New Owner Troubles with Plumbing

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C

chebyshev

0
May 25, 2018
40
Bethany, CT
Background: I bought a house with an in-ground pool a month ago and I'm trying to get it up and running right now. I'm an engineer with a strong background in fluid dynamics. I'm pretty handy around the house and cars, so I feel like I should be able to handle this with some guidance from more knowledgeable people.

I had a company come "open" the pool - basically they installed the ladder and railing, threw in some chemicals to get rid of the algae, and tried to turn it on. There was a leak in the chlorinator, so they couldn't get it running for any significant period of time so they left and charged me $300. They said they didn't have the required o-ring to fix it. I went out and got the o-ring, fixed the chlorinator and turned it on.

I've attached a crude schematic of how I understand the pool to be plumbed. EDIT: Pump Pic

One issue is that I don't know what the story is with the port labeled (2) in the schematic. I can't get it to do anything. I assume it can't be an intake port because there's only 2 pipes coming into the Dial-a-flo, one from (S), the skimmer, and one from (3). But it also doesn't output water into the pool, so I can't figure out what it is supposed to be doing. I ran a fish tape ~15ft into it thinking it was maybe clogged, but didn't feel anything. There is only 1 pipe coming out of the top of the filter and going underground.

Another problem is that the pump never fully fills with water and there's always small bubbles in the water being returned into the pool at (1). I've read that these are symptoms of an air leak in the suction side, but I can't find one. I've replaced the seal ring around the pump basket lid and the o-ring in the coupling between the Dial-a-flow and the pump. I've tried burning incense around all the connections I can access on the suction side and looking for smoke entering the system (like I've done for intake manifold leak detection on vehicles). EDIT: Pump Video

Right now the only way I can get water to reliably enter the pump is if I keep the Dial-a-flo in the middle, pulling from both (S) and (3). If I turn the handle to use either port alone, not nearly enough water is pulled into the pump. With the Dial-a-flo in the middle, the suction at (S) feels significantly weaker than that at (3), but I've no way to really measure that.

I took the top off the filter, removed the finger assembly, hosed it all off (lots of greenish clumpy DE was in there), and reinstalled. The pressure in the system at this point was ~15 psi. I then added 6 lbs of DE to the skimmer and the pressure went up to ~18 psi. After running for ~8 hours, the pressure was ~25 psi, so I did 5 bumps on the handle and it dropped to ~20 psi. Overnight it went up to ~25 psi again, so I did a flush by bumping 8 times, opening the drain, flushing out all the water and DE (which was now all yellowish) and repeating. I then turned it back on and added 5 lbs of DE. When I left the house this morning, the pressure was ~18 psi.


Any ideas about how I should proceed from here? It is nominally working I guess, but there are clearly problems and I'd like to get it working properly to start the season. I'd also like to learn as much as I can in the process so that I can manage the maintenance myself in the future with some confidence. It all seemed fairly straightforward, but I'm at a loss right now.

Thanks for any help!
 

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c,

Welcome to TFP... a great place to find the answers to all your "Troubling flow" questions..

Assuming your "Dial-a-flo" is an older version of a three way Jandy valve, then the way your pool should work as follows...

The valve before the pump lets you select where the pump is getting its water... Either from your Skimmer, or from #3 which I assume is a vacuum port, or a combination of both.. Water is sucked into the pump and then pushed out of the pump and through your DE filter, and back into the pool at #1 and #2..

Some questions for you...

1. Do both your #1 and #2 have what we call eyeballs that allow you to change the direction of the water coming out??

2. Does your #3 have a little door or is it just an open pipe?

Your pump should be able to run on your skimmer input alone... The fact that it can't is a problem.. Looking at your video it is apparent that the pump is not getting enough water. This is most likely due to an air leak, but could also be because the skimmer line is somewhat plugged..

If this were my pool, I would do the following...

Ensure that the water in the pool is half way up the skimmer opening.

Ensure that the Weir door inside the mouth of the skimmer is not stuck in the up position.

I would remove the top of the Dial-a-flo and use a Drain King and force water backwards and into the skimmer.. This will help unclog the skimmer pipe (if clogged)... I would use the Drain King on the pipe going to #3 to make sure it is clear and confirm that the pipe if connected to #3.

I would then lube all the O-Rings in the valve and reassemble.

My guess is that your Dial-a-flo is the source of your air leak and needs to be replaced or rebuilt.. But that is just a guess..

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.
 
Thanks a lot for the welcome and tips!

Let me respond to your questions and provide more information:

1. None of the ports had eyeballs until the company came to open and installed them in all 3 ports.
2. Port 3 currently has an eyeball installed. I should probably remove that since it is just restricting flow into the pump, right? What is the proper thing to screw into a port like that?

The water level in the pool is more than halfway up the skimmer opening - almost covering it actually.

There is no Weir door installed on the skimmer opening. Should I look into getting one?

I actually ordered a Drain King from Amazon earlier this morning, so hopefully when I return from camping on Monday I'll be able to try your suggestions with it.

I did take the cover off the Dial-a-flo (which is a Hayward SP733 as far as I can tell) to understand how it works. When I reinstalled the cover I inspected and lubed the o-ring. No air leak was apparent around this joint when I did the smoke test.
 
C,

I had assumed #3 was an input based upon your diagram. But if the pool guys installed an Eyeball, then I would have to assume it is a return line the same as #1 and #2..

This would most likely mean that your valve selects between your Skimmer and your Main Drain... (I assume you have a main drain.. do you???)

I can guess all day, but I can't tell you what is what from here... Once your Drain King comes in, I would use it to verify where each line goes.

Pump inputs generally come from only three inputs.. Skimmer(s), Main Drain, or Vacuum ports... The filter output generally goes to only pool returns (eyeballs) when there is no valve on the output side of the filter.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
I'm pretty confident port 3 is an input because I can feel water being sucked into it when the pump is on. At this point I assume those pool guys didn't know what they were dealing with at the time and just installed eyeballs on everything that looked like a return line. It sounds like it is probably a vacuum port. Is there a special fitting I screw into it?

I don't think I have a main drain (heard those aren't common in the northeast, but I don't know why), but I can't see the bottom of the pool right now, so I can't be sure yet.
 
c,

Vacuum ports have a little "safety" door... Without this door, it is possible that it could cause someone to become entrapped and drown.. Not likely, depending on where the port is, but would be possible for a small child...

If your pool is green and you can't see the bottom, then I suggest you read our Pool School and see what TFP is all about.. Use the link at the top of this page..

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
Ok, thanks for the info about the vacuum port. I'll get the right door for it.

The pool isn't green anymore - it is full of dead algae from the shock and algicide and still cloudy. I think because the pump/filter system isn't working quite right it is not clearing up. I've watched a bunch of videos about how to handle the water so I think I'll be able to stumble through that once I get the mechanicals functioning well.

One more question if you don't mind:

What is the best way to diagnose port 2? Should I put the Drain King into it and try to force water backward through the filter? Seems like that would push any clog into the top of the filter. Maybe disconnect the outflow coupling at the top of the filter first?
 
C,

I would use the Drain King to see if you can figure out where the pipe actually goes..

Good luck with you water and keep us in mind when you get tired of having to fight algae each year... :D

Jim R.
 
Hello, just to give you some hope, I've had all of these issues and more and have a working pool now.

#3 sounds like a vacuum port without the proper vacuum port fitting. They look like this: https://www.amazon.com/PoolSupplyTown-Rotation-Fitting-Replaces-W400BWHP/dp/B01B46B0Z2

A few questions:

1. Can you see the bottom of your pool? There should be a main drain at the deep end. This main drain should connect to your suction line, either through the skimmer port (read #2), or directly through to your suction line (with or without a valve).
2. How many holes does your skimmer have? If there are two, the one facing the pool is usually connected to the main drain, and the one farther from the pool is going to the suction line of your pump. You can tell when you have the pump on, whichever has suction is going to the pump, and the other is the main drain. If there is only one hole, that is going to your suction line, and the main drain is connected straight to your suction line as well.
3. If you turn the valve over to the skimmer only, is there no suction in the vacuum port?
4. Port 2 could be a return line that isn't ejecting water because it's in series with port 1, and your flow rate is too low for water to flow out from the second return (due to potential block/air leak in the suction line). To test this, plug port 1 and see if air bubbles start coming out of port 2.

The questions above should resolve how your pool system is actually plumbed, and would be slightly different then what's shown in your diagram. Now that you know that, it's time to get rid of your air leak to the pump. To do this, nevermind that incense method, this is the best way to find the air leak:

Find an air leak in your swimming pool. - YouTube

As stated in the video, start from the lowest point and keep moving up until you find it.

To clear a blockage, I find this video gives a good explanation:

How to Clear Blockages in the Circulation Lines of a Pool : Pool Care - YouTube

I find the best method is the drain king going into the suction line from the pump basket. Then momentarily building up pressure (5-10 seconds) at the skimmer port with a tennis ball or plug. Another option is the blow line of a shop vac to blow air into the suction line through the pump basket, and notice air voilently coming out of the skimmer port. You can turn your valve to isolate for the skimmer port, then vacuum port, and blow them both out.

Good luck
 
I did more investigation of the plumbing today using a Drain King.

Port 1: Obviously plumbed to the outflow from the filter.

Port 2: Still no idea. I can't get flow through this port to anything else I can see. If I put the Drain King into Port 2, it seemed like water was flowing to somewhere, but I have no idea where. If I put the Drain King in the pipe after the filter, it pushes water out Port 1. If I plug Port 1, pressure just builds. Port 2 still does nothing.

Port 3: The pool store lady called this a "low suction" port and said they used to be installed in lieu of a main drain. Drain King usage in this port makes sense.

Skimmer: Only has one hole and the Drain King usage again makes sense.

I replaced the o-ring and the handle washer in my 3 way valve and that fixed something so that now I can run it off the skimmer only. However if I try to use Port 3 only, it still can't get enough water to run the pump.

The pump still runs with a lot of air visible in the window. I tried running the hose over all the different places air could be leaking in and it never cleared up so it seems like there's something else going on.

Could my filter be horribly clogged, restricting the flow enough so that the pump can't really work right? It is running at about 20 psi right now, but that does down slightly if I bump the DE off the fingers. It goes back up quickly though. Maybe I should take the filter top off again and soak it in Filter Blaster this time? The lady at the pool store said that was an option.

Could there be something wrong with the pump itself? Broken impeller or something? Could that cause symptoms like this or would it just not work at all?

This all seems so simple and it is killing me that I can't figure it out!
 

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I just decided to remove the pump from the basket assembly and found a bunch of pebbles stuck in the impeller. Along with that the o-ring around the diffuser was pretty beat up, but the pool store was closed so I couldn't get a new one. I thought removing the pebbles would have changed something, but upon reassembly it doesn't seem to have.

Could the system be sucking in air around that diffuser seal? There's a ton of bubbles coming out into the pool and I can hear gurgling in the filter. I figure I'll replace the seal when the store is open again and see if that fixes the air problem. If not, maybe I'll schedule someone to come look at it for me...
 
Well I've replaced every possible seal and o-ring on the suction side of the pump and only succeeded in increasing the amount of bubbles entering the pool. I've tried running water over the various fittings and joints to no avail. The pump is now losing prime periodically, I assume because of this air leak.

I have no idea where to go from here apart from calling a pro.
 
chebyshev said:
Well I've replaced every possible seal and o-ring on the suction side of the pump and only succeeded in increasing the amount of bubbles entering the pool. I've tried running water over the various fittings and joints to no avail. The pump is now losing prime periodically, I assume because of this air leak.

I have no idea where to go from here apart from calling a pro.
Click to expand...

The air is coming in somewhere before the pump or at the pump itself. After the pump, leaks are identified by water coming out, rather then air coming in. So the clogged filter shouldn't not be the cause of this problem. If you've checked all of the exposed (above-ground) plumbing joints, valves, seals, pump lid etc. by flowing water directly over and around each of those joints one-by-one for a good 20-30 seconds at each location, while watching the basket to see if the air is displaced by water, and it still hasn't, then your air leak is possibly coming from a leak or blockage in your under-ground plumbing. You may want to try the bucket test to see if you do have a leak somewhere in your underground plumbing. Search "Pool Bucket Test" on YouTube.

Some other things I would try:
1. Blowing out your vacuum port line (port 3) with a shop vac/snaking it/drain king pressure build-up and release. There could be leaf/debris blockage there. (make sure your valve is isolating the vacuum port so the skimmer line is closed).
2. Do the same with your skimmer line.

Are you able to contact the previous owners of the property, directly or through a real estate agent you dealt with?
 
Thanks for the further tips. The mechanicals and plumbing are actually inside a shed-like area near the pool, so I'm nervous about running too much water out of the hose in there. Maybe I'll hold the shop vac under it as I do it...


If I do build pressure in the pipes with the drain king and a plug on the other end to clear clogs, could I harm the pipes? Could I rupture one underground by building too much pressure?


Unfortunately the previous owners aren't accessible to me (short sale and then a flip in between). There is a sticker on the filter from the company that did the install, maybe I'll contact them.
 
I just had a little bit of success, finally.

I fiddled with the diverter valve (Hayward SP-733 I think) and after moving it 360° and back to both sides open, the bubbles in the filter window cleared up significantly and a lot less bubbles started coming out of the jet (port 1) in the pool. This makes me think it is leaking somewhere and I just slightly plugged the hole.

However if I move the valve to pull from either the skimmer exclusively or the low suction (port 3) exclusively, it goes back to having a ton of air in the window.

Any idea what could possibly be wrong with that diverter valve? I've had it apart and it seems so simple in there...
 
I just did some more tinkering and I think I'm close to sorting it out. If I lift up on the handle, the air leak is almost 100% gone. See this pic for my current solution.

The big square seal on the rotating part of the valve (7 in this diagram) was all beat up, so I should probably replace that as well as the spring (3 in the diagram). I've already replaced all the other o-rings.
 
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