18 Years with a Pool and Just Now Finding TFP!

Jan 21, 2017
10
AUSTIN-WilCo-TX
Howdy from the bipolar weather capital of the US! (70 deg. F on Jan 21)

Having broken the ice (hopefully) with my sig line, I'd like to talk a little about my reality and perhaps a little about my goals moving forward with this venerable pool... it has served my family dutifully, especially when my 2 girls were little. Now that I'm down to one at home (almost 19 and in school) and both my wife and I aren't at home enough to give the pool the attention it used to get (she's now a realtor and I'm now a road warrior, since the kids are grown) I seem to have to fight the worst that my environmental conditions throw at me.

For starters... the pool now spends most of the day in full shade, as there is an unbroken line of hackberry / ligustrum / chinaberry trees on the western property line. Even in a Central TX summer, the pool can feel a tad chilly after 1PM! Clear water conditions during the summer can be maintained pretty well with a nominal (some might say minimal) amount of effort; CH shock, granular and pucks are what I have used, and have been mostly successful since the 2015 re-plastering. Occasionally the ligustrum will drop its glossy leaves in the pool, but they are usually pretty buoyant and whatever the skimmer doesn't get, a quick leaf raking does.

Challenge #1 is this particular time of year, when the hackberry drops its leaves... they are numerous and overwhelm the skimmer, so many of them sink. The cleaner bag becomes completely stuffed in no time, and typically there's no one around to make sure it gets emptied and returned to effective service. I'm out of town most of the week and it would take an act of Congress to get the wife or the youngest to do any pool maintenance, so I end up with a murky soup of dissolved organics. Clarifier solution is not up to the task when it gets this bad, so ultimately I'm probably draining down to the lower bowl (5.5 Ft level) and refilling... UNLESS- those of you who have had cartridge filters for longer than I have (I had sand up to this past year) can advise that cleaning the cartridges regularly (every week or so?) will help prevent drain/re-fill). Also, where proactive measures are concerned: I'm thinking about having a tree service top out the ligustrum to about 12 ft. (they are currently 40-50 ft), to return it to the shrub level they presumably were when initially planted. Ditto for the hackberry (whatever hangs over our property, it's the neighbor's tree) and chinaberry. Do I need to assume that I'll need to pay more attention to chlorine levels if I'm bringing more sunlight into the pool area during the hottest part of the day during the summer in Central TX?

Challenge #2 is my CYA problem. Pucks have been convenient, but I'd really like to maintain CYA at or below lock levels for the chlorine. If I were to eliminate pucks altogether, what would be an effective maintenance routine to keep the green monster away?

Challenge #3 - the cartridge filter paradigm shift. Once I learned there was no backwash cycle for cartridges, the honeymoon was largely over... even with my mother-in-law's DE filter, it was an infrequent occurrence to have to pop the canister open and clean out the baffles. With the cartridges, I had better plan on a monthly bath. Since LPS seems intent on opening a vein in my arm when it sells me its cartridge cleaner concentrate, I'd like to know if anyone has tested a cleaning solution beyond dishwashing detergent or TSP? How about a gallon jug of Simple Green or some comparable degreaser sold at the big box home fix-it stores, dissolved into 20 gal water in a plastic trashcan?

I realize I'm all over the place here, and it's my first post, but I gotta get a handle on expenses and the pool is my best place to start. Thanks in advance for your input/advice.
 
Welcome :wave:

Your title says it all and we're happy you found this site. We teach a DIY approach to pool care that is far different from what you'll hear in the pool stores and what service companies will perform. With that said, you're going to have to be patient with the TFPC Method of pool care because you are going to have to "un-learn" much of what you were led to believe is true about pools.

Some things jump out at me from your great initial post. For one, we never teach the use of flocs or clarifiers here as they are simply unnecessary for pool care. There are certainly situations where a floc or clarifier CAN be used, but they are almost never necessary and, by the methods we teach, you would never have to use one. Also, we don't use the term "chlorine lock" because it's erroneous to describe what is happening that way. It is a pool store/pool service term with no grounding in the actual chemistry of cyanuric acid and chlorine. The chlorine is not locked up anywhere, it is simply being buffered by the CYA such that the active chlorine levels are so low that reaction rates seem non-exitent. They are still happening, I assure you, they are just too slow to be measurable or effective. So, while it may seem like nothing more than semantics, we do not use that term because it confuses what we teach with what the "pool professionals" believe. Here is a link you might find interesting -

Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught

Yes, CYA is your problem and the best way for it not to be a problem is to not overuse it. Your pool needs anywhere from 50-80ppm CYA, that's it. Every trichlor puck you use and dichlor shock powder the pool store sells you contains CYA. If you follow their treatment methodology, a pool will easily be over 100ppm CYA in less than a season. The solution - bleach. Plain old, unscented 8.25% liquid chlorine (also known as Clorox). You get FC with no CYA.

Definitely get an arborist to look at your trees. I did and I removed a mesquite tree near my pool. Best thing I ever did. While I did lose some shade, my pool has almost no debris load and mesquites are terrible when it comes to debris. Also, it sounds like your cartridge filter might be a bit undersized for your pool. Monthly cleaning of the cartridges is not really where you want to be. Lowering the debris load might help a bit but it sounds like your filter is getting filled too quickly. I have a very oversized DE filter and I only have to tear it down twice per year (I don't backwash, it's pointless). Also, we do not advocate the use of "cartridge cleaners", they are a waste of money. TSP/bleach followed by muriatic acid dip is all you need.

As for how to care for the pool while you're gone - you need to automate the liquid chlorine dosing (this is why salt water chlorine generators are great and why I would never own a pool without one). Looking the automation thread at Stenner pumps. You can setup a 15 gallon tank of bleach and then automate dosing using a Stenner pump. That way, while you're away, your pool can stay properly chlorinated. As for cleaning, well, someone has to step up to the plate while you're gone. I suggest bribery with shopping trips to the mall (because you'll save so much money using TFP...) or the withholding of allowances/credit card use if the young one doesn't comply....sorry, it's age old problem with not many solutions.....

Good luck to you!

Please have a read thru
 
Hello, JN- great to get a welcome from the land of my birth! :whoot:Didn't have our own pool growing up but belonged to Catalina Terrace SC and swam competitively from ages 10-17 (Summer League Champs many years running, yada yada...). After growing up and moving to TX it didn't seem much of a stretch to become a pool owner; probably would not have one put in, but it came with the house- worked for us :cool:. The lil' kidney ain't much for lap work but it has cooled me down (and cleaned me :p) on many a summer day after sweaty yard work. (the humidity at plus-100F took some getting used to...)

Welcome :wave:



Yes, CYA is your problem and the best way for it not to be a problem is to not overuse it. Your pool needs anywhere from 50-80ppm CYA, that's it. Every trichlor puck you use and dichlor shock powder the pool store sells you contains CYA. If you follow their treatment methodology, a pool will easily be over 100ppm CYA in less than a season. The solution - bleach. Plain old, unscented 8.25% liquid chlorine (also known as Clorox). You get FC with no CYA.

OK so... granted, I'm measuring with strips but it does appear that CYA is up over 150ppm. Is there a calculation I can apply to figure out how much water to dump/refill at 15.3K gallons capacity to get it down to 50ppm, or do you have a ballpark estimate I can apply?

Definitely get an arborist to look at your trees. I did and I removed a mesquite tree near my pool. Best thing I ever did. While I did lose some shade, my pool has almost no debris load and mesquites are terrible when it comes to debris. Also, it sounds like your cartridge filter might be a bit undersized for your pool. Monthly cleaning of the cartridges is not really where you want to be. Lowering the debris load might help a bit but it sounds like your filter is getting filled too quickly. I have a very oversized DE filter and I only have to tear it down twice per year (I don't backwash, it's pointless). Also, we do not advocate the use of "cartridge cleaners", they are a waste of money. TSP/bleach followed by muriatic acid dip is all you need.

I tried to overestimate the surface capacity of the filter when I bought it- it should be good for 20K gal. I cannot exaggerate the amount of leaf/yard debris that ends up in the pool- if I go even a week without scooping the bottom during the winter leaf drop, there will be large areas of the bottom that are covered with leaves. I know that TSP is a popular choice here, but do you have any thoughts on a degreaser/detergent product like Simple Green? Again, I want to ensure I go with the most economical choice.

As for how to care for the pool while you're gone - you need to automate the liquid chlorine dosing (this is why salt water chlorine generators are great and why I would never own a pool without one). Looking the automation thread at Stenner pumps. You can setup a 15 gallon tank of bleach and then automate dosing using a Stenner pump. That way, while you're away, your pool can stay properly chlorinated. As for cleaning, well, someone has to step up to the plate while you're gone. I suggest bribery with shopping trips to the mall (because you'll save so much money using TFP...) or the withholding of allowances/credit card use if the young one doesn't comply....sorry, it's age old problem with not many solutions.....

OK so I have a feeling my wife will have to have a LOT more closings per month for us to afford an automated solution. Assuming we do it manually, at least for starters, what quantity of liquid bleach would you suggest per treatment, and at what interval?

Thanks for the warm welcome, clarification and starter advice- I'm looking forward to doing this right (and for less $$$), finally!
 
HI! You are going to love TFP and your wallet will be heavier at least as far as pool costs go LOL

Here is a link for you:

TFPC for Beginners

Here is another link for you to give you an idea of what your pool needs:

Pool School - Basic Pool Care Schedule

I agree with Matt about working on the trees. It can only make your life easier in the long run.

Now for the filter-is there any chance you still have the sand filter? It really does sound like your current filter is too small. We will see what we come up with once we work our way through getting your pool balanced.

Next you need to find a way to get the leaves out of the pool so you do not make leaf soup. You are on the road so that leaves it to your wife and daughter or paying someone. I will leave it up to you how you handle it and wish you luck :/

I think a SWG will work great for you. Here is a link:

Pool School - Salt Water Chlorine Generators

Kim:kim:
 
What kind of pump do you have on the pool? Can you post a picture of your equipment pad? How far is the equipment from the pool and how high is the equipment above the water line? What size plumbing lines do you have? Post as much detail as you can and we'll see if our hydraulics expert can check how well matched your pump is to your pool and filter.

As for automation, Stenner pump automation is not as expensive as you might think. I think the tank, pump, associated tubing and a mechanical timer will run you somewhere around $500-$750. Check out the automation section on Stenner pumps, they are a fairly cheap and easy solution. As I said, I love my saltwater chlorine generator but salt is not for everyone and so Stenner pumps are a good alternative.

To go from 150ppm CYA to 50ppm, you'd need to drain 2/3rd of the pool volume. If the water table is high in your area, then be careful as you could pop the pool out of the ground. We always warn that you need at least 12" of water in the shallow end to be safe. If you have to do incremental drains, it will take longer and use more water.

Check out our Pool Math webpage for doing all useful chemical calculations.

You can certainly try to use a cleaner like Simple Green or some other form of degreaser, I'm just not sure how well it will rinse off or how effective it will be. TSP is what I use but I only use it once every other year or so as my filter elements are pretty clean most of the time. For most tear downs, I just have to hose off the elements and go. I'm probably overdue for a TSP clean and then acid dip just to make sure they're not crusted with any calcium.

Best investment you can make in your pool is to get your own drop-based reagent test kit and we recommend only two (Taylor K-2006 or the TF-100), the rest are either inadequate or down-right useless. Once you know how to properly test your water and how the chemicals interact and work in your pool water, care of the pool becomes very simple. I spend less than a few hundred dollars per year on my pool, including utility costs.
 
Hello Kim!
So far I'm digging the whole TFP vibe, and saving money... well, I wish I were as brilliant as the Indians to have invented the zero because that's what I want to pay! :joker:

As to the sand filter... I replaced it once with what I thought was a like unit but - get this - it explosively split its side out within a year! (thank you, "made in China" ... Jimmy Fallon ;)) Before the old one wore out, I was never really happy with the results; even when the weather was warm and calm, there always seemed to be a fair concentration of 'floaties' coming out of the jets. I wanted something comparable to DE results but without the mess and cost, so I went cartridge. Again, I re-emphasize that I deal with a lot of organic windfall; the area around the pool is landscaped with plants that produce a lot of detritus in addition to the trees, so I am probably just gonna have to eat it when it comes to cleaning the cartridges more frequently than most. For the record- I replaced my mother-in-law's old worn-out DE filter on her 30K gal pool with the same cartridge unit I bought, and she doesn't have the same problems I do. I'm all in on trying to get the trees under control; she had both chinaberry and mountain juniper dumping gunk in her pool for years until her fix-it guy took both overhanging trees out, and the results speak for themselves.

Thanks a ton for the links, they should def. come in handy. Cheers!
 
What kind of pump do you have on the pool? Can you post a picture of your equipment pad? How far is the equipment from the pool and how high is the equipment above the water line? What size plumbing lines do you have? Post as much detail as you can and we'll see if our hydraulics expert can check how well matched your pump is to your pool and filter.
View attachment 56548Here's the pad (right now it's upside down- formatting?); approx. 30 ft from the pool, estimating the negative gradient it's about 12 inches above the waterline. Plumbing lines are 1.5" ID.

On the topic of hydraulics- while I don't wish to shut down discussion, I would need to have had this conversation closer to when we moved in than where we are, current day; we may be out of here in the next couple years and I'll never recoup the kind of sunk cost associated with a comprehensive rip/replace of pool plumbing lines. Keep in mind the pool was built in 1975 and my fear is that such a significant engineering endeavor could result in an unexpected, and exponential, increase in initial cost estimate.

I appreciate the testing kit recommendations- that kind of cost I can probably absorb!
 
Try using a free photo hosting service like Photobucket to upload your pictures and then just cut & paste the IMG code into a post to get a picture. Only paid supporters of TFP get any kind of useful attachment space for pictures.

- - - Updated - - -

And no worries about asking the hydraulics question, we're not going to make you tear up your pool. It is what it is and I just wanted his input on whether or not your filter may be undersized relative to your pool and plumbing. We'll help you work with what you have...
 
I think what Matt was talking about was making sure your pump and filter are a good match to each other and to your size pool more that worrying about the pipes. (Matt am I correct?)

The picture posting upside down :/ we have no idea why some of them do that but we are used to standing on our heads to look at them by now.

What pump do you have? model and brand please.

The test kit will save you SO much money in the end! Before I had my own test kit I spent about $75 a (weekly) trip to the Pool $tore and my pool was out of control. Once I got the test kit...........I spend about $25 every 2 weeks in the summer for chlorine! AND my pool looks like a jewel!!!

Kim:kim:
 

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Lining your skimmer baskets with hairnets can cut the load on your filter. But they do need to be changed regularly. I cut my need to clean my filter from every couple months down to twice a year by simply using disposable hairnets in my skimmers and knee high nylons in my leaf cannister.

See post #172 below
Tips and Tricks - Page 9
 
A 320 sq-ft filter should be plenty big for a 15k pool. I have a 400 sq-ft filter on a 20k pool and only clean it once a year even though there is little pressure rise.

How often are you cleaning the filter?

What is the clean filter pressure and what is the filter pressure when you decide to clean it?
 
A 320 sq-ft filter should be plenty big for a 15k pool. I have a 400 sq-ft filter on a 20k pool and only clean it once a year even though there is little pressure rise.

How often are you cleaning the filter?

What is the clean filter pressure and what is the filter pressure when you decide to clean it?

There is an instructional "CLEAN" mark at indicated 30 psi on the gauge. When I soaked the cartridges in the expensive LPS concentrate last weekend, rinsed and reinstalled, initial pressure was 10-12 psi without the cleaner attached; with cleaner attached it jumps up to 20 psi. Within a day, the needle sat at the "CLEAN" mark- that's the story on my pool right now. I clean out all baskets, as well as the tiny inline screen thimble which sits inside the cleaner attach point.

Suffice to say, I lack both the time and energy (in that order) to clean out the cartridges after a day's use, day after day. And in my case, I would probably need to soak them each time to get the results I'm looking for. The fireman's nozzle is doing a decent job of rinsing them down but again... time and effort often conspire against me when there's other wood to chop around the house. I'm willing to try some of the methods recommended to aid the filtering process (i.e. pantyhose/stockings over the skimmer and filter basket); switching those out daily may be less of an endeavor. Can someone share with me how effective that method has been per personal experience?
 
There is an instructional "CLEAN" mark at indicated 30 psi on the gauge. When I soaked the cartridges in the expensive LPS concentrate last weekend, rinsed and reinstalled, initial pressure was 10-12 psi without the cleaner attached; with cleaner attached it jumps up to 20 psi. Within a day, the needle sat at the "CLEAN" mark- that's the story on my pool right now. I clean out all baskets, as well as the tiny inline screen thimble which sits inside the cleaner attach point.

Suffice to say, I lack both the time and energy (in that order) to clean out the cartridges after a day's use, day after day. And in my case, I would probably need to soak them each time to get the results I'm looking for. The fireman's nozzle is doing a decent job of rinsing them down but again... time and effort often conspire against me when there's other wood to chop around the house. I'm willing to try some of the methods recommended to aid the filtering process (i.e. pantyhose/stockings over the skimmer and filter basket); switching those out daily may be less of an endeavor. Can someone share with me how effective that method has been per personal experience?

Something is definitely wrong then. You should not be getting a pressure rise of over 20psi in a single day unless your water has a constant nascent algae bloom. We typically see pressure rises like that when people who own cartridge or DE filters get a green swamp and then try to SLAM their pools. The killing off the algae causes a huge debris load into the filter which requires almost daily cleaning of the filter until all of the algae is killed and removed.

In a clean swimming pool, what you are seeing should not happen. So I have to ask the question - is your pool clean and clear with no algae present? One thing to do is an overnight chlorine loss test (OCLT - Pool School - Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT)) to see if there is something in your water consuming chlorine since a clean and clear pool will lose virtually no chlorine when the sun goes down. However, in order to perform that test reliably requires getting a good test kit. Chemical "Guess"-strips won't work which leads me to my previous point that the only we can help you help the pool is to invest in a good test kit. Otherwise, we're all just flying blind...
 
Something is definitely wrong then. You should not be getting a pressure rise of over 20psi in a single day unless your water has a constant nascent algae bloom. We typically see pressure rises like that when people who own cartridge or DE filters get a green swamp and then try to SLAM their pools. The killing off the algae causes a huge debris load into the filter which requires almost daily cleaning of the filter until all of the algae is killed and removed.

In a clean swimming pool, what you are seeing should not happen. So I have to ask the question - is your pool clean and clear with no algae present? One thing to do is an overnight chlorine loss test (OCLT - Pool School - Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT)) to see if there is something in your water consuming chlorine since a clean and clear pool will lose virtually no chlorine when the sun goes down. However, in order to perform that test reliably requires getting a good test kit. Chemical "Guess"-strips won't work which leads me to my previous point that the only we can help you help the pool is to invest in a good test kit. Otherwise, we're all just flying blind...

From the "Picture is worth a 1000 words" file...





I had just skimmed the pool on a particularly windy day, on my way out of town, and you can still see gunk floating around... ligustrum leaves, cedar (juniper pollen), even some oleander that got tagged by an especially nasty early freeze. It is a massive paradigm shift to go from managing a pool west of the 'Dry Line', roughly defined as west of the Pecos River, to all points east, with all the wet-weather landscape biomass (and escaped landscaping foilage growing wherever it's not wanted) depositing itself in your pool on days like today. I have been treating with 2 lbs of granularized dichlor every 2 days, and will until I run out of it.

So... is there something seriously wrong here (rhetorically)? I've been fighting this battle for 18 years... I'll have a real testing kit by Wednesday when I'm back in town.
 
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Wow....that pool needs help and the dichlor you're dumping in it is not doing you any good. In fact, it is making the problem worse.

You'll have to decide if you're going to be all-in with the TFPC Method of pool care. If so, you might as well just stop adding anything to the pool but a gallon of bleach every day until your test kit gets to you. Then, you'e going to need to set aside SEVERAL DAYS (read: more than a weekend and no distractions) to get that pool back to clear. Because you have a cartridge filter, it's going to be a royal PITA to clear that pool because the filter is going to clog like crazy from all the algae you have and so it will require baby-sitting it.

Look, I know you think and believe that the tree's are your enemy, but I can assure they are not (although I do think you will benefit from having them all pruned back). While trees can produce a lot of debris load and eat up chlorine, the source of your green pool is inconsistent chemical management. That's not to say that I'm trying to blame you or anything, but pools only stay crystal clear and clean when they are managed daily...yes, daily. I know you have struggles with time and family not being on your side here but a pool that is managed everyday is a pool that will stay clean and clear. And here's the truth - most of us here don't spend more than 10-15mins on our pools everyday. Those of us with automated chlorine sources probably don't spend more than 5mins a day and 30mins on the weekend. I know I don't.....and guess what? In the past 4 years, my pool has never, repeat never had an algae bloom. My pool has always been clean and clear. My kids have swan in the pool whenever they want (and I have four little children). No one has ever complained of eye's burning, or "chlorine smell" or itchy skin or anything like that. And I'm not alone, most others here will tell you the exact same thing.

Let us know how much you want us to help you with this...

Matt
 
gwaktek,

As an outsider looking in, it appears to me that it will take at least two weeks of daily care to return that pool to a useable and clear condition. About an hour a day.

So, if you really want to get your pool back into shape, I only see two options:

Option 1. Either you have time to do this or not. If not, then that only leaves option 2.
Option 2. Find someone that is willing to do this for you.

Would any of your daughter's friends, or a neighbor's kid, be willing to make a few bucks to get your pool back into shape? We would be glad to help point them in the right direction.

Other than that, I'm not sure what else we can do to help from here...

Oh, I like your writing style.. maybe you should write for a living rather than be a "Road Warrior". You could spend more time at home... :D

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
Welcome to TFP!

I had algae in my pool once with a cartridge filter and I had to clean it everyday for a while. I bought an extra set of Pleatco filters so I could do a quick change. We have a LOT of trees, pics in the link in my sig. Once you get your pool cleaned up chlorine is your friend. Maintaining chlorine at the high end of the range will keep it clear. [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] We've had no algae or problems for many years years now.
 
Well, I gotta say, after looking at that picture my first suggestion is to stop going to LPS. Their only response it to sell you something. Flocks and clarifier ain't gonna fix that mess.

I will tell you, it didn't turn green overnight and it will take time to clear. But, we can teach you how to get it sparkling and keep it that was for a lot less money than the pool store.

Not much credence is given to pool store testing around here and test strips are even worse. While you would think that a "professional" would be the best, unfortunately in most cases it is quite the opposite. Between employees who blindly trust the word of chemical sales representatives and high school kids working in the pool store for the summer you end up with poor results from their testing. But, what can you do?? We base our pool care system on accurate testing and only adding what the pool needs, when it needs it. To do that you need your own accurate test kit. Order a TF100 and at least include the XL option. That will give you what you need while you are clearing the pool, and probably enough reagents for a couple of years normal use.

While you wait for it to get delivered, you have a homework reading assignment. Start with ABCs of Water Chemistry and Turning Your Green Swamp Back into a Sparkling Oasis

As was pointed out, chlorine and time are what are needed to clear that pool. Yo have to stop using any form of solid chlorine and move to liquid only.
 
Hello and welcome from a fellow "surrounded by nature" pool owner.

The guys have pretty much nailed your best way forward with a restorative SLAM Process and getting dialed in the [fc/cya][/FC/cya] ratios and getting your hands on a proper test kit: http://www.tfttestkits.com

I just want to share a few tips that have helped me keep a sparkly pool despite debris (with vigilance on the aboved noted FC/cya ratio).

1. Pool Skim...this attaches to a return and creates a Venturi effect that draws in leaves and debris before it sinks. It won't catch everything, but it helps as a daily support. Pumps gotta be running for it to work, of course.
Here's a link: https://www.amazon.com/PoolSkim-Pool-Skimmer-Cleaner/dp/B002WKOEGM

2. In my case, constant filtering is worth the little bit extra I pay in electric to do so. Ymmv.

3. If you know you're going to be out of town in leaf-dropping season, a cheap leaf net covering the pool is worth its weight in gold. Its not hard to rig up with bungees, and only takes a few min to pull off once you figure out a system.
Here's a link: Amazon.com : Blue Wave 20-ft x 40-ft Rectangular Leaf Net In Ground Pool Cover : Swimming Pool Covers : Patio, Lawn Garden

4. You might enjoy a switch to SWG - salt water generator - since you're on the road a lot. While there is initial investment, you get it back in chlorine production...so its ultimately neutral in cost if you can front-end the installation cash.

Lastly, just so you know I know your pain, here's what my pool looks like in late October. I now just stay open instead using a pool dome, and DID manage to keep the water clean in October before dome installation by rigging up that leaf net ;)

image.jpg
 

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