Identical by Weight, Not in Strength/Price

[Scumgutters]

Hello all, this question(s) I'd like to direct more toward those behind the scenes and "in the industry" but hopefully the answers given will help anybody out who is curious. It concerns two products made by the same company: Let us just call these products "Pink Away" and "Yellow Away" (PA and YA respectively,) manufactured by "Amalgamated Chemistry." I haven't had a chance to ask the sales rep of the company that makes both what the difference is, but I'd like to hear from people whose job doesn't depend on selling both!

Pink "Algae"/Slime is virtually unheard of in my neck of the woods (the Poconos), but we have one life-long customer who insists his pool is overtaken by it every year. He is such a good customer that we ordered a case of PA just for him, the minimum amount we had to order. He only purchased two, two pound containers this past summer, only used up one, so now I have the remaining ten bottles left on the shelf. As a side note, said customer was very happy with the results of PA, so if he is happy, so are we.

My question concerns whether or not if PA could be used in place of YA, for treating mustard algae, if it really came down to it. Before I get a lecture on brushing like a madman plus Mustard Algae SLAM procedure, please note I refer ALL of our residential customers to TFP and Pool School! Its made my job so much easier and more enjoyable, so thank you!

Here is a breakdown of the ingredients listed on the PA bottle:

2 lbs bottle (powder/granule)
Active Ingredient (Sodium Bromide): 88.8%
Inert Ingredients: 11.2%
Total Ingredients: 100.0%

and now YA:

2 lbs bottle (powder/granule)
Active Ingredient (Sodium Bromide): 88.8%
Inert Ingredients: 11.2%
Total Ingredients: 100.0%

2 lbs of PA is good for up to 20,000 gallons, or 1 lbs to 10,000 gallons

5 oz of YA treats up to 10,000 gallons...

YA's front labels claims that it "contains catalysts to improve performance" while PA does not...

Is the catalyst claim just hype, or is this where the difference in effectiveness, and price between Pink Away/Yellow Away actually lies? Is there REALLY, really an actual difference, or just marketing? The contents by weight are exactly the same... What are these magic catalysts? I read a blurb on Amazon that mentioned Yellow Tre, um excuse me, Yellow Away: "Contains Zeos, which will add a sparkle or polish to your pool" That sounds pretty suspect to me.

And if PA is actually is "weaker" than YA, why does PA cost 5$ more on average?
This has been in the back of my mind for months... Your input is appreciated

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Pink Algae is common in pools that use Bacqua products but not chlorine.

As per the PA/YA you write of- Keep in mind that once you add Bromide to a chlorine pool, it becomes a Bromine/Bromide pool and far more difficult and costly to maintain. I would be incredibly angry if a pool store suggested such to me without telling me the pitfall also.

Some of these Yellow/Green Out products also contain ammonia which while useful in very rare situations (when CYA is out the roof yet fresh water not available) so we never recommend them either.

Welcome to TFP, Scumgutters We're happy to have you here.

Maddie

 

[cfherrman]

Welcome!

I stopped reading your post here:

2 lbs bottle (powder/granule)
Active Ingredient (Sodium Bromide): 88.8%

That has cause a lot of people trouble this year alone, the only fix is a complete drain and refill.

Do not sell to clorine pools!

The best fix for any form of algae will always be fc.

 

[Scumgutters]

A few years ago our company maintained a large outdoor pool that finally decided to convert from Bromine to Sodium Hypo, but was NOT drained prior. A CAT controller chemical feed system was installed onsite, and the rate of consumption of the Sodium Hypo was FAR LOWER than chlorine pools of equal to near volume. The bromine residual finally was undetectable just about two weeks before Labor Day, the FC maintained at a solid 3 (thanks to the CAT of course.) There were no issues with alk, cya, pH, nothing! The pool was packed with sleep away campers almost every day of the season, yet it was very clean and well maintained. It took all summer long for the bromine to degrade after weeks of the regeneration cycle, but in that time the water remained sanitized and had LESS of a chlorine demand. Once the bromine was gone, it used more chlorine, or averaged out to that of similar pool. In other words, it cost less for the camp to maintain, the pool looked great, and the customer won in the end. That's our experience, and while certainly respect yours I'd appreciate some peer reviewed research on this topic if anyone could oblige. My employer lives to pontificate on such matters and I'm curious myself

 

[cfherrman]

Just start searching here, I took a break mid season here and im still thinking around 10 people bought some bromine stuff recommend from pool store, had worse problems, and found tfp.

By sodium hypo do you mean sodium hypochlorite? Aka bleach?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

A few years ago our company maintained a large outdoor pool that finally decided to convert from Bromine to Sodium Hypo, but was NOT drained prior. A CAT controller chemical feed system was installed onsite, and the rate of consumption of the Sodium Hypo was FAR LOWER than chlorine pools of equal to near volume. The bromine residual finally was undetectable just about two weeks before Labor Day, the FC maintained at a solid 3 (thanks to the CAT of course.) There were no issues with alk, cya, pH, nothing! The pool was packed with sleep away campers almost every day of the season, yet it was very clean and well maintained. It took all summer long for the bromine to degrade after weeks of the regeneration cycle, but in that time the water remained sanitized and had LESS of a chlorine demand. Once the bromine was gone, it used more chlorine, or averaged out to that of similar pool. In other words, it cost less for the camp to maintain, the pool looked great, and the customer won in the end. That's our experience, and while certainly respect yours I'd appreciate some peer reviewed research on this topic if anyone could oblige. My employer lives to pontificate on such matters and I'm curious myself

How were bromine levels differentiated from chlorine levels? There is no available poolside test kit that can distinguish between chlorine and bromine as the most common indicator dyes (OTO and DPD) are sensitive to ALL halogen oxidizers (chlorine, bromine & iodine) in general and not to any specific one in particular. Was any cyanuric acid (CYA) stabilizer added to the water during the time period in question? Also, how was the pool brominated in the first place - were BCDMH tablets used in an erosion feeder?

You can search TFP using the search box with terms like "bromine" and "daily loss" and you'll find plenty of well written material by Richard Falk (aka, chem geek). Here is a link to a JSPSI paper written by John Wojtowicz on the basics of pool sanitizing systems, both primary and secondary (chlorine, bromine, biquanide, ozone, UV, MPS, UV-peroxide & mineral devices) -

http://www.poolhelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/JSPSI_V4N1_pp09-29.pdf

 

[Scumgutters]

Yes, 12.5% Trade, though in actuality it is closer on average to 14%, direct from Buckman's Chemical.

The Bromides we sell are always sold in conjunction with the inordinate amounts of liquid bleach required for a TFP-style mustard SLAM. I am sad to report that in too many cases the recommended mustard SLAM is not enough, even when highballing the figures... This has happened to people who are pool-savy enough to know they MUST brush, Backwash/Waste-wash and follow the procedure without any shortcuts or second guessing the dosages. In other instances, a high CYA is what got them in this mess to begin with, but they are willing to follow directions to get things under control. Either way, when customers have to make another trip to me and try the super SLAM again, throwing good money out with the bad, they are obviously less than thrilled. I want everyone to enjoy their pool, not yell at me! However, every pool where both bleach and YA were used in conjunction has yet to experience a return of the wall-clinging menace.

Each passing year there are more and more cases of mustard algae in this area. There was a case so severe in late August the water turned a brownish RED, all over the walls of a beautiful gunite pool and attached/plumbed in spa. 65,000 gallons if I recall. The owner was understandably upset, and then more so after I told him what had to be done, based on his water testing results (via LaMotte Water SpinTouch, confirmed by Taylor Reagent testing) and using PoolMath to determine a course of action. Saying he was skeptical is an understatement. It came to 15 gallons of liquid bleach, with an additional "YA" bottle to directly brush into the tenacious crud as a coup de gras. It worked, but I was nervous it wouldn't. I've never have seen mustard algae this bad, or that color red. Disgusting!

 

[Scumgutters]

How were bromine levels differentiated from chlorine levels? There is no available poolside test kit that can distinguish between chlorine and bromine as the most common indicator dyes (OTO and DPD) are sensitive to ALL halogen oxidizers (chlorine, bromine & iodine) in general and not to any specific one in particular. Was any cyanuric acid (CYA) stabilizer added to the water during the time period in question? Also, how was the pool brominated in the first place - were BCDMH tablets used in an erosion feeder?

You can search TFP using the search box with terms like "bromine" and "daily loss" and you'll find plenty of well written material by Richard Falk (aka, chem geek). Here is a link to a JSPSI paper written by John Wojtowicz on the basics of pool sanitizing systems, both primary and secondary (chlorine, bromine, biquanide, ozone, UV, MPS, UV-peroxide & mineral devices) -

http://www.poolhelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/JSPSI_V4N1_pp09-29.pdf

The readings from the ORP probes gave consistent, but very gradually declining rates over the course of the summer. A supplementary TDS probe was onsite as well, and those values gradually decreased, but not substantially. As for stabilizer, the CYA was kept very low, probably around 10-15 ppm, as is typical with most commercial pools we have maintained in the past. There was no stabilizer being used prior, as it was a strictly bromine pool, for whatever reason the camp's mgmt initially thought that was a good idea in an outdoor setting.

I asked my boss about what he remembers about this interesting "no drain conversion" pool, and why his experience seems to contradict the available literature. He recalls being a little leery at first of taking on the pool as a customer, because he was aware of the pitfalls of bromine regen, but after the first month he stopped worrying. That camp went under many moons ago, so I don't have the data sheets anymore. The chlorine demand only shot up at the end of the season, when presumably the last of the bromine was depleted. Even then, it was lower than average to that of very similar bodies of water.