Emptying pool- and start up (with Borates)

[Shapmaui]

Hi All,

So I decided to post this new thread. I could't find anything on this topic and am looking for guidance.

I "inherited" a pool with the purchase of our home. I have been testing and testing, and my Chlorine levels have always dropped, daily.

My most recent tests revealed these ugly numbers:
Chlorine - 1
PH 7.4
CYA- over 100, maybe 120
TDS- over 900!
TA 120
CH over 450
10,000 gal pool with plaster liner

Terrible numbers, so I am draining the pool today to start over.
My pool guy has suggested I use his start up chemicals, plus start using borates.

My question is, for a 10,000 gallon pool, what do I need for chemicals to start this whole process up?
I want to be sure he isn't overselling me chemicals.

I understand chemicals when the pool is full, but when emptying and starting "fresh" I couldn't find any threads.

 

[tim5055]

First, from the results you are showing those are numbers from a pool store I'm guessing, which we don't generally trust or rely on.

Second, chlorine is a consumable product no matter what you do you are going to loose 2 - 4 ppm per day to the UV rays of the sun. Last time I was in HI it was very sunny there.

Third, CYA protects chlorine from the sun, but you will never "protect" it all (refer back to #2)

Forth, borates deal with pH fluctuations and will not stop the loss of chlorine (refer back to #2)

So, my guess is that you have a low level algae issue with the pool due to the high CYA and low FC. I also believe you are being taken advantage of by the "pool guy" as the same chemicals are used to "start up" an existing pool (different from a new plaster job) as are needed to run it from day to day. Chlorine, maybe a little muratic acid and some calcium.

Were it my pool I would fire the pool guy and take care of it yourself. A few minutes a day is all it takes.

We base our pool care system on accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that you need your own accurate test kit. Order a TF100 test kit and at least include the XL option. That will give you what you need while you are clearing the pool, and probably enough reagents for a couple of years normal use.

While you wait for it to get delivered, you have a homework reading assignment. Start with these:
ABCs of Water Chemistry
Turning Your Green Swamp Back into a Sparkling Oasis (because I have a feeling you have a low level algae issue)
Recommended Pool Chemicals
How to Chlorinate Your Pool

Please don't go back to the pool store for a test kit. To effectively practice the TFPC methods, the FAS/DPD chlorine test is essential. The TF100 test kit has this test while very few other kits do. The kits sold at the pool store generally won't won't cut it, but be careful pool store employees are known to say “it's the same thing”. Generally it's not!

 

[Shapmaui]

First, from the results you are showing those are numbers from a pool store I'm guessing, which we don't generally trust or rely on.

Second, chlorine is a consumable product no matter what you do you are going to loose 2 - 4 ppm per day to the UV rays of the sun. Last time I was in HI it was very sunny there.

Third, CYA protects chlorine from the sun, but you will never "protect" it all (refer back to #2)

Forth, borates deal with pH fluctuations and will not stop the loss of chlorine (refer back to #2)

So, my guess is that you have a low level algae issue with the pool due to the high CYA and low FC. I also believe you are being taken advantage of by the "pool guy" as the same chemicals are used to "start up" an existing pool (different from a new plaster job) as are needed to run it from day to day. Chlorine, maybe a little muratic acid and some calcium.

Were it my pool I would fire the pool guy and take care of it yourself. A few minutes a day is all it takes.

We base our pool care system on accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that you need your own accurate test kit. Order a TF100 test kit and at least include the XL option. That will give you what you need while you are clearing the pool, and probably enough reagents for a couple of years normal use.

While you wait for it to get delivered, you have a homework reading assignment. Start with these:
ABCs of Water Chemistry
Turning Your Green Swamp Back into a Sparkling Oasis (because I have a feeling you have a low level algae issue)
Recommended Pool Chemicals
How to Chlorinate Your Pool

Please don't go back to the pool store for a test kit. To effectively practice the TFPC methods, the FAS/DPD chlorine test is essential. The TF100 test kit has this test while very few other kits do. The kits sold at the pool store generally won't won't cut it, but be careful pool store employees are known to say “it's the same thing”. Generally it's not!

Hi Tim5055,

So I have read everything on this site regarding pool basics in the past couple weeks. Unfortunately, I am travelling next week for the next couple months, and didn't trust my pool to our housesitter, and hence decided to drain the pool, and get balanced before I left. Hopefully, she will just add chlorine every few days until I get back, and then I can attack the pool with the TF-100

You are correct on all accounts (low algae, some mustard algae keeps showing up), I did the test at the pool store, but he did it in front of me and showed me the results. I am ordering the TF-100, but not until I get back.


So in general, with a full drain, and refill, would I just test the pool, as I would any other time and add chemicals as required?
There are no special formulas this guy might be using for a 10,000 gallon pool, when I go there today and he says, "here is your started pack, you need to add "x" amount if this, and "X" amount of that..."

Thanks!

 

[Richard320]

Hi Tim5055,

So I have read everything on this site regarding pool basics in the past couple weeks. Unfortunately, I am travelling next week for the next couple months, and didn't trust my pool to our housesitter, and hence decided to drain the pool, and get balanced before I left. Hopefully, she will just add chlorine every few days until I get back, and then I can attack the pool with the TF-100

You are correct on all accounts (low algae, some mustard algae keeps showing up), I did the test at the pool store, but he did it in front of me and showed me the results. I am ordering the TF-100, but not until I get back.


So in general, with a full drain, and refill, would I just test the pool, as I would any other time and add chemicals as required?
There are no special formulas this guy might be using for a 10,000 gallon pool, when I go there today and he says, "here is your started pack, you need to add "x" amount if this, and "X" amount of that..."

Thanks!

You won't have any CYA in the fresh fill, so you don't even need to test it. Plug zero into poolmath for now and target 30. Why only 30? Simple: you need to SLAM just to eliminate the residual algae spores stuck in the plumbing and wherever else. It's a lot easier to do at 30 than at 60. It's also a lot easier to add chemicals then to remove them, as you're discovering.

Any chlorine in the tap water will be gone within the hour, so it's safe to call that zero, too.

Which leave you with pH, TA, and CH to adjust. if TA is below 50 and pH is below 7.2 raise TA first.

Rather than a whole bunch of if/thens, it will probably be best to have you just post results and let us guide you on the rest. Be sure to fill out your signature. Pool surface and equipment make a difference in what we recommend.

When everything is all algae-free, balanced, and sparkling, that is the time to add borates, if you still desire. But wait. No point adding them if you're SLAMming, because you'll end up losing some when you clean the filter. And no point adding any until pH and TA are set, because it gets really hard to shift them with the borates installed.

 

[tim5055]

So in general, with a full drain, and refill, would I just test the pool, as I would any other time and add chemicals as required?
There are no special formulas this guy might be using for a 10,000 gallon pool, when I go there today and he says, "here is your started pack, you need to add "x" amount if this, and "X" amount of that..."

Thanks!

Richard has it fairly well covered, but I'm sure they do have a $99 "Starter Pack" that gives you some of the basics plus algecide, phosphate remover as well as other "special" products that are great for the pool store owners bottom line but add little to your pool.

 

[Shapmaui]

You won't have any CYA in the fresh fill, so you don't even need to test it. Plug zero into poolmath for now and target 30. Why only 30? Simple: you need to SLAM just to eliminate the residual algae spores stuck in the plumbing and wherever else. It's a lot easier to do at 30 than at 60. It's also a lot easier to add chemicals then to remove them, as you're discovering.

Any chlorine in the tap water will be gone within the hour, so it's safe to call that zero, too.

Which leave you with pH, TA, and CH to adjust. if TA is below 50 and pH is below 7.2 raise TA first.

Rather than a whole bunch of if/thens, it will probably be best to have you just post results and let us guide you on the rest. Be sure to fill out your signature. Pool surface and equipment make a difference in what we recommend.

When everything is all algae-free, balanced, and sparkling, that is the time to add borates, if you still desire. But wait. No point adding them if you're SLAMming, because you'll end up losing some when you clean the filter. And no point adding any until pH and TA are set, because it gets really hard to shift them with the borates installed.

Hi Richard,

I don't have the TF-100 test kit yet, so I would be using my pool store to test for me, with me right there looking at results.
That's as close as I can get now.

So I would test for CH, TA, and Ph. as soon as my pool refills again.

But to SLAM, I believe you recommend to have the TF-100 kit, so how do I SLAM without the TF-100?

Thanks!

 

[tim5055]

Unfortunately, I am travelling next week for the next couple months, and didn't trust my pool to our housesitter, and hence decided to drain the pool, and get balanced before I left. Hopefully, she will just add chlorine every few days until I get back, and then I can attack the pool with the TF-100

If that is the case I wouldn't even do the drain and refill until you returned. Have her add chlorine every day or two and attack it when you get back.

Or, I bet you could get one of the experts around here to come live in your house while you are gone and clean it up for you.

- - - Updated - - -

But to SLAM, I believe you recommend to have the TF-100 kit, so how do I SLAM without the TF-100?

Thanks!

You can't.

To SLAM Process you need to be able to test the chlorine multiple times a day.

 

[Shapmaui]

If that is the case I wouldn't even do the drain and refill until you returned. Have her add chlorine every day or two and attack it when you get back.

Or, I bet you could get one of the experts around here to come live in your house while you are gone and clean it up for you.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't.

To SLAM Process you need to be able to test the chlorine multiple times a day.

Ha! I am sure many would be willing to travel to HI and help with my pool.

On a different note, I had already begun emptying my pool, which has now just refilled.
I am about to bring a water sample to a new pool company, and compare to the other old one I had been using.

Hopefully I can get it managed enough to get me through the end of July when I come back. Hoping I don't come back to a green pool!

What do you think about using a chlorine floater this summer, so my housesitter is just adding tabs until I get back?

 

[tim5055]

Ha! I am sure many would be willing to travel to HI and help with my pool.

On a different note, I had already begun emptying my pool, which has now just refilled.
I am about to bring a water sample to a new pool company, and compare to the other old one I had been using.

Hopefully I can get it managed enough to get me through the end of July when I come back. Hoping I don't come back to a green pool!

What do you think about using a chlorine floater this summer, so my house-sitter is just adding tabs until I get back?

You have a pool on the small size. Each puck the house-sitter adds will add 3.3ppm of CYA t the pool. My floater holds three tabs, so each floater load in your pool would be 10 CYA. It won't take long cor CYA to get out of control at that rate.

 

[Shapmaui]

You have a pool on the small size. Each puck the house-sitter adds will add 3.3ppm of CYA t the pool. My floater holds three tabs, so each floater load in your pool would be 10 CYA. It won't take long cor CYA to get out of control at that rate.

OK, ok, no pucks.
What would you recommend? Just add bleach for the summer? If so, maybe a cup every day? Just to get me through.
Or, ughhhhh, hire a pool guy??

 

[tim5055]

OK, ok, no pucks.
What would you recommend? Just add bleach for the summer? If so, maybe a cup every day? Just to get me through.
Or, ughhhhh, hire a pool guy??

My 23,000 gallon pool in South Carolina could eat 90 or so ounces of 8.25% bleach a day. You pool is half the size, but probably sunnier. You could easily consume 60 oz (1/2 bottle of 8.25% bleach) a day

 

[Shapmaui]

Hey All!

I am back in Hawaii, and I just got my TF-100 test kit today!! All summer, my house sitter added chlorine tabs to the floater, I know, this isn't recommended, but it was easier for her. My pool looks nice, but we experienced a little sting in the eyes yesterday.

I just finished testing...here are my numbers:
FC 4
CC 0.5
PH 7.2
CYA 50
CH 250
TA 110

That's it. A couple other things.

I was a little unsure about exact PH as the test is a color one, and its not very accurate. I do LOVE though the other tests in the kit. Putting in drops until a color changes- super easy to get results. The FAS/DPD test was to me a little imprecise, as I didn't know exactly how far to hold the tube away from my eyes, and does the circle need to completely disappear?

 

[kimkats]

I can help with the pH test. I hold a white plate (plastic) behind the tube under a very bight light (my stove hood with a 60w bulb in it) I hold the tube a arms length with a slight bend in my elbow. I move the plate back and forth to help me see the color math. Know it might be 7.5 if the color is between 7.4 and 7.6.

You say FAS/DPD which is the FC test (add powder to change the color to red). I think you mean the *beloved* CYA test (can you see my eye roll from there when I say that? LOL) Here is what I came up with for this test. GLANCE!! Do NOT look for the dot or you will see it.

CYA test helps:

-Do the mix at the very beginning and let it sit while you do the other tests
-Pour the mixture to the first line (100)
-GLANCE in at the dot, look away then GLANCE in again. If you can see the dot
-Pour to the next line (80)
-GLANCE in.........if you see the dot go line by line until you cannot see the dot at a GLANCE.

I hope this helps!

Kim