Questions regarding plumbing sprays and solar heating

[bizzle]

We're almost done with re-plumbing my pad but messed up on the sprays.

This is what it used to look like:

This is what it looks like now:

I can already see one issue with the input of my pentair pump. That's 2" pipe so it should have at least a 10" straight run into the inlet according to the manual. It doesn't say anything about the outlet other than don't put a 90 directly out (which is probably what I have looking at that picture). How much straight pipe should I have coming out of the outlet before the 90?

The other error made was on the return side. These three horizontal pipes are (from right to left): spa return (was two separate 2" pipes all the way to the spa but they've been combined into one underground right before coming up to the pad. Was that the correct way to plumb that?), pool return, and sprays.

I didn't consider that I would not have enough pressure to spray water when the spa return is closed. Should I just put a 3 way valve in that straight pipe feeding the spa/pool returns so that I can feed the sprays upstream of them?

The second concern I have is with the SWCG and how I plan on plumbing the solar heating into the system. Here's how the SWCG is plumbed in:

Ideally, it would have been placed on the right side of the loop, but doing that would have turned the cell upside down. It doesn't have any functional problems other than when I go to look at it, it will be upside down and annoy me. I probably won't look at it too often, or maybe even ever, but I think it will bug me over time just knowing it's upside down.

I had planned on cutting the top of the loop off to plumb in the solar heating when I get around to building the support structure (planning on using the solar heating panels as a cover over my equipment area so they'll be mounted above the fence). So my main question is whether the way I have it now will cause problems with the panels or if I should ignore the aesthetic concern of the cell being upside down in order to not have concentrated chlorinated water flowing through my panels. Or have I left enough space (there's probably another foot or two before the top of the fence where the panels will be mounted) that it's not a concern?

 

[mknauss]

The inlet to the pump not having the straight run as described by Pentair is typically not a big deal. If your pump starves for water then you may have to address it, but that is unlikely. The 90 on the outlet is typically also not an issue. See how things run once set up and if you have high pressures or difficulty getting water to your pump it can be discussed.

You want your SWCG to be the last device prior to the water returning to the pool. So after the solar panels.

 

[bizzle]

Thanks for the response. The pump has been running fine for nearly a week so it seems I'll be safe to leave it alone. I only noticed the issue when I was posting the pictures and thought to myself that sure looks short and double checked the manual.

Do you have a suggestion regarding how to redo the sprays? Is my best option to remove the 2 way valve and then put a 3 way valve upstream from the straight pipe feeding the pool/spa returns at a 90 degree angle?

 

[mknauss]

I did not respond on the 'sprays' as not really sure what you are talking about.

If it is some kind of water feature, I would say plan to only run it when needed. So configure to be able to shut off the flow to the pool/spa when you run them.

 

[bizzle]

Sorry for the confusion.

The right side of that 3way valve is my spa return.
The left side of that 3way valve is my pool return.
There is a Tee on top of that pool return that directs flow through a 2way valve which controls the sprays on my pool.

As it's currently plumbed in that picture, I can't use the sprays when I use the spa and the pressure flows through pool return leaving just a trickle for the sprays.

Do I remove the 2way valve (red) and put in a 3way valve (green) and have water flow as the arrow shows?

Or do I replace one of those elbows with a tee and reuse the 2way valve?

 

[Jimrahbe]

b,

I'm with Marty on this one... I have no idea what you are talking about?? Please try again to explain how it was plumbed and what is not working now...

Oh... nice clean up job on the plumbing.. the original plumbing would have drove me crazy....

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[mknauss]

That will work. If you have enough flow you may end up putting a bit flow to the pool while the sprays are on, but will not know that until you have it plumbed. All this is manual control. So you have to go to the pad to make all the adjustments.

Great reason for automation. Would take care of all the valve movement for you.

 

[bizzle]

OK, let's try this to see if it clears things up.
This is what I'm looking at this morning:

Should I use a 3way or 2way valve to feed that spray (it's the lone pipe at the top of the three in the picture). I only got a trickle out of the sprays the way I had it plumbed before.

I have an ET8 but I haven't put the actuators on yet.

 

[Jimrahbe]

b,

I would take out the "Red" two way valve.. This would then mean your Return valve only selects between your Pool and your Spa..

Then I would add a "T" where your Green star is and plumb over to the Sprayer pipe with the old two way valve in between.. This would allow you to turn the sprayers on/off in either the pool mode or the spa mode..

I edited my original post... I would not use a three way at the green star as if put in the wrong position, it will dead head the pump...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

b,

If you are going to automate the valves, then set up the "Return" valve so that it only feeds either the Pool or the Spa and nothing else..

Then add another valve that does nothing but turn the sprayers On/0ff.. you can then automate that valve....

Keep in mind that the ET can only control four valves... Two of them have to be the Intake valve and the Return valve.. If you plan on Solar, that will take a valve.. Leaving you with one to control your Sprayers...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

What is that big, vertical upside-down U? Is that headed for the solar? Then Marty's right, you're going to have to move the SWG. My SWG is horizontal, pretty much laying on the pad. You could move the SWG to the horizontal run heading for your returns. That keeps your SWG after the solar and plenty readable. If you don't like the SWG on the pad, then move the vertical section of pipe that is bringing the horizontal run up to meet your return valve to the right, before the SWG (bringing the level of the SWG to the level of the return valve).

I'm not seeing any check valve. Is there one? Seems like their should be. Can someone weigh in on that? Isn't there supposed to be at least one? So water doesn't move the wrong way through your system, especially the filter? There will certainly be one when you add the solar. My system has three.

Consider a FlowVis flow meter if budget allows. It'll double as a check valve. It's a "luxury" item, for sure, but I found mine invaluable when tweaking the VS pump to deliver the exact flow rate my solar panels need. I also use it to keep an eye on system performance (along with my filter's pressure gauge). I used it to set the VS for pool turnovers as well. But there's a school of thought here at TFP that number of turnovers for filtering is a myth. Either way, the FlowVis is nice to have. When I added check valves for solar, I used the FlowVis and a Jandy. The Jandy body accepts the guts of the FlowVis, so I can move the FlowVis to either location, if the need ever arises. The FlowVis does add a bit more resistance than a check valve (the spring is stronger), so theoretically I could have purchased two Jandy check valves, and just the guts of the FlowVis (they sell it that way), and installed the FlowVis guts into either Jandy just to optimize the VS. Then put the Jandy guts back in to get better flow. But I like having the FlowVis available full time.

 

[bizzle]

b,

I would take out the "Red" two way valve.. This would then mean your Return valve only selects between your Pool and your Spa..

Then I would add a "T" where your Green star is and plumb over to the Sprayer pipe with the old two way valve in between.. This would allow you to turn the sprayers on/off in either the pool mode or the spa mode..

I edited my original post... I would not use a three way at the green star as if put in the wrong position, it will dead head the pump...

Thanks,

Jim R.

If I put a tee where the green star is instead of a 3way valve, how do I make sure to get enough pressure out of the sprayers?

Do I orient the 2way valve so it controls flow to my returns or do I orient it so that it controls flow to my sprayers? (closed valve = no flow to returns or no flow to sprays)

 

[bizzle]

What is that big, vertical upside-down U? Is that headed for the solar? Then Marty's right, you're going to have to move the SWG.

It's intended to head for the solar sometime around next month. Right now I put it that way to make sure I had enough straight runs before and after without having all that pipe laying on my pad and the installation manual recommended a vertical install. The easiest solution will be to simply swap the vertical pipes and leave the SWCG upside down. Since it's automated I don't think I'll be looking at the face often anyway.

The other point is that I don't know where the solar panel inlets are going to be so I may not use that U for solar anyway.

I'm not seeing any check valve. Is there one? Seems like their should be. Can someone weigh in on that? Isn't there supposed to be at least one? So water doesn't move the wrong way through your system, especially the filter? There will certainly be one when you add the solar. My system has three.

I don't have any check valves installed yet. I have one for when I install the solar system. I couldn't really think of any reason to have one anywhere else.

Consider a FlowVis flow meter if budget allows.

Thanks for the information, I'll check it out.

 

[Jimrahbe]

b,

I was assuming that there was enough pressure to run both your Pool returns and Sprayers at the same time.. or the Spa and Sprayers at the same time.. Is this not true?

My idea was just to be able to independently turn the sprayers on/off...

How did it work before your updates???

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

the installation manual recommended a vertical install

Are you referring to the SWG? I'll have to check that out. My contractor installed it horizontal (but he's done several things wrong). I hope it's OK like that.

Yours will be fine upside down if you leave it vertical. But I do look at mine often, for the indicator lights: salt, flow, temp, etc.

 

[mknauss]

Pentair has started to recommend all their SWCG's be installed vertical from the newer manuals I have read. I think it is to reduce the chance of a gas buildup in the unit if a PO does not properly set up the SWCG to be powered off when the pump goes off. Sort of a 'third' fail safe.

If you properly set up your controls so the SWCG is powered off when the pump is and you do not bypass the flow switch, that gives you two fail safes.

 

[Dirk]

I just read elsewhere a concern about the direction of the vertical orientation. Something about the weight of the water on the flow flapper (or maybe the weight of the flapper itself?), that one orientation would need a higher flow rate than the other to compensate. Since the amount of flow required for that flapper is somewhat of a big deal (I'd want to run my VS as low as possible), is the right-side-up/up-side-down issue more involved than just readability? Seems like Pentair would warn about that, but you never know...

 

[mknauss]

I would suspect from a fail safe aspect, you would want the flow up through the flow switch and cell. That way, if the flow switch flapper malfunctioned it would fail open, or no flow, versus if the system installed the other way, it would fail closed, or on. Might be overthinking this as we all do sometimes!!

 

[Jimrahbe]

If I put a tee where the green star is instead of a 3way valve, how do I make sure to get enough pressure out of the sprayers?

Do I orient the 2way valve so it controls flow to my returns or do I orient it so that it controls flow to my sprayers? (closed valve = no flow to returns or no flow to sprays)

B,

Not sure about you, but I have sure got myself confused...

When you say "sprayers" what are we talking about??

Tell us how you want things to operate?

When do you want to sprayers to be on?? Anytime when in the Pool or Spa mode... Just when in the pool mode? Just when in the Spa mode? Just by themselves?

One problem with automation is that you can't just go out and adjust a valve to just what you want.. It is more or less an on/of operation.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[bizzle]

Oh, the one thing I'm sure of is that I'm confused.

OK, the sprayers I am referring to are two pipes that come out of the side of my pool with little spray tips that shoot water out to cool it down. They spray water so I called them sprayers but there is probably a pool term for them Average temperatures here during the summer are between 100-105. I want them to turn on whenever the pool water starts going over 90 degrees or whenever it feels uncomfortable.

Before redoing the plumbing, each of the pool, spa, and spray returns had their own individual ball valves and flow could be regulated by manipulating them.

Now, I had originally thought to myself that I would only run the sprayers in pool mode thinking I'd only want to cool it down when people are swimming. That was how I ended up with a 3 way valve controlling between the pool and spa return but the two way valve on the pool side of the three way valve (it was supposed to be 3way valve to spa return, all poolside return flow off *or* spa return off, poolside return flow with sprayers on/off).

It wasn't until after it was all glued together that I realized I would probably want to run them even if I wasn't in pool mode so the pool could cool down regardless and they would create a pleasant ambiance while sitting in the spa. But even more importantly, I was only getting negligible flow through the two spray holes in the pool. My theory was that when the flow was directed through the 3way valve to the pool return that most of the pressure was going through the pool return and not much was making it past the 2way valve on the other side of the pool return regardless of whether the 2way was open or closed.

Water was trickling out of the spray holes because there was no way to limit flow to the pool returns (the way I had it after redoing all of the plumbing, water had to flow past the pool return, past the 2way valve, in order to get to the spray return pipe).

What I'm trying to figure out is how to regulate flow to the pool and spa returns in order to get more pressure out of those two sprayers:
1. A in the photo. If I set up a Tee with a ball valve that regulates flow to the pool/spa return 3way valve, the sprayers will always be on albeit with more or less pressure depending on how much I open the ball valve.
2. B in the photo. If I set up a Tee with a ball valve that regulates flow to the sprayers (fully closed would result in 100% of the water going to the pool/spa return 3way Jandy), then when I open the ball valve I will have some amount of unregulated flow to the sprayers and some amount of unregulated flow to the returns. I'm concerned I will end up the same way as before with most of the flow going through the returns and a trickle coming out of the sprays.
3. C in the photo. I could just Tee from the filter outlet straight into the sprays.

A, B, or C are supposed to represent the 2way valve's location. The orange is new piping that would connect to a tee in that short run of straight pipe. The arrow is an alternate pipe instead of the orange one.