Abandoned Pool - Suggestions Please

[scdaren]

Dirk.......help me think this through...........water is water and weighs the same thing if it is held in a plastic bag or bowl.......I am going to do some poking around and asking to see if there is a something with the a pool that would make it HAVE to have a liner instead of plaster or such....We will meet back here and compare notes.

Kim (my pm box is about to get a work out!!)

I'm far from any kind of expert on this, but I would think that a pool would need a certain type of really solid, rigid structure to support the plaster and keep it from cracking or falling apart, i.e. gunite full of rebar.

 

[Dirk]

It's not the weight of the water at issue, per se. It's how it's going to be supported, and what that support system was designed to endure. Dirt would support a 40000 gal bag of water, but you couldn't replace the bag with plaster, because the dirt could shift and the plaster would crack.

My last post was all conjecture, based on how I've watched plaster pools being built here at TFP. Six to eight inches of solid, one-piece concrete, embedded with a massive amount of rebar. I have assumed the purpose of that construction method was to ensure that it would absolutely not crack (and even those do, sometimes), and because it was all one material, would not expand and contract differently from one area to another. We know that the shell doesn't need to be water tight. The liner/plaster does that. With a liner, which is somewhat flexible, it would remain watertight if the shell was not absolutely rock solid. Like if it flexed, or if two different materials (like slab and block) expanded or contracted in slightly different ways. But those kinds of movements could cause plaster to crack, which would then leak. And we don't know how thick the floor is, or whether it has rebar in it, or how much even if it does, and how the connection was engineered between slab and block, etc... I was just posing the questions: does that matter? Or does it need to be determined ahead of time if plaster can withstand what that shell might subject it to?

What I do know, is that concrete and stone can move. And can move differently than surrounding materials of a different composition. That's why some pools are surrounded by expansion joints. Do pools constructed of slab and block get plastered? Does that work? And work well? That's beyond my knowledge.

Now if that pool had been a plaster pool, one might somewhat safely assume that it could support a fresh coat of plaster. But according to others here, it never was a plaster pool. Is the OP willing to gamble that this non-plaster pool can be successfully converted to a plaster pool?
Has the OP received estimates from any PB willing to use plaster on that shell?

Again, just posin' the questions. I have no idea what the answers are...

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I'm far from any kind of expert on this, but I would think that a pool would need a certain type of really solid, rigid structure to support the plaster and keep it from cracking or falling apart, i.e. gunite full of rebar.

Ha, ya beat me while I was typing! Why did it take me six paragraphs to say that!!

 

[scdaren]

Ha, ya beat me while I was typing! Why did it take me six paragraphs to say that!!

Your post sounded much more believable.

Lol... my wife says it took her a few years to learn to tell when I actually knew what I was talking about, and when I was just hypothesizing.

 

[Arizonarob]

I can solve everyone’s problem. You’ll be swimming in no time.

 

[kimkats]

This is FUN! I am learning so much. I hope it will also be helpful for the TW as well.

FLEXSEAL!! I wonder if they would care to sponsor this pool??????????? Take about an awesome ad!!! Off to do some calling around LOL

Kim

 

[scdaren]

I can solve everyone’s problem. You’ll be swimming in no time.

Judging from the commercial, I think it's worth a shot.

 

[Arizonarob]

In all seriousness. If it were my property, I’d do a google search of the address, then head into images, and see what you can find. If that place was once in fact an RV park of some sort, you might get lucky and find some pictures of the pool the way it was.
Almost like doing a “family tree” but on the property itself. Hit up town halls building department also, to see if there are any plans on that property. You may be able to find out who the original builder was.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Liner pool floors are chiefly to decoupled the liner from the earth.

.

They are not built to shoulder the same load as a shotcrete cell.

Water weight isn’t the issue, it’s how the load is carried. Water is a a dynamic load, so wall to floor
Interface has to be designed to to carry it..

A crane can lift a concrete structure filled with water, a liner pool on a crane will fall apart.

In short putting a liner in a concrete pool is doable & often successful. A cement surface on a liner pool skeleton is a pile of problems.

- A good example is cement board for tile setting indoors. The CB offers no structural integrity, it separates the mortar and tile from the homes framing members. The cement backer board is the liner pool floor.

 

[tylerlisal]

My MIL's pool was built in the 1980s using cinder blocks. She got tired of replacing liners a couple of years ago and had several companies look at her pool to see if there were any other options. She was told nothing could be applied to the blocks, she was stuck with a liner pool.

If you decide to apply something to the blocks, you may want to consider buying a few cinder blocks and apply whatever material you are considering, and see how it holds up over time.

I was watching this video earlier today that has a DIY pool with a DIY liner. Maybe something to consider.
Man builds giant homemade swimming pool - Houston Chronicle

Good luck!!!

 

[bmoreswim]

It's not the weight of the water at issue, per se. It's how it's going to be supported, and what that support system was designed to endure. Dirt would support a 40000 gal bag of water, but you couldn't replace the bag with plaster, because the dirt could shift and the plaster would crack.

My last post was all conjecture, based on how I've watched plaster pools being built here at TFP. Six to eight inches of solid, one-piece concrete, embedded with a massive amount of rebar. I have assumed the purpose of that construction method was to ensure that it would absolutely not crack (and even those do, sometimes), and because it was all one material, would not expand and contract differently from one area to another. We know that the shell doesn't need to be water tight. The liner/plaster does that. With a liner, which is somewhat flexible, it would remain watertight if the shell was not absolutely rock solid. Like if it flexed, or if two different materials (like slab and block) expanded or contracted in slightly different ways. But those kinds of movements could cause plaster to crack, which would then leak. And we don't know how thick the floor is, or whether it has rebar in it, or how much even if it does, and how the connection was engineered between slab and block, etc... I was just posing the questions: does that matter? Or does it need to be determined ahead of time if plaster can withstand what that shell might subject it to?

What I do know, is that concrete and stone can move. And can move differently than surrounding materials of a different composition. That's why some pools are surrounded by expansion joints. Do pools constructed of slab and block get plastered? Does that work? And work well? That's beyond my knowledge.

Now if that pool had been a plaster pool, one might somewhat safely assume that it could support a fresh coat of plaster. But according to others here, it never was a plaster pool. Is the OP willing to gamble that this non-plaster pool can be successfully converted to a plaster pool?
Has the OP received estimates from any PB willing to use plaster on that shell?

Again, just posin' the questions. I have no idea what the answers are...

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Ha, ya beat me while I was typing! Why did it take me six paragraphs to say that!!

How Dirk responded in less than 6 paragraph's I'll never know!

I think Dirk and PoolGuy have you well covered the on reasons you can't (well shouldn't) turn a liner pool to concrete.

 

[Arizonarob]

I guarantee Dirk keeps talking in his sleep!

 

[Arizonarob]

Any updates on this project? I pinged another TFP'er that just built his own block wall pool, to come have a look at this thread and see if he can add anything to it.

 

[GerryUK]

Any updates on this project? I pinged another TFP'er that just built his own block wall pool, to come have a look at this thread and see if he can add anything to it.

I think Arizonarob is referring to me....here is my post....feel free to ask if you have any questions:

DIY Cement Block IG New project

I would agree that some investigation into what reinforcement was used at the time of construction would be necessary and also that restricting the depth of the refurbished pool would help

 

[TWAcres]

Hello all! It's been a year, thought it was time for an update . . . We made many calls to contractors, even had a couple show up. Received a verbal bid for over $100k (?!), and had one guy really take time taking pictures and measurements only to ghost me later - Never returned my calls. We got frustrated, and it was one of the hottest summers of record, so we gave up and had solar and AC installed instead . But here we are again, back on the hunt. Had a local company come out last week and quote $40k+ for a liner (includes equipment and replacing all PVC pipes). And are now calling on other companies to see if we can get any bids to compare to. I did take the time to re-read everyone's comments and input from last year and guess what, I have a few more questions . . .

I understand the question over whether there is rebar in the blocks and cement floor. But . . . these walls are as straight and true as the day is long. And while it is true that the floor and walls are not connected, there is no gap between them wider than a pencil line. Here's my non-engineering brained question: Isn't the cement brick and floor for structure and the liner simply for holding water? So if my structure is sound, I just need to make it water tight?

Or, can I just use my empty pool as a pre-dug hole and simply construct a new gunite pool within it (without demo)?

Lastly, there are no online records of a permit pulled for the pool, but using Google Earth, the pool is in the very first picture from 1994 and is filled until July 2006. It remains empty since then - except for the winter rain fill-up. I appreciate everyone's knowledgeable input (even if it creates more questions) and hope to show you pictures of some type of completed pool by next year!

~ Tumbleweed Acres

 

[ajw22]

Welcome back TA and thanks for the update.

I understand the question over whether there is rebar in the blocks and cement floor. But . . . these walls are as straight and true as the day is long. And while it is true that the floor and walls are not connected, there is no gap between them wider than a pencil line. Here's my non-engineering brained question: Isn't the cement brick and floor for structure and the liner simply for holding water? So if my structure is sound, I just need to make it water tight?

That is exactly what a liner does. You said in your first post that the pool had water and a liner until 2006.

Or, can I just use my empty pool as a pre-dug hole and simply construct a new gunite pool within it (without demo)?

While the walls all look true without rebar and gunite it is not as structurally rigid as a poured pool shell. With a liner the blocks can move and the liner can move and nothing cracks. Putting plaster on the blocks risks things cracking if anything moves. Any settling or shifting typically cracks a gunite/plaster pool.

If you will need permits you are going to need a structural engineer to sign off on the plans. Don't know if you can find anyone willing to put their name on plans for putting rebar and gunite and plaster inside of the block structure.

Lastly, there are no online records of a permit pulled for the pool, but using Google Earth, the pool is in the very first picture from 1994 and is filled until July 2006. It remains empty since then - except for the winter rain fill-up. I appreciate everyone's knowledgeable input (even if it creates more questions) and hope to show you pictures of some type of completed pool by next year!

I think your best shot of bringing this pool back to life is with a liner.

 

[Newdude]

I think your best shot of bringing this pool back to life is with a liner.

Even with a total custom liner it would be a project in the $10k range. including equiptment and piping. New gunite in that size would be $50k+ alone

 

[cfherrman]

Well I read page 1 and page 7, sorry I skipped the rest.

If you plan on 40k for a rehab, I would look into building a new pool in a different spot. That 40k will turn into 50k quick and a new pool quickly will be the same price.

While you're figuring what to do, buy a Intex pool around 24' and find out if you're pool people.

 

[kimkats]

SWEET! I have thought about you and the property often! SO glad you are back and going to try to get it done!

Allen is in for the win again! Good answers there!

Kim

 

[TWAcres]

If you plan on 40k for a rehab, I would look into building a new pool in a different spot. That 40k will turn into 50k quick and a new pool quickly will be the same price.

A different spot would be a much larger expense as the pool is part of an overall 8k+ square foot outdoor area. There is a gazebo, grass area, fire-pits, electricity, fencing, etc. That's why we're trying to make it work in-place.

~ Tumbleweed Acres

 

[jimmythegreek]

You can install foam and liner track and DIY a custom liner for under 4k. If pool hasn't moved since 1994 and is perfectly sound just liner it and be done. You could cut thru the deck to replace what puping needs it and then patch and coat it or tile/Reno pavers. I just worked on a pool that had plywood for walls built in the 70s it's a masonite type ply material. Doesn't take much to decouple the water from the earth