16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

[Dirk]

I'm late to the ethernet party, but know we ran over 6k feet of ethernet when we built the house. Extreme? Probably. But at the time, Cat6 was cheap and it can do so much, so we ran it everywhere, and used colors for different purposes. To this day, we still have hundreds of un-used runs, but do use a lot if it....

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When you are building, it is so much easier to run it now. Even after all that wire, in the last few years we have ran even more. Didn't think we would have a pool when we built the house, so the new backyard space had to get all new runs as well.

I am also the kind of guy that will hard wire over wireless all day long. Video, internet, audio, even controls are run off all that wire.

Folks here can brag about their pool or yard all they want! Or their amazing outdoor kitchens. Or pool houses. Nope. Those two pictures are the most beautiful thing I've ever seen!

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

BTW. Who says stucco does not need to be painted? This guy with a CBS house just had his whole outside repainted. I anticipate the paint to probably last about 15 or so years, but you do need to repaint.

Probably sooner than that as you are always repairing settling cracks in the marshmallow crème...err Stucco..... I've had to do touch up every year for four years so far. If you don't patch the cracks, water gets behind the stucco and all sorts of issues happen. And plastic wall anchors? Are you mounting pictures? I am talking actual structures going into the walls...

 

[Dirk]

Probably sooner than that as you are always repairing settling cracks in the marshmallow crème...err Stucco..... I've had to do touch up every year for four years so far. If you don't patch the cracks, water gets behind the stucco and all sorts of issues happen. And plastic wall anchors? Are you mounting pictures? I am talking actual structures going into the walls...

Different anchors for different jobs. Find the studs when even more support is needed. I've mounted my pool equipment. Solar supply/return lines. But no pictures! You're not making much of a case against stucco. I suspect everyone's experience is different based on climate and how the stucco was originally installed. Can it be problematic? Of course, as can any type of exterior siding material, especially if it was not installed well. I'm merely pointing out to the OP that a stucco exterior is not automatically the problem you are painting it to be (or not painting it, in my case!).

My childhood home had redwood siding in front, stucco on the other three sides. The redwood warped and peeled and chipped, required several repair jobs, and eventually had to be replaced. The three stucco sides are still doing fine, 64 years later! Some cracks. No mold or mildew or other "problems." I get it if you don't like the look of stucco, but you're never going to convince me it is an inferior siding material.

@setsailsoon, you're exterior will be block, do I have that right? Did you mention how that is going to get finished? Part of the reason I went on and on about things to think about now (and could go on and on longer), is to give you things to think about planning for at this stage, so you don't have to retrofit after everything is buttoned up. I mentioned the hose bibs, I've had to add exterior lights, plugs, irrigation, etc, etc. I have the wrong windows. I'm getting ready to punch in a new door. It's the difference between buying an existing home that was designed and built by someone maximizing profit, vs being in on the construction from the get go. I can't imagine the stress of going through a home build, but I've always fantasized about doing it, and building a house exactly how I'd want it! Very envious!!

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I guess you don't have an "Energy Star" Stucco house that requires 6" long screws to get into the studs (because of several layers of Styrofoam, which honestly probably somewhat negates the fire resistance-- I am not kidding on the 6" either) which are almost impossible to find (chicken wire Faraday cage, stud finders can't work) without drilling 15 holes (I can find that stud in 13 holes! Find that stud, man!) that you then need to patch and paint. I am THE neighborhood guy now when someone needs that to be done, so I've done plenty of those. As much as I hate it I am a pro at patching and fixing stuff, inside and out.

Of course with that much screw into the marshmallow crème you then need something with good surface area to go against the stucco, so it ends up not being much better than a wall anchor anyway when you are done.

In the dry climates you might have a point (except for the incessant settling cracks, or if someone kicks or trips into the house forcing the need for repair as well) but much wetter than a desert, there are major issues with stucco. I lived most of my life in the Upper Midwest and stucco there was a recipe for disaster. You can't even buy pre-mixed dry stucco there-- no one has it or uses it.

If you need to repair stucco there, you have to mix it up yourself. Yes, some of the 50+ year old houses still have it, but they don't look like you describe once torn into, in general they are a tear down. Stucco is actually okay if you maintain it yearly or maybe even bi-annually, but who wants to do that? All it takes for major issues--- even here in the desert (with monsoons) is a few cracks to be ignored. Most of the cookie cutter houses have leaks in the walls around the service entrances for example. I had to fix my own by ripping into the wall from the inside, and sealing it that way... great stuff that stucco is....but it wasn't done right? It rarely is....

Vinyl and Aluminum most places work just as well. If it weren't 4000F in the shade here in the summer it would work here too, but the stuff would literally melt and turn into dust from the UV... Never understood why aluminum didn't catch on in the West, but maybe it's the powder coating UV fading or something. It's really amazing how fast something that isn't (crud) brown here fades (even that fades but it's harder to tell). Stuff that would last 15 years anywhere else is completely obliterated in 2 years here due to the UV. I don't imagine that Cali would be better.

I get why stucco is used in the West where irrigation is needed and wildfires are an issue (NEVER believe it when a west coast person says their area is "disaster free"... the wildfires are incredibly scary and very common).. at a certain moisture point though it's terrible. I'd guess-- Western Nebraska or Colorado maybe, and east... And yes, painting it vs wood it does last a little longer, but only by a couple of years. I never said wood was a great siding, but if you paint it here, it does hold up okay. I still don't get why you think there is a difference with painting wood versus stucco... very minor if so...

 

[rstrouse]

Actually you are describing EIFS systems not 3 coat stucco. I too have an EIFS system that starts with the building envelope covered by a moisture barrier. Then a layer of 1 1/2" foam with water channel, followed by approximately 3/4" of scratch coat embedded in chicken wire. Next there is a layer of troweled imperfect smooth acrylic followed by a color layer that is also troweled on. Finally they went around with a stain to mottle the color layer. Yes it is a light tan final color but the color coat was nearly white beige. If you paint the stuff you have to be careful to use the right paint. If you do not you can cause moisture to build up in the layers.

I hear you with the paint. There isn't any paint that holds up to UV fading. Other houses that use cementitious siding or have wood trim need regular painting. It turns to powder.

Here's a tip. I have some 3/8" stainless tubing that I used for my mister system. Whenever I need to make a penetration, I simply drill a hole large enough to accommodate the pipe diameter. Then cut a piece of the tubing long enough to make it all the way to the sheathing. Slather the tubing with silicon and insert it into the hole. Finally coat a ledger screw with silicone and screw in whatever you need to mount. The stainless tube will act as a bushing so you do not have to worry about the compressibility of the EIFS. Keep in mind not all houses have sheathing all the way around but it almost always will be there in the corners. In my case the entire house is sheathed.

 

[Dirk]

I still don't get why you think there is a difference with painting wood versus stucco...

My stucco has the color embedded, I don't plan on ever having to paint it. #2, there's generally more prep for wood, you have to much more careful with deep power washing, and it's hard to make pre-repairs and patches blend in. I think I've said twice now that climate would make all the difference with the stucco experience. I get it.

 

[Dirk]

@setsailsoon, I thought of another one that has bugged me for several houses.

There will be wire for the garage door opener. Usually three sets, one for each "safety eye" by the door, and the third for the operator button. (More if you have more than one door.) I find having a button by the garage door itself is very handy, as you can reach in and shut the door without having to do the ol' push'n'run'n'jump maneuver. I have buttons on each side of the roll up door, plus one by the door to the house. I wish I had a fourth, by the door to the back yard. That wire is cheap, run a bunch of it to every garage entrance. In my old house, I had multiple stories, and I ran the garage door wire up to each floor, so I could open/shut the door from inside, and from any floor. I was in on that build, but that was before the internet, or cams or just about anything else we wire up these days. I was so proud of myself for thinking of that garage door wire!! (That's a clue to how long I've had this obsession!!)

My HA system monitors my garage door (open or shut) and that's done with a magnet switch attached to the door. That gets a wire, too, if you ever want to have something like that. That wire would poke out of the wall near one of the upper corners (where the magnet switch is mounted). I forget my garage door all the time, and my house tells me when it's open for longer than 15 minutes.

I'm using the original wire for some of the above, but the later additions use more ethernet cable (of course)...

I got a million of 'em!

 

[setsailsoon]

Got some good responses from DIY over last weeks and I think I have ironed out the pump lift issue. I really have two options, one to relocate the pump to a lower level and second just use a high quality check valve at the suction line from the basin. I'm leaning to the latter so I can keep electric all in one place at the pad. The infinity edge in back seems pretty straightforward so long as the basin is sized properly for the pool. The zero edge on the rest of the pool sides looks like it will work. Below is the section their drawing shows for this. Makes sense to me. Any thoughts from you all? The undisturbed soil required bearing load is the same as the foundation footers and was easy to achieve with my pretty high quality fill.

Chris

 

[JamesW]

I really have two options, one to relocate the pump to a lower level and second just use a high quality check valve at the suction line from the basin.

I would not put the check valve on the suction.

I would put a two-way valve on the suction and two check valves after the suction.

How high will the pump be above the basin?

How many GPM do you want?

How far will the pump be away from the basin?

How many linear feet is the weir wall?

New Construction Started - Willis, TX (north of Houston)

After a year of due diligence and research we finally broke ground. I'm a bit in arrears but here's the progress over the first 4 days: 6/2 - Dig Day 1 6/3 - Dig Day 2 6/4 - Steel (#5 for footing/#3 for footing "wrap-arounds), #4 everywhere else. 8" thick gunite for floor, 6" for footing...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[setsailsoon]

I would not put the check valve on the suction.

I would put a two-way valve on the suction and two check valves after the suction.

How high will the pump be above the basin?

How many GPM do you want?

How far will the pump be away from the basin?

How many linear feet is the weir wall?

New Construction Started - Willis, TX (north of Houston)

After a year of due diligence and research we finally broke ground. I'm a bit in arrears but here's the progress over the first 4 days: 6/2 - Dig Day 1 6/3 - Dig Day 2 6/4 - Steel (#5 for footing/#3 for footing "wrap-arounds), #4 everywhere else. 8" thick gunite for floor, 6" for footing...

www.troublefreepool.com

James,
3D rendering and a couple screen snips are shown below for clarity.

• Just to clarify are you saying the two check valves should be at the basin suction?
• The pump will be about 7' above the basin suction Max flow rate is 81 gpm.
• The negative edge length is 32'. Plan view of pool and plumbing is shown below. All of the remaining walls will be zero edge.
• The pump suction is about 50' from the basin.

Thanks for the reply.
Chris

 

[JamesW]

Just to clarify are you saying the two check valves should be at the basin suction?

I would put 2 check valves at the return.

The pump will be about 7' above the basin suction Max flow rate is 81 gpm.

The negative edge length is 32'.

The pump suction is about 50' from the basin.

For suction, you want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec. For returns, you want to keep the water velocity below 8 ft/sec.

Size.......6 ft/sec......8 ft/sec.
1.5"...........38...............51 gpm
2"..............63...............84 gpm
2.5............90.............119 gpm
3.0".........138............184 gpm
4.0"........238.............317 gpm

I recommend the Intelliflo XF for the infinity edge.

IntelliFloXF® Variable Speed Pool and Spa Pump

The Pentair IntelliFloXF Variable Speed Pool & Spa Inground Pool Pump is an ENERGY Star certified pool pump offering savings for large pools. Learn more.

www.pentair.com

If you have a 32 foot long weir wall, then the amount of flow depends on the height you want to get over the weir.

If we assume 5 GPM per linear foot of weir, that comes to 160 GPM.



If we want 3/8" of lift, that comes to 264 GPM.

At 81 GPM (81/32 = 2.53 gpm per foot), you get only a little bit more than 1/8" and less than 3/16" of lift above the edge, which is weak.

 

[JamesW]

The required NPSH of a water pump at rated capacity is 17 ft.

I would suggest a maximum suction head loss of about 17 feet at sea level and subtract 1 foot per 1,000 feet of elevation.

If you're at sea level, you get 34 feet to start.

Subtracting 17 feet, you have 17 feet to use.

You are using 7 feet for the static lift, which means that you need to keep the dynamic to 10 feet or below.

Elevation.....Maximum suction head loss (Static and Dynamic).

0 feet...........=17
1,000 feet = 16
2,000 feet = 15
3,000 feet = 14
4,000 feet = 13
5,000 feet = 12

20 inches of mercury is 9.8 psi or 22.7 feet of head (Total Suction head loss including static and dynamic).

So the maximum total suction head loss including static and dynamic = 17 to 22.7 feet.

Someone at a high elevation like Alma Colorado would need to significantly derate the suction lift of the pump (8 feet less than at sea level).


You can look up the head loss for the pipe size per 100 feet of pipe at different flows.

The suction can go up to 8 feet per second as long as the head loss is below 10 feet.

If your distance is 50 feet, add another 50 feet for 90s to make the total "effective length" equal to 100 feet.

So, 3" PVC pipe is good to about 175 GPM which is 7.7 feet per second and 6.2 feet of head loss.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/manuals/training/Sta-Rite%20Engineering%20and%20Design%20Manual.pdf/subassets/page47.pdf

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/manuals/training/Sta-Rite%20Engineering%20and%20Design%20Manual.pdf

 

[setsailsoon]

James,

This is great input, thanks so much! The hydraulic calc provided did not consider the weir flow rates. This, plus they were a little more aggressive on suction line velocities will definitely make some changes in pipe size. I plan to submit their stamped design calcs for the permit but will make the design changes before I bid out the work. If I need a letter from the original registered engineer before construction I think that will be pretty easy.

We're now way down the road on the house and my wife is starting to say things like "don't you need to get the pool started?" (That's right where I want her!).

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

09 July Update

Folks,
We've now progressed the house a lot and passed more than half the inspections. Believe it or not I'm still having fun! First week of September still looks good for completion. So attention has focused on getting the pool going. Submitted OB pool application today... yes!

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

My kids’ school is doing this building project that is 4 months behind schedule. My last root canal was more fun than the weekly Monday morning construction update meetings … I’d like to fly you in to start cracking skulls. Please let me know what your daily consult rates are …. Marriot or Hilton hotel accommodations? I’ve been told the hotel pools are fabulous

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

My kids’ school is doing this building project that is 4 months behind schedule. My last root canal was more fun than the weekly Monday morning construction update meetings … I’d like to fly you in to start cracking skulls. Please let me know what your daily consult rates are …. Marriot or Hilton hotel accommodations? I’ve been told the hotel pools are fabulous

4 months behind is record time here in Tucson since COVID. I must be the only person in the entire world that doesn't think a root canal and crown is a big deal. Expensive as all get go but not really that bad.

I stayed three of the ten nights I was in the Midwest (mainly in @jseyfert3 's neck of the woods) in hotels because there were problems with the AC and water heater on the lake house I was working on. And.. my God, were all three pools terrible. Three different big chains... have they no pride at all? (I am miffed that I am not sweeping my pool enough!) All three hot tubs were broken too, in two different states (Wisconsin and Illinois, indoor too)...

 

[setsailsoon]

Aug 2022 Update

Folks,

Finishing the home project is getting harder by the week but we're hanging in there! Here are some of the highlights:

• I indicated we had 3 weeks of float previously and it looks like we're going to use them all. This turned out to be the case so completion will be end of September.
• We learned a little about a new critical path activity. Flooring can't go in whenever I wanted, must have HVAC running first. This is a problem since full electric won't be on 'till late in the month. So I looked into running A/C units on my temp generator. Naturally that's not recommended by the HVAC contractor. So after a lot of scrambling I discovered there's a limited meter inspection I can do that allows connection of only A/C breakers... but there's a little catch (naturally). In my county this requires a coat of paint outside and in - absolutely no idea what one has to do with the other but no time to argue. So change of plans to get inside painting rolling and move up stucco. Felt like I was making the Queen Mary turn about with a rowboat rudder! But got'er done. Stucco finishes this Wed. Exterior paint will be complete enough in a week. Then I apply for an inspection and submit it to the power company. Then get power in a few days. So power on about 7 Sept. and flooring a few days later. This means I have flooring about mid Sept.
• Cabinets are installed and quartz counters will be there about same time as flooring.
• We removed the construction access road and cut the new circular drive and did first pass at grading on front. Removed 3 large dump trucks of fill in this operation.
• Outside activities are going in parallel with all this including:
  • Irrigation
  • Propane tank install and hookup to the house gas plumbing installed previously
  • Landscaping
  • Gutters
  • Final septic inspection (need to see gutters and grass over drain field)
  • Final dress of road

Probably more detail than needed here but I want to make a point. I have a very detailed schedule for this job with logic included. So any change that happens can be easily input to see the impact to critical path of the project and mitigated with additional activities. I haven't found a single builder in our area that uses this project management tool. This is a major reason I'm doing this myself. I'll use the exact same tool for the pool. My first pass on that project indicates the pool should be much quicker after I get a commitment for concrete and plaster. Maybe 6-8 weeks or so. I've gotten a report back from the building department on "conditions" that need to be resolved on my application. Pretty minor as far as I can tell. Things like I need to submit an electrical load list, commit in writing to safety fence and locks on doors that provide access to the pool. All pretty easy to do when I have time and hopefully I'll address in September (in my spare time!).

I hope this and the other updates are helpful/informative.

Chris

View from living room over patio and lake behind the house (before painting)... hopefully this will show the pool soon!


View 2 weeks ago after we got the circular drive cut in and two culverts installed:



I'll put this in the "stuff happens" category (new gas line severed by the driveway contractor. It's been repaired by the gas contractor already... cha-ching!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Interesting tidbit on the AC before flooring issue. Is that a building code regulation or is it the flooring contractors requirement?

 

[kimkats]

The company the cut the line did not have to pay to fix it???

Interesting in hearing more about the paint/floor/ac thing as well.

 

[BigPapaSmurf]

We had a similar issue when we installed hardwood floors in our old house. The flooring had to be in our “conditioned” space for 3 weeks before it could be installed so the flooring could get acclimated to the space. We were told that this would prevent cupping and/or warping after installation. This was for solid wood flooring.