16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

[setsailsoon]

HeyChris I have only seen these online but they look interesting.

JETARRAY® INLINE THERAPY JETS - Sultan Products

The All-New JetArray® therapy jet delivers better action than any standard jet.

sultanproducts.com

Also i am looking at this Muffler device to eliminate the noise of the Venturi action and the need for a blower. I think it goes on the raised spa beam area where the round dial adjustment devices used to go.

Airport - Paramount Pool & Spa Systems

The Paramount Pool & Spa Systems’ Air-Port is easy to install, greatly improves the efficiency of the spa air intake line, and provides the customer with a quieter spa experience by reducing the noise created by air intake points

www.1paramount.com

Stuart,
Thanks much. Wow these things can really make the pool and spa pop! I'll talk to you and let you know what I find out.

Chris
btw we used to live in Stuart now in Palm City close by!

 

[Katodude]

When you install the REM (Relay Equipment Manager) and the DashPanel. You will also install the Nixie which is the stand alone pool controller. You do NOT need to have an Intellicenter.

I run my entire pool/spa setup with this and just this.

I will run on a Pi3 but I recommend a Pi4 which is an upgrade I did a while back. Make sure you install the PM2 stuff so that you have it all autorestart.

Here are the full step by step instructions on how to set up the Pi and load up all the software.

nodejs poolController dashPanel setup and configuration on a Raspberry Pi for the novice

A dashboard panel for tagyoureit/nodejs-poolController - rstrouse/nodejs-poolController-dashPanel

github.com

 

[Katodude]

You will want this board for all your sensors (also has the RS-485 for communication to the pump). You can also power the entire assembly with one 24VAC power supply (which you will need for the valve actuators).

Building Automation Eight-Layer Stackable HAT for Raspberry Pi ZERO-5

Building Automation HAT has all IO's needed for Building Automation Systems; 8 universal inputs; 4xtriac outputs; 4x0-10V outputs; RTS, 1-Wire, RS485, Watchdog, 24V.

sequentmicrosystems.com

You will also want at least one of these. Each board has 8 relays. If 8 is enough (pun intended) then you only need one board (I currently use 7 relays). You can stack a few of these if you need more relays.

Relays Eight of 4A/120V 8-Layer Stackable HAT for Raspberry Pi

8 Relays 4A/120V 8-layer stackable HAT for Raspberry Pi Status LEDs and NO/NC contacts Eight layer stackable to 64 relays Pluggable Connectors 26-16 AW

sequentmicrosystems.com

 

[Katodude]

This is the interface that I use to control the pool (it’s a web app). This is what it looks like on my iPad. Its pretty good on the phone as well.

Ignore the chemistry stuff for now, I am still upgrading the pH sensor. But I do have a 10K temp sensor, and I am reading pressure from the filter as well.

 

[setsailsoon]

This is the interface that I use to control the pool (it’s a web app). This is what it looks like on my iPad. Its pretty good on the phone as well.

Ignore the chemistry stuff for now, I am still upgrading the pH sensor. But I do have a 10K temp sensor, and I am reading pressure from the filter as well.

Dude,

This is incredibly helpful! Thanks so much! Looks like I need to upgrade my Raspberry Pi! Wife is very skeptical just like she was when I took over pool maintenance on the previous pool. @kimkats will remember that! I'm hopeful this will turn out the same way but I'm installing an Intellicenter load center just to keep her assured I have a workable back up plan. She really liked the remote features that let us warm up the spa from our local tiki bar so it was hot and ready when we got home!

Chris

 

[Katodude]

Remote access is slightly more complicated. Since this is hosted on a local web server you have to be on your network to control it.

You can VPN into your network. Or in my case I use HomeAssistant (with remote access) to turn on my spa and adjust the temperature.

 

[setsailsoon]

Remote access is slightly more complicated. Since this is hosted on a local web server you have to be on your network to control it.

You can VPN into your network. Or in my case I use HomeAssistant (with remote access) to turn on my spa and adjust the temperature.

OK thank you. We have a mostly smart home with extensive Alexa interfaced items. Everything from HVAC to geo control on the garage doors. Should be able to get Alexa to turn on the spa without too much trouble.

Chris

 

[rstrouse]

If you run Home Assistant there is a plug-in for that. Then all of it is part of your home automation.

 

[setsailsoon]

Pool update. Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread earlier today

Finally looks like things are falling into place to begin the dig next week. I need to close couple the dig with forming due to the fact the hole will be very close to large footers that are major load bearing footers so I need the forming walls up right away and concrete asap. Robin and I are thinking about making a video of this project starting from the project planing through design, estimating, scheduling, permitting and construction. We saw a similar video from another couple in Florida that did similar for a project with a builder. We're thinking an OB in Florida for an owner that's subbing it out might be helpful to others. Will keep you posted on this. Right now we're swamped just getting materials, excavation sub, forming sub, pluming sub, electrical sub all in sync and ready to start next week... off to meet with several of them now.

Chris
PS after today or Monday we're going to be $50,000 pregnant with this job!

Views out the back door... I hope the calm gets pretty busy next week!

 

[Newdude]

 

[StuartBound]

That sounds great about making a video. We are moving into our new home Sunday at Highpointe and will be starting the process of an OB IG/spa soon. maybe we can meet up and share some ideas?

Best of Luck with the Dig on your "Infinity" edge pool. .

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Watch out for gators! That water is a little too close to the property for my taste. We wouldn’t want to read any headlines about a nice FL couple that got dragged off their pool loungers and drowned by a 12ft gator.

 

[setsailsoon]

That sounds great about making a video. We are moving into our new home Sunday at Highpointe and will be starting the process of an OB IG/spa soon. maybe we can meet up and share some ideas?

Best of Luck with the Dig on your "Infinity" edge pool. .
View attachment 551694

Stuart,
That's less than 20 min from us. We know others moving in to Highpointe. Looks like a great area. I'd be happy to share what I've learned so far. PM me and we can make some time to meet up.

 

[setsailsoon]

Pool Update:

Should have photos from excavation and forming from last week but no joy yet. I build an entire custom design OB home last year and only had to fire one sub. The pool started of with that. I think he legitimately wanted to do the work but he just has too much on his plate. I could visualize having a big hole in the ground near my large load bearing footers for the house and not enough labor to finish then trying to get my job done while he's also trying to get everything else he over-committed to. In my experience for construction projects you have to feel good and ready with the crews. I didn't feel that way so I shut them down. Truth is I think they were relieved. So now I had to activate plan B. That's the #2 bidder. So I had to revisit job sites and get the new quote going which should be in Monday. I was amazed when I went to the job sites. I understand housing is slowing down but pool building is still on fire. I'll be working on another quote if I don't get a bid on Monday. Also, the more I think about the dig the more I'm thinking I may go for sheet pile protection for the footers. In the grand scheme it's about $3000 extra, and won't delay the job at all since it can be done before the dig starts.

Doing this euro gutter design along with the infinity edge is more expensive on the pool - about $3000 for the gunite and another $1000 for the forming. It also requires a contractor that's done it before or at least knows how to use construction foam to form the gutter. It also requires a lot more water and that runs suction plumbing up to 3" and my pump size up to the commercial 5 hp vs pump. So it sort of snowballs on you. One good think though is availability of materials and concrete are way better. Concrete is a couple day lead time and forming/plumbing materials are next day!

Fingers crossed I get my first contractors signed up and started soon but not promising anything to the wife till materials have at least been delivered.

Chris

 

[JamesW]

suction plumbing up to 3" and my pump size up to the commercial 5 hp vs pump.

The pump can hit about 260 GPM.

Even if you do not plan to go to 260 GPM, you should still allow for that possibility.

If you undersize the plumbing, the pump will cavitate.

You also want plenty of main drain grate surface area.

Maybe 6 main drains or 4 commercial drains.

I would go at least 4" for the suction.

or (2) 3" lines from 2 sets of commercial main drains or 2 unblockable drains to a 4" manifold.

Maybe (3) sets of main drains with 2.5" lines from each set to a 4" manifold.

Maybe (4) sets of main drains with 2" lines from each set to a 4" manifold.

Troughs tend to catch a lot of debris and this can clog a main drain grate pretty quickly, so you want plenty of surface area to account for blockages without causing the pump to cavitate.

For the return side, I would use (2) 3" lines or (3) 2.5" lines.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/commercial/pumps/whisperfloxf-vs/manuals/whisperfloxf-maxeprofxf-vs-pumps-manual-english.pdf

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/commercial/pumps/whisperfloxf-vs/whisperfloxf-vs-pump-brochure.pdf

Pipe Size and Flow Rates.​

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump.[7]

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM
4.0"	235 GPM	312 GPM

 

[setsailsoon]

The pump can hit about 260 GPM.

Even if you do not plan to go to 260 GPM, you should still allow for that possibility.

If you undersize the plumbing, the pump will cavitate.

You also want plenty of main drain grate surface area.

Maybe 6 main drains or 4 commercial drains.

I would go at least 4" for the suction.

or (2) 3" lines from 2 sets of commercial main drains or 2 unblockable drains to a 4" manifold.

Maybe (3) sets of main drains with 2.5" lines from each set to a 4" manifold.

Maybe (4) sets of main drains with 2" lines from each set to a 4" manifold.

Troughs tend to catch a lot of debris and this can clog a main drain grate pretty quickly, so you want plenty of surface area to account for blockages without causing the pump to cavitate.

For the return side, I would use (2) 3" lines or (3) 2.5" lines.

View attachment 552952

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/commercial/pumps/whisperfloxf-vs/manuals/whisperfloxf-maxeprofxf-vs-pumps-manual-english.pdf

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/commercial/pumps/whisperfloxf-vs/whisperfloxf-vs-pump-brochure.pdf

Pipe Size and Flow Rates.​

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump.[7]

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM
4.0"	235 GPM	312 GPM

James,

I couldn't agree more and thanks much for the technical advice, as usual I find it to be absolutely correct. Also, there's the penny wise practical part of trying to save. When I look at the total cost for this pool 3" suction piping vs 2" or 2.5" is nothing. I wouldn't even think of going small on this.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

07 Feb Update:

View outside is unchanged. I did find a forming/excavation contractor that I verified is very good from my own inspections of work in progress. However, he's not available any time soon for my pool and he wants to use a concrete supplier that I don't think will pass my qualification requirements. I find this to be a little weird since I know he does do work for my two short-listed gunite suppliers. Either way, I still need a qualified forming and steel sub. Lots of choices for excavation and prefer to work with one sub for excavation plus forming/steel/plumbing. I have a separate sub for electrical that I know very well. So far, I've identified and texted with two excavation/forming/steel/plumbing subs. Expect prices today/tomorrow and will visit their current sites today as well. Looks like I'm in for a week or two delay.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

So far, I'm surprised that finding and scheduling excavation/forming is more difficult than the house OB was for the most part. This is apparently due to the fact that most of the qualified crews work with a local pool builder or concrete company. Not that they won't work with OB's just they don't market that way so it's mostly a word of mouth business in this area. Also, working at the very lowest levels with the craft and semi-skilled level is difficult. First, there's a language barrier and second there's the business requirements for insurance and workman's comp that I need and they don't usually do themselves. I do actually carry GL for the project but I want to keep that secondary so I require insurance certificates with me as named insured from each sub. This isn't hard at all with legitimate businesses but it's not familiar at all at the craft labor level.

I've found my best access to the crews is through the concrete/gunite suppliers. They know I can't use them unless I get the craft labor on site to prepare for gunite. They all also know I want to see "work in progress" before I commit so they seem to be lining up the subs they like to work with. Another alternative contracting mechanism is for me to buy a complete pool shell. Meaning one of the more enterprising subs will manage that whole effort for me. Of course, they mark it up too and for me I lose a lot of control of the interface. Like everything there are plusses and minuses but I prefer to avoid this execution strategy.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

06 Feb 24 Update

OK, things are looking up on excavation and forming. I have two bidders now working on prices (fingers crossed they are w/i budget). At least one is coming to the site tomorrow. Once we get the dig started we should be ready for gunite in 5-7 working days. Gunite is 1-2 days max. @Katodude has been incredibly helpful on the controls using Raspberry Pi v4. Parts already on order. This system is really amazing. The cost is almost nothing compared to a standard automation system. Basic components are under $140 for an 8 relay system. I can add 8 more for another $45. Of course that's not the complete system I also need actuators, relays, and a weatherproof housing. But still looking at about $1100 and that's with an Intellicenter control center that's about $750. Much less if I can adapt a 40000 series Intematics load center to contain the standard 3 hp relays.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Quick question for you power people. I'm going to be using the Pentair 5 hp commercial vs pump. Specs show max amperage of 20-21 amps@ 240V so I'm expecting this will far exceed the standard 3 hp relays we all use for most pool controls. Is there a special relay for pool service up to this HP or can I use a standard Hunter irrigation pump relay start for up to 7.5 hp pumps like the PSR-52? @ajw22 or @JamesW or @Jimrahbe or anyone else ideas?

Thanks.

Chris