellow, then yes.

Once the real kit comes we'll be cooking with gas.

 

[cthenrys]

Thanks all. I do have a Pentair MasterTemp Heater - will add that to the sig. I also have 3 additional water features on separate pumps. Will refine the sig to add that too.

I don't know why that salt cell was installed - was before my time. If it's bad I won't be replacing with another one... I did do some troubleshooting with CMP and cleared the service light and now I am seeing the "champagne bubbles" off the plates so maybe it's making chlorine now - who knows... Going to check it again shortly as perhaps theres an issue on one polarity vs another. There is some calcium buildup on the plates not a lot as I knocked it off this past weekend.

CMP really says you do not have to soak in Muratic so I have stopped doing that (I was at first) but sometimes it is pretty tough to get all the scaling or buildup off the plates. Any suggestions there ?

Re the spillover - yeah I have dealt with that a lot and with very frequent backwashing. I believe that was as you say a result of algae in the pool. Last week I went to the store who will not be named and one of the "less experienced" workers there said to shock it and brush it. Something tells me that hasn't solved the problem.

I am traveling next week so not sure if the test kit will be here in time so it might be a few days before I learn much more. Incidentally this is what I have been testing with since last night (in addition to the Accublue).

As for the flagstone sediment, my pool cleaner doesn't do a great job of getting it up (maybe that's another thread...). Sometimes its tough to discern if what I am seeing is sediment or algae...

While on stream of consciousness questions - recommendations for getting it out of the spa ?

Thanks and sorry if I'm being the annoying new guy..

 

[Newdude]

Thanks and sorry if I'm being the annoying new guy..

Excuse you. I take offense to THAT. One newdude to another.

I don't know why that salt cell was installed - was before my time.

They used it until they had problems and chose not to replace it. I looked at 2 houses with pools when we moved and both had abandoned SWGs.

sometimes it is pretty tough to get all the scaling or buildup off the plates. Any suggestions there ?

Hit the left sidebar menu, then TFP wiki, then scroll down to SWG : how it works. There's a how to guide for cleaning there.

Then remember the Wiki and explore in your free time. There is boatloads of relevant stuff there for all.

Sometimes its tough to discern if what I am seeing is sediment or algae...

We'll get there. Together.

While on stream of consciousness questions - recommendations for getting it out of the spa ?

Get a rechargeable handheld vac. Max Blaster is one.

 

[cthenrys]

Awesome. Thanks. I have a handheld vac Jacuzzi model. Not thrilled with it but I need to use it more.

Am going through Pool School and will hit the wiki.

One early observation - my CYA (disclaimer - according to AccuBlue) is 44-46. Since I've been here I have to pretty frequently add Conditioner to recover CYA levels. I see for Salt Water TFP recommends a level of 70. Is it a safe bet that my CYA has historically been too low ? If so, then any CL that has been added by the SWG is being burned off faster than desired. Should I go ahead and try to raise CYA now ? Is the AccuBlue directionally good enough to tell me it's lower than desired ? I figure what else is going on that could be hurting me...

Also, when I went to buy Liquid Chlorine at the L Store yesterday, the guy semi lectured me that "were getting warmer so you may be wasting your money as liquid chlorine gets cooked off by the sun faster." Guessing that brings a chuckle ?

 

[PoolStored]

Is the AccuBlue directionally good enough to tell me it's lower than desired ?

No, wait for your test kit.

 

[Newdude]

Should I go ahead

You should *nothing* without reliable data.

Bad data = bad advice. There are no two ways about it.

Before we do anything with the CYA, we need to pass the overnight test because each +10 CYA raises the slam target +4 FC. You want to slam at the lower FC if you need to.

Guessing that brings a chuckle ?

Yes. THANKS. All chlorine is the same once it's mixed in the pool.

 

[cthenrys]

Roger that... Thank you

 

[cthenrys]

OK, so reading Pool School and came across this....

Yeah - that's not at all how I've been doing it. The "L" Store says mix it in a bucket and then pour it in the skimmer. But it never dissolves... So am I right in saying I likely never get the full benefit of what I bought ? Or worse, it clogs the filter ????

 

[Newdude]

But it never dissolves

Yes it does. The filter traps it for a week or so but it dissolves and makes it to the pool eventually.

Here's the big pool version

How to add large batches of CYA

Hey Folks !!! With a large pool, I need 4lbs of CYA to only raise it 15, and I don't think I have that many socks without holes in them. So I use a Tshirt. Plus, I like that it's doubled up for redundancy. But it can also be scaled down with socks. So I measure out my dose and...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[cthenrys]

So a couple of updates...

If I keep the SWG on the same polarity, I believe it is successfully making chlorine. I have tested using the DPD reagents and the chlorine level has held throughout the day (we have had two strong rain showers today as well). Obviously we won't know for sure until the real test kit gets here, but so far so good. I called CMP and they said if it is working on one polarity and not the other, then it's the PCB in the controller. They don't sell them anymore, but they guy said you can find on ebay or elsewhere. I found one and for $99 (with the option to return) I figure it's a possibility to buy some time, if I confirm that the salt cell is making chlorine...

In addition, my Polaris 280, which I took to the L store for evaluation. I actually think the guy there who checks the cleaners is pretty smart, tbh. His assessment was that it really needs a full rebuild and he said I might be better off replacing it with a new cleaner. Said tune up kit would be $499 (as it's a black one..). To be honest I don't know if I want another Polaris. I have a friend with a robot cleaner and I may borrow it and look to buy one of them.

Thoughts ?

 

[Newdude]

found one and for $99 (with the option to return) I figure it's a possibility to buy some time, if I confirm that the salt cell is making chlorine...

Sounds like you have nothing to lose by trying if it comes to that.

Said tune up kit would be $499

If they replace all the moving and wearable parts, you're basically brand new with a short warranty. On one hand, $500 is way better than $1000. On the other hand, there is throwing good money at bad. Nobody is wrong IMO.

 

[cthenrys]

Am searching the forum now for info on robotic cleaners. it seems a better spend in the long run than replacing the Polaris. Do any of you have a recommendation ? L Store has Polaris days so they have a Cordless Polaris Freedom for $1109 and a corded VRXiQ for $1284 with the price ending on Sunday.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Try this...

New EVO 614i Robot Pool Cleaner Review

About a month ago I needed a new robot pool cleaner and I contacted Margaret at Marina Pool and Spa. My initial goal was to buy another S200 "style" robot as I have been happy with them so far. Margaret suggested that I might want to look at a new line of robot cleaners that Marina is now...

www.google.com

This is what I would recommend...

Jim R.