Feeling a bit overwhemed juggiing some frustrating POOL CHEMISTRY on open

Jump to latest Follow Reply
K

KazooTom

0
Jun 4, 2014
15
Portage Michigan
I’m back for some advice from the experienced TFP pool experts. Looking now for a series of "practical steps” to help me get better control over various pool chemistry issues I face upon opening my pool. The traditional sequence of pool opening procedures may or may not be the best steps for a pool owner like me with several factors in-play all at once. Interested in your suggestions/opinions. I need to feel reassured about what to do when -- and in what order.

My related post (2014): STARTUP is a bigger and bigger challenge with each new season -- any ideas why? Still available for reading in TFP FORUM.

The pool chemistry problems I’m juggling this Spring:

No CYA when pool is first measured in spring – happened last 4 yrs.

Evidence of ammonia residue – CC high – rapid loss of FC. Suspect bacteria.

When first uncovered my pool had a “slightly green” hue but clear. This turned into a full algae bloom
requiring a week or longer to kill & clear.

High amounts of iron and calcium in local city water (need dose of sequestrant)

PH (+) and ALK (-) needed adjustment too.

VERY High Phosphate levels (3000+) – 1st time this year in 30yrs.

My pool person with years of experience and lots of industry training, wants me to follow these steps to OPEN. I should do nothing at first after opening except to circulate the water for 24-48hrs. Then take readings. Next add a dose of metal sequestrant and wait 48-72hrs. Next add a POLY algecide adjust PH/ALK. Use a PHOS remover (necessary this yr) which requires another 48hrs. Finally introduce liquid chlorine (10%) or dissolved Cal Hypo. By the time I got around to the chlorine shock addition, however, I had a full outbreak of algae. CYA needs to be added sometime too to raise it 30-50ppb – but supposedly only after the algae is killed and filtered. I suspect it is not the BEST sequence to follow for my situation. Like to avoid the algae bloom and try to clean up the bacteria debris earlier. Just not sure what to do when all these are in play.

When it comes to CLOSING, I’ve assembled several suggestions from various on-line sources they say are likely to improve my odds for an easier opening. Do these make sense?

Lower CYA levels by drain/refill to 60ppb or lower. Anything higher will make getting rid of CYA debris from the bacteria eating the CYA over winter. The more CYA the bacteria has to eat the more debris to clean-up with tons of chlorine.

Wait until late Fall to close – water below 60-degrees. One said early Nov but there would be tons of leaves in my pool unless I run the pool covered.

Shock pool and wait a little for levels to come down some. Add “heavy” dose of Poly 60 algecide. Add a full dose of metal sequestrant.

Dissolve cal-hypo shock in warm water and pour into pool 2-3 times – weather permitting.

Use a pool pillow to keep cover off of water surface – also allow escape opening of some kind for ammonia gasses?

Open EARLY in spring – maybe late March/ early April. Water is usually still very cold.


Appreciate any feedback you can send my way.

Tom
 
I'd say you can ignore all that divergent advice and just use Trouble Free Pool Care (TFPC). The system doesn't mix with traditional industry or Pool $tore advice, and will get the job done and leave you without headaches. You'll be able to avoid all the pool $tore potions and do it all with low-cost chemicals.

First things first, are you using a TF-100 or K-2006 test kit? If not, it will be hard to cure what ails ya. These include a FAS-DPD free chlorine (FC) test, a combined chlorine (CC) test and a CYA test, which you need for effective pool water chemistry maintenance.

You would start by getting as much solid debris out of the pool as possible, top up the water and get the circulation running. About 30 minutes later, test pH and adjust it to 7.2 with muriatic acid. Set your pump to run 24/7 and backwash your filter whenever pressure rises 25% above your clean pressure.

Did you do your own testing to determine 0 ppm CYA? If so, it's possible that CYA is being consumed by bacteria, or it may just have been diluted enough over winter to read zero. To find out, about 30 minutes after you reduced your pH, you'll raise FC to 10 ppm and then measure FC and CC 15 minutes later. Keep testing and topping up FC every 15 to 30 minutes to maintain 10 ppm FC. If it takes multiple attempts and you see a lot of CC, then CYA-eating bacteria has been converting CYA to ammonia. When 10 ppm FC holds, then you'll add enough CYA to get to 30 ppm CYA. Getting to this point takes less than a day.

Now you can start a SLAM and kill off all the algae in the water. For CYA at 30 ppm, you'll be using 12 ppm FC until completion of the SLAM. Here is the procedure, and be sure to read the written article which has the TFPC instructions, including the links in the article. There is also a video which provides a visual example. You'll need to follow the written instructions to the letter, so it's a good idea to print it out so it's handy. Pool School - SLAM - Shock Level And Maintain

After the SLAM has rid the pool of algae, we can revisit metals and staining, and the rest of the chemistry can be balanced, but the first step either way is the SLAM.

There's a thread linked in my signature that I learned a lot from when I started out: TFPC for beginners.

You'll love the sparkling clean and safe water!
 
Thanks needsajet for your quick and detailed reply.

I'm a long time "fan" of TFP -- and have been handling my pool chemistry myself for about 24yrs. For most of those years, I've often had a light green algae cast to my otherwise clear water when I opened. I also have used for years the Taylor Test Kit K-2006 for water testing. I am also very familiar with the TFP method -- have done a number of SLAM (s) procedures over the years to deal with a "lockup", etc. In the past 4yrs,however, I've been dealing each year with a complete CYA loss over the winter producing plenty of ammonia by-products in spring. I've self-educated myself on the the topic of the complete "loss of CYA" over the winter.

So I guess I'd classify myself more as a "increasingly frustrated and overwhelmed" OLDIE rather than a NEWBIE.

My goal here was to see if I could get some advice on ways to shorten the start-up time by doing things in the Spring in a "more effective order". My Pool Guy had a sequence which let the ALGAE bloom get out of hand. A new factor in my mix this Spring was that I CLOSED last Fall with way too much CYA in my pool. (111ppb) -- It seems that I should have dealt with this throughout last summer with a couple 25% drains/refills to keep CYA at 70ppb or lower. The bacteria's activity on this unusually high level of CYA, produced more than usual ammonia debris which required more chlorine to remove. It came to 24gal of 10% liquid chlorine to deal with it and the algae. This carelessness added to my frustration when I opened. One pool expert talking about it on-line cautioned those of us dealing with the CYA bacteria to be very cautious. Need to keep CYA under 70ppb at closing for a easier opening the next year.

Thanks for your advice telling me to deal with the ALGAE (and CYA debris) first with liquid chlorine -- leave the other things for later. I felt that way too -- but my Pool Guy seemed to put it down further on his list.
 
Wow, talk about over complicating things .......

The best thing you can do to reduce the chance of algae at startup is to close cold/open cold, and by cold I mean at about 50F.

While nobody can predict when bacteria will infiltrate and convert CYA to ammonia, closing an algae free pool that is in the 50F's is your best defense.

If you try to mix traditional pool methods with TFP methods you will end up frustrated and disappointed.

BTW- CYA is measured in parts per million (ppm).
 
I'm a long time "fan" of TFP -- and have been handling my pool chemistry myself for about 24yrs
Click to expand...
Yeah, but what needsajet is saying is you need to get away from the advice you are taking if you want to use what we teach. the two don't mix. For example phosphates are a non-issue. we don't test for them. Algaecide is not very helpful in clearing your pool.....chlorine is.

Give some thought to testing your own water and learning how to manage the pool yourself without anyone's advice (you won't need us after a few months, probably). We teach understanding, Not "do what we say" You will never look back if you decide to do your own testing and begin the learning.....it's eye opening.
 
I don't think you will find any of us here advocating a mixture of "potions" to try to avoid the algae. Wile you have been around for a long time you are still listening to the traditional pool care folks and it is confusing you.

Two things you talk about are inconsequential or bunk and there phosphate levels and "chlorine lock".

Chlorine lock doesn't exist. Chlorine oxidizes organics in the water and is consumed in the process. As you have identified your chlorine is being consumed removing ammonia from your water.

Ignore phosphates. It is just a made up problem to allow sales of a useless product. I really don't care if my Phos levels are 50 or 5000. It doesn't affect my pool as long as I keep sufficient chlorine in the water.

So, how do you chlorinate your pool that the CYA got to 111 (this has to be a pool store number, your K2006 will not provide this number). In your climate I would probably not recomend a CYA over 40.

As to your closing, yes - the later the better. If you can consistantly close after the water is below 60 (50 would be never better) you retard the ability of alga to reproduce. Yes, even running it with the cover on so you can keep chlorine at the proper level for the amount of CYA in the water. When you reach the point of shutting it down a dose of sequestrant and Polyquat60 can't hurt. I have no idea what the thought process is with the CalHypo it's just a different form of chlorine that also adds calcium your vinyl pool doesn't need.

Now, in the spring - open early. You want to open with cold water. The warmer the water the more possibility of things growing in the water.

Once the water is circulating adjust the pH (7.2) and TA (60-70) and add your sequesterant. No Polyquat in the spring. If the pool is clear, immediately bring the FC up to the level for your CYA ([FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] ). Conduct an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test the first night.

If the water is green at all or you see any algae immediately begin a SLAM Process , don't wait.
 
Thanks to all of you who've responded with your thoughts and expertise. You make some good points and I will spend some time digesting them. I guess I will have to learn to IGNORE local pool store advice and keep to the TFP program only.

I know that TFP experts say to ignore "phosphates" which I have always done before -- but also never had a reading in the 4K-5K range before this year. They have always been 0. This was a huge unexpected increase. Nothing really explains it except perhaps the possible breakdown of a metal sequestrant used to remove iron stains.

I have treated ALGAE blooms before -- understand that process. Never had a problem except for the long wait for my sand filter to clear the water.

I was told however, that metal sequestrant had to be added BEFORE adding anything else when chlorine levels were very low. Not good to add after chlorine levels are at shock levels. Most need 48rs to be fully incorporated into the water.

I will also watch more closely the pool water closing temperature -- will try to get closer to 50-degrees. It's a balancing act between water temp and need to have pool covered to keep fall leaves out.

FYI -- Here are my pool water analysis results for last Fall and this Spring: (computer water analysis) After 25gal of 10% liquid chlorine pool is clear today. Will shock with Dichlor -- to get CYA back into the water later today.

Fall 9/27/16

FC 2.03 ppm
Ttl Chlorine: 2.23 ppm
Combined Chlorine: 0.2 ppm
PH 8.1
Hardness: 240 ppm (vinyl pool)
ALK (w/ stabilizer correction): 99 ppm
CYA: 117 ppm
Copper: 0 ppm
Iron: 0.1 ppm
Phosphate: 0 ppb


Spring 5/18/17

FC 0.17 ppm
Ttl Chlorine: 0.17 ppm
Combined Chlorine: 0 ppm
PH 7.9
Hardness: 133 ppm (vinyl pool)
ALK (w/stabilizer correction: 188 ppm
CYA: 1 ppm
Copper: 0 ppm
Iron: 0.1 ppm
Phosphate: 4713 ppb
 
Hi back domct203:

Yes that's what I'm reporting. All last summer I had pool store analysis reports done via computer show "zero" phosphates.

The three done this spring show 4713 ppb . . . 5193 ppb . . . and latest OVR 5093 ppb. That's "parts per billion" In city location -- no runoff into pool -- stones and concrete encircle pool. Two possible sources could be new higher levels of chloramines in City Water and/or breakdown of Stain-X sequestrant which apparently can occur with some types. Otherwise I don't have a clue.
 
Wow, that's quite an increase over the off season!

I don't have any experience with sequestrant, I guess that seems plausible.

Did you have the lawn fertilized this spring? If so, any chance that could have gotten in the pool?
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Tom, sorry if I said anything that ticked you off. It was not intended.My bad.

So ya gonna go TFP all the way? If so, great :) No one here is going to trust numbers like CYA 117 or TA 188. Those could be 40 and 100 for all we know. Not because we're full of ourselves, but because even perfectly calibrated equipment at the pool store is not capable of producing that level of accuracy. 120 and 190 at best. And their chance of using their equipment correctly is very low, based on decades of experience.

The great news is repeated tests of metals low enough to be a non-issue. Under TFPC we can't justify $-wise owning metals tests, so we do fall back to the pool store for those, sometimes suggesting people take their water to multiple shops.

Hope you reset and go TFPC.
 
Needsajet:

Took no offense. You were right to say I was blending Pool Store info with TFP Site and other on-line resources. That needed to be pointed out to me. The multiple factors in play --algae, no CYA, No FC, metal reading -- got to me this Spring. Learn a lot f rom all who took time to help me out. Not able yet to go only TFP. BUT I am more conviced than ever.

Plan to combine many of your suggestions and report a summary here. May post a few links to CYA BACTERIA as well.

Thanks everyone
I
 
KazooTom said:
May post a few links to CYA BACTERIA as well.
Click to expand...
Please don't think we are finding the bacteria story hard to believe, we do. Anumber of folks show up here every year with similar stories. Heck, a company has even said they have isolated the bacteria and sell it as a CYA reducer (with poor results from reviewers here).

As to your pool care methods, to quote Dave, Site Owner of TFP:
Throughout TFP, you will read that we suggest certain levels that good science and practical experience has taught us fall within safe ranges.

Further reading of posts here will draw you to the inescapable conclusion that these guidelines work.......in thousands and thousands of pools worldwide.

You may or may not choose to use these methods and guidelines or you may use some and not others. Our goal is to teach you what has been proven time and time again and then let you use that information to your benefit.
Click to expand...

It's your pool and you decide how you want to maintain it. Our common refrain is that mixing our advice and advice from pool stores is generally destined for failure, but you may be the exception.

We wish you luck and welcome you back at any time with more questions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply