1st time pool owner trying to understand more - Advice wanted!

[wyzski]

Hello TFP,

We just bought a pool and it will be my first time ever trying to take care of one. I found this forum a little late as I may have already been 'pool stored' but the more I learn now will make it easier for next year. My pool store sold me on EZ Pool for "once a week maintenance", a Nature2 to "cut the amount of EZ pool used in half" - AKA saving $220 worth of EZ pool (so about $100 savings after the price of the Nature2) along with some 3 inch chlorine tablets and quick shock (which I plan to use today to open the pool). I am learning a lot about the BBB method that I wish I knew sooner and have a Taylor K2006 test kit arriving today. I know the forum, in general, is not a fan of the Nature2, but for my first year I may end up using it along side EZ pool as I do not have as much time this year to dedicate to pool maintenance and want to try to learn more about BBB and pool chemistry before I jump in. The reason I decided to post on the forum now is I am just looking for general thoughts/advice/warnings/words from the wise on the items my pool store sold me. Does anyone else use these chemicals or should I be hunting for a different brand? Did I get 'pool stored'?

Current Chemicals:
EZ Pool Concentrated Pool Blend - $220 - 20LBS
1.6% Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate (.4% metallic Copper Equivalent)
98.4% OTHER

ProTeam 3 Inch High Tech Tabs (chlorine Tabs) - $77.25 - 16 LBS
91.5% Trichloro-s-triazinetrione
5% Disodium Biborate Pentahydrate
3.5% OTHER

ProTeam Quick Shock - $19.50 - 3 LBS
99% Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione, dihydrate
1% Other

Nature2 Cartridge
Listing this under chemicals to paint a full picture

The instructions I was given - predilute the shock in a 5 gallon bucket with warm water - add water first then shock - one bag per bucket (the shock is in three 1LB bags) and then add to pool. The next day add 6 scoops of EZ Pool and 3 chlorine tabs. Was told to keep pump running 24/7 for the first 3-4 days. After this startup process I was told 2 scoops of EZ pool per week and 3 tablets per week as a baseline. The pool folks are saying this is the preferred method for over 3k of their customers, and to be fair I do know other people who have had good experiences with this pool store and also use the products I listed above, but I am not someone who just blindly listens to advice without doing some of my own research. One other item of conflict I have is that I was told putting the chlorine tablets directly into the skimmer was just fine, but nearly all digging online shows this could have adverse effects on the pump and filter, so I bought a floater to play is safe.

I am also looking for advice on how often to run the pump. From my calculations the pump I have should be able to do a full circulation of water every 4.5 hours. I am learning as temps rise, pumps need to be on more vs lower temps, less pump, but at a minimum you should at least circulate your water 1 full cycle per day. I just bought an outdoor smart plug to assist in this process and am looking at ways to write some IFTTT logic using weather as a guide to help automate pump activity - does anyone have experience doing this with success? Any other pump related advice is also welcome!!

I added pool details in my signature but if there are any other details needed to provide advise or suggestions please let me know and I will post the details.

*Admin* - If I posted in the wrong section of the forum please forgive me and let me know where to move my post.

Thanks!!

 

[duraleigh]

Welcome to the forum
Sorry to be blunt but virtually everything you have goes against what we teach. Why start off with all the wrong stuff when you have 24/7 tech support right here on this forum and you can learn to manage your pool water in the simplest, most effective way.....TFP.

Decide what you want to do but TFP members will only criticize the items you have and will not be helpful in suggesting an effective way to use them. Please don't shoot yourself in the foot.....return everything and start of correctly by posting a complete set of numbers from that good test kit you already own. Stay out of the pool store!

 

[tim5055]

Yes, you were pool stored.

If you have someone you know who has a pool that you really don't like, give them the EZ Pool Concentrated Pool Blend today. While copper is an algecide, as it builds up it can stain pool surfaces and turns blonde hair green. Don't use it wouldbe my advice.

As to the tabs and shock, they are both products that will raise your stabilizer (CYA) level. Until you get your test kit and we can see where your CYA level is, I can't say if you will have any problems moving forward using either of them. They have sold you a "system" of minimal sanitizer and kill stuff one a week with a "shock". We find it better to just maintain the correct chlorine level all the time and never need to "shock".

As to the Nature 2, TFP does not and will not endorse or promote the use of “mineral” based alternative sanitizers because by all peer reviewed literature they are not a sanitizer. While they do kill some of the organisms we want eliminated from pool water they do it much too slowly to protect swimmers from person to person transmission of these microorganisms. Here is an excerpt from the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority (body having jurisdiction over swimming and spa pool sanitizers in Australia). I have added my emphasis to three parts:

In its document, Guidelines for Safe Recreational Waters Vol 2 – Swimming pools, spas and similar recreational-water environments, chapter 5 – Managing Water and Air Quality (WHO website), the World Health Organization states the following.

“The demand for fast biocidal action – to ensure that an infection of swimmers by transmission of bacteria and viruses via pool water does not occur even when the pool is used in rapid succession by large numbers of bathers – rules out the use of silver or other heavy metals for pool water disinfection, because a long exposure period (several hours) is required for these substances to show a biocidal effect. A quick, sensitive, analytical field procedure for measuring low concentrations of silver is not available.”

The German Federal Environmental Agency stated a very similar conclusion in its press release dated 8 February 2001 (external website). It states (in the final dot point):

“Silver-copper compounds, mentioned by the press as alternatives to chlorination, may not be seriously considered for use in public swimming pools. They take effect too slowly. According to DIN 19643, the disinfectant must reduce the concentration of Pseudomonas aeruginosa by four decimal powers within 30 seconds. Silver-copper compounds take an hour or more for this. What is more, they do not have the necessary disinfectant capacity.”

Published papers in the scientific literature indicate that silver and copper ions require lengthy periods of time (usually in the range of several hours) to exhibit significant anti-bacterial activity. In addition to being slow, the antibacterial activity does not kill all cells but may have only a bacteriostatic effect on a portion of the population.

Virucidal activity also appears to be variable or not present for some viral types. Copper and silver ions in the presence of reduced levels of free chlorine (below 1 ppm) do not ensure the total elimination of viral pathogens from water.

If you research the “papers” supporting mineral use you will find that they are written/published by organizations that have a financial interest in selling the systems or are "alternative health" literature.

So, copper, silver and other "minerals" are killing the algae, but either don't kill or kill too slowly the really bad stuff. I personally say that algae is like the canary in teh coal mine. If you get algae, stay out of the water because you have insufficient sanitation. Put something in the water that just kills algae and you have no clue that really bad stuff may be in there. Clear water does not mean safe water.

There are three EPA-approved disinfection alternatives:

Chlorine

Bromine

Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB.


"Copper", "Silver" and "minerals" are not sanitizers. We find chlorine the easiest to use. While talking about chlorine understand, chlorine is chlorine is chlorine. The chlorine in bleach is the same chlorine in the 3" tabs and is the same chlorine that is produced by a salt water chlorine generator (SWCG). They are just different methods of adding the chlorine to you pool water. In it's natural state, chlorine is a gas. Many large commercial pools actually use gas injection systems to chlorinate their pools. Now, to change chlorine into something we can use at home it needs to be bound to something to turn it into a solid. The "somethings" that are commonly used are stabilizer (also known as CYA), calcium, lithium, or --- get this water. All of these add a little salt to your water, but they add something else. Cal-Hypo add calcium, Tri-Chlor and Di-Chlor (tabs and most granules) add stabilizer, Lithium hypochlorite adds lithium and liquid chlorine adds - water.

All of these things can be bad for your pool (except the water) in large quantities. The stabilizer helps shield the chlorine from UV degradation, but at higher levels it also impairs the ability of chlorine to do it's work. The higher the stabilizer level you have the higher the amount of chlorine you need. Too much calcium and you start to get scaling on the walls and floors of your pool.


So, TFP is not "against" anything - it's "for" knowledge. The knowledge is condensed in the Pool School.

How much Pool School have you read? Start with these:

ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry

There are several items things every pool owner should know about swimming pool water. We share details on the basics of Pool Water Chemistry.

www.troublefreepool.com

Recommended Pool Chemicals

Which should I buy? TFP's recommended pool chemicals are cheap, easy, and won't unbalance your pool water.

www.troublefreepool.com

How to Chlorinate Your Pool

Before chlorinating your pool, you should know these simple tips. Learn the best way to add chlorine to your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

So, welcome to TFP!!

 

[wyzski]

Welcome to the forum
Sorry to be blunt but virtually everything you have goes against what we teach. Why start off with all the wrong stuff when you have 24/7 tech support right here on this forum and you can learn to manage your pool water in the simplest, most effective way.....TFP.

Decide what you want to do but TFP members will only criticize the items you have and will not be helpful in suggesting an effective way to use them. Please don't shoot yourself in the foot.....return everything and start of correctly by posting a complete set of numbers from that good test kit you already own. Stay out of the pool store!

I figured as much from what I have read so far. I don't mind blunt advice, often times its the best. ?

 

[wyzski]

Yes, you were pool stored.

If you have someone you know who has a pool that you really don't like, give them the EZ Pool Concentrated Pool Blend today. While copper is an algecide, as it builds up it can stain pool surfaces and turns blonde hair green. Don't use it woul dbe my advice.

As to the tabs and shock, they are both products that will raise your stabilizer (CYA) level. Until you get your test kit and we can see where your CYA level is, I can't say if you will have any problems moving forward using either of them. They have sold you a "system" of minimal sanitizer and kill stuff one a week with a "shock". We find it better to just maintain the correct chlorine level all the time and never need to "shock".

As to the Nature 2, TFP does not and will not endorse or promote the use of “mineral” based alternative sanitizers because by all peer reviewed literature they are not a sanitizer. While they do kill some of the organisms we want eliminated from pool water they do it much too slowly to protect swimmers from person to person transmission of these microorganisms. Here is an excerpt from the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority (body having jurisdiction over swimming and spa pool sanitizers in Australia). I have added my emphasis to three parts:

If you research the “papers” supporting mineral use you will find that they are written/published by organizations that have a financial interest in selling the systems or are "alternative health" literature.

So, copper, silver and other "minerals" are killing the algae, but either don't kill or kill too slowly the really bad stuff. I personally say that algae is like the canary in teh coal mine. If you get algae, stay out of the water because you have insufficient sanitation. Put something in the water that just kills algae and you have no clue that really bad stuff may be in there. Clear water does not mean safe water.

So, TFP is not "against" anything - it's "for" knowledge. The knowledge is condensed in the Pool School.

How much Pool School have you read? Start with these:

ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry

There are several items things every pool owner should know about swimming pool water. We share details on the basics of Pool Water Chemistry.

www.troublefreepool.com

Recommended Pool Chemicals

Which should I buy? TFP's recommended pool chemicals are cheap, easy, and won't unbalance your pool water.

www.troublefreepool.com

How to Chlorinate Your Pool

Before chlorinating your pool, you should know these simple tips. Learn the best way to add chlorine to your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

So, welcome to TFP!!

Really appreciate the quick write up. I have read those links a few times and will probably read them a few more times today. Once my kit gets in today I will start testing my water and post results here seeking more guidance. Technically all the products I listed are unopened/unused and have the potential to be returned. One thing I do notice is that with BBB it is important to test frequently and maintain. Pending the water results would it be possible to use the chlorine tablets in certain instances (say when out of town) to maintain levels of FC in conjunction with BBB being the primary method of chemicals?

Thanks!

 

[tim5055]

Really appreciate the quick write up. I have read those links a few times and will probably read them a few more times today. Once my kit gets in today I will start testing my water and post results here seeking more guidance. Technically all the products I listed are unopened/unused and have the potential to be returned. One thing I do notice is that with BBB it is important to test frequently and maintain. Pending the water results would it be possible to use the chlorine tablets in certain instances (say when out of town) to maintain levels of FC in conjunction with BBB being the primary method of chemical methods?

Thanks!

As to the 3" tabs, yes.

We really are not against their use. We are against their uncontrolled use.

The pool store tells you that they are the easiest way to get chlorine in your pool. They are. But, they don't tell you (or really don't understand) that the 3" tabs also add CYA (also known as stabilizer or conditioner) to your pool.

All pools need stabilizer, but not too much.

Others here can give you the scientific details if you want, but lets just say CYA locks the ability of chlorine to sanitize. The more CYA you have the more chlorine you need to keep in the pool to keep algae at bay.

For vacations, I use tabs. All of the rest of the time I use liquid.

I would return it all (they will try to refuse) and if you want to use tabs for vacation buy it on line. You paid almost $5 a pound for the tabs and i see them on Amazon (I love Prime) for about $2.35 a pound (half the price, delivered). What the pool industry does not understand is that the internet is changing the industry around them. My favorite story is about my pool light. When I bought the house with the pool along with high CYA my pool light was not working. I could get a new bulb from Amazon for $19, but heck I'm part of that immediate gratification society as much as the next guy. I went down to the local pool store and there was the same bulb, $39. I talked with the manager. I didn't want them to match the price, they have to keep the lights on - just be a little more reasonable. The manager gave me two choices, take it or leave it.

So, why do pool stores do these things and push these products? Several reasons.

- Money would be the first. Unless a pool store is in Florida, Arizona or other year round areas they must make their profit in a short swim season. So, they need to sell you as much as they can as quickly as they can. Additionally, chemical sales is their bread and butter. Profit on a bucket of tabs is much higher than on a gallon of liquid.

- Secondly, we are an immediate gratification society. We want a magic potion that will fix our problem right now. This is where the industry has tried to ad items like clarifiers, floculants and the like which in a perfect world help get the bad stuff out of the water quickly.

- Third in my book is training. Most pool store employees learn on the job or through seminars taught by chemical salesmen. So, bad information is handed down from employee to trainee and the chemical salesmen teach them to push high profit items. This is especially true in large chain stores where employees are paid commission and managers jobs are based on how much product flows out the door.

Pool store methods can work for a long time and many are oblivious to what is happening in their pool. If you are in an area where your pool is drained down a lot each winter and winter snow/rains fill an overflow the pool each spring you are starting with a blank canvas, chemically speaking.

Are there good pool stores out there, yes! But, most of them are in the "sun" states where a family can own a small store and operate it 12 months a year, give good service and make a profit.

In the rest of the country you mainly have a high school/college kid who has about an hour training testing your water and telling you what to buy to add to your water. I guess that's like going into a carpet store and asking if you need to buy new carpet.

 

[Chuckiechan]

I use the pool store to check my sale mostly, so they run the chems too. Its all I can do to keep my mouth shut when Miss Muffet piles $300 worth of stuff on the counter for the customer and they are happy.

Get the recommended test kit, and let the experts help you. It’s not difficult at all and you will be more in control. There are basic pool opening and closing things you do, and the rest is mostly maintenance.

 

[wyzski]

As to the 3" tabs, yes.

We really are not against their use. We are against their uncontrolled use.

The pool store tells you that they are the easiest way to get chlorine in your pool. They are. But, they don't tell you (or really don't understand) that the 3" tabs also add CYA (also known as stabilizer or conditioner) to your pool.

All pools need stabilizer, but not too much.

Others here can give you the scientific details if you want, but lets just say CYA locks the ability of chlorine to sanitize. The more CYA you have the more chlorine you need to keep in the pool to keep algae at bay.

For vacations, I use tabs. All of the rest of the time I use liquid.

I would return it all (they will try to refuse) and if you want to use tabs for vacation buy it on line. You paid almost $5 a pound for the tabs and i see them on Amazon (I love Prime) for about $2.35 a pound (half the price, delivered). What the pool industry does not understand is that the internet is changing the industry around them. My favorite story is about my pool light. When I bought the house with the pool along with high CYA my pool light was not working. I could get a new bulb from Amazon for $19, but heck I'm part of that immediate gratification society as much as the next guy. I went down to the local pool store and there was the same bulb, $39. I talked with the manager. I didn't want them to match the price, they have to keep the lights on - just be a little more reasonable. The manager gave me two choices, take it or leave it.

So, why do pool stores do these things and push these products? Several reasons.

- Money would be the first. Unless a pool store is in Florida, Arizona or other year round areas they must make their profit in a short swim season. So, they need to sell you as much as they can as quickly as they can. Additionally, chemical sales is their bread and butter. Profit on a bucket of tabs is much higher than on a gallon of liquid.

- Secondly, we are an immediate gratification society. We want a magic potion that will fix our problem right now. This is where the industry has tried to ad items like clarifiers, floculants and the like which in a perfect world help get the bad stuff out of the water quickly.

- Third in my book is training. Most pool store employees learn on the job or through seminars taught by chemical salesmen. So, bad information is handed down from employee to trainee and the chemical salesmen teach them to push high profit items. This is especially true in large chain stores where employees are paid commission and managers jobs are based on how much product flows out the door.

Pool store methods can work for a long time and many are oblivious to what is happening in their pool. If you are in an area where your pool is drained down a lot each winter and winter snow/rains fill an overflow the pool each spring you are starting with a blank canvas, chemically speaking.

Are there good pool stores out there, yes! But, most of them are in the "sun" states where a family can own a small store and operate it 12 months a year, give good service and make a profit.

In the rest of the country you mainly have a high school/college kid who has about an hour training testing your water and telling you what to buy to add to your water. I guess that's like going into a carpet store and asking if you need to buy new carpet.

@duraleigh and @tim5055 and @Chuckiechan

Back with test results. The pool finished filling from my hose (city water) a few days ago. nothing has been done to it yet. ALso - I have not been running the pump - Please let me know if I should be running it even before opening...

FC/CC = 0 (i think) - when I put in the powder there was no color change
PH = 7.6
Alkalinity = 400 (took 40 drops using the 25ML mark for colors to change - this number is much higher than the pool store reported which was 190...do I need to redo this test?)
Hardness = 375-400 (depends how deep blue you want the color to be) FWIW the pool store had me at 425
CYA - the water never got cloudy - I could fill the entire tube up and still see the back dot on the bottom of my tester. Did i do something wrong or is that expected with fresh water from the hose?

Please let me know if I missed anything

Thanks in advance!

 

[scout123]

Your CYA reading is normal since you've not put any in yet. This is how I started my fresh filled pool:
I tested. Then I added CYA (bought at Walmart and put the amount needed in a sock and put it in front of my return) and I added liquid bleach (also from walmart. The no name stuff without added scents and not the splashless) That's all I had to do with my freshly filled pool. I got the amounts I needed from the pool math app. I can't speak to the alkalinity as mine always tests within the range needed without my doing anything. I'm not an expert by any means. I've been coming to this site to gain knowledge since last summer. It does seem daunting at first. I was also a bit overwhelmed with my test kit when I got it. Now, I can test my pool in 5 minutes. Good luck...Oh, and yes, I'd get my pump running and get some chlorine in the pool.

 

[wyzski]

Your CYA reading is normal since you've not put any in yet. This is how I started my fresh filled pool:
I tested. Then I added CYA (bought at Walmart and put the amount needed in a sock and put it in front of my return) and I added liquid bleach (also from walmart. The no name stuff without added scents and not the splashless) That's all I had to do with my freshly filled pool. I got the amounts I needed from the pool math app. I can't speak to the alkalinity as mine always tests within the range needed without my doing anything. I'm not an expert by any means. I've been coming to this site to gain knowledge since last summer. It does seem daunting at first. I was also a bit overwhelmed with my test kit when I got it. Now, I can test my pool in 5 minutes. Good luck...Oh, and yes, I'd get my pump running and get some chlorine in the pool.

Thanks! When you say 'the no name stuff' do you mean walmart generic brand or am I not reading in between the lines well enough? Trying not to assume anything on the topic since I am so new...

 

[mknauss]

At Walmart the best source of liquid chlorine is in the pool care section. They have Chlorinating Liquid that is 10% sodium hypochlorite.

 

[tim5055]

I suspect your TA & CH may be testing error due to insufficient swirling while testing.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, but I also have the SpeedStir and Sample Sizer. They speed testing and accuracy by "swirling" for you at a constant rate.

In any case, neither one of them is anything to worry about today. Chlorine and CYA in that order are your worries.

You may want to pick up some muratic acid. Lowes was my go to place until my pool store actually dropped the price below Lowes for the full strength stuff. If your TA is really that high, the pH is going to rise quickly. The muratic acid will bring down both the pH and TA.

 

[Oly]

 

[TomGallopavo]

You made a good decision going with tfp. You made a comment a while back about testing all the time. You will get to know your pool. I don’t test all the time. I use the chlorine/ ph test a few times a week, not the full tests. You have to pay attention but it is not laborious. Just follow the advice until you “get it”.

 

[wyzski]

At Walmart the best source of liquid chlorine is in the pool care section. They have Chlorinating Liquid that is 10% sodium hypochlorite.

I suspect your TA & CH may be testing error due to insufficient swirling while testing.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, but I also have the SpeedStir and Sample Sizer. They speed testing and accuracy by "swirling" for you at a constant rate.

In any case, neither one of them is anything to worry about today. Chlorine and CYA in that order are your worries.

You may want to pick up some muratic acid. Lowes was my go to place until my pool store actually dropped the price below Lowes for the full strength stuff. If your TA is really that high, the pH is going to rise quickly. The muratic acid will bring down both the pH and TA.

Thanks for the advice, got some chlorine and stabilizer in the pool and will resume testing later tomorrow morning. I would not be shocked if my CH was truly that high. Our house requires a water softener (which the hose is not plumbed in to). When I tested the water before installing the softener inside I also got a reading around 400-425 CH PPM. My area is known for very hard water. Thanks for all the help so far!