Adding Solar Bear Panels to our AGP- The process with pics

[cubbybeave08]

After much debate and study, we finally chose Solar Bear AGP with 2" headers, made by FAFCO and purchased through Amerimerc.com. Parts are readily available, FAFCO is great to work with, and we already had experience with Amerimerc's super fast shipping to our area (1 day if they have it stock). And, when we had a break-down in communication on the parts, Amerimerc took it upon themselves to contact FAFCO and work out our parts issue- resulting in FAFCO fed-exing us free parts. We bought 2 panels 4ft by 20ft plus 2 mounting kits, a repair kit, and add-on kit (the part we did not need since we are plumbing in parallel, and the add-on kit is for a serial installation).
NOTE- Edit made 5/9/09... Amerimeric has gone up in price considerably on these parts since we bought them this winter. Two other web sites that have prices more in line with what we bought them for: http://www.bestbuypoolsupply.com/abovegroundsolar.htm
and http://www.aquasuperstore.com/products/ ... ~3664.html
We have not dealt with either of these, but if we add another panel, we will check into them...End Edit
We are putting the panels on the ground on racks slanted at roughly 30 degrees- when you see our ground you will understand why I say "roughly" We are at 33 degrees latitude and are trying to get additional heat at the front and back of the main swim season. This, for us, means swimming as early as mid-April some years and as late as early November. We are actually at only 28% surface area of our pool, but we had to start somewhere, and we had to choose to stop spending money somewhere, so that is where we are now. We can always add another panel or two down the line. We are not able to put our panels on a roof, because the pool is too far away from any available roofs.
First set of pictures: the panels, as they arrived. They have been sitting in the shop for a couple weeks, which gets quite warm on sunny days, in hopes that they would unroll a little. They did not.

Got mine from the AquaSuperstore...nice thing about it is that they are in Florida no salesTax . It came within 4 days of ordering, and I installed it my self...They were great and if you live outside the state of Florida...then I would buy any large ticet iftem there...shipping only cost me 36 dollars.

 

[cubbybeave08]

AmJohn...NICE RACKS!!! :-D ...Seriously...Those look good and sturdy...I made mine out of PVC with the same concept as yours except I used pvc duct straping in two rows across the spans to keep my panels from falling through. It works just fine and it is one the back side of the pool so no one sees it. Except me...when I go out. I picked up two degrees yesterday with only a half day of sun...Will see what it does today.

 

[amjohn]

Glad to hear about aquasuperstore. It's always a bummer when you get used to a particular merchant, then they change prices or something to ruin it.
We have found something interesting on the racks. We cut out lightening holes in the plywood to make them more manageable. However, when the panels are running, the areas over those holes are significantly cooler to the touch than the areas that are on plywood. I suspect it is wind- we get a lot of that. I am not sure if we are losing heat (we need every bit we can get right now with all this weird cool rainy weather- it feels more like the Pacific Northwest than Texas), so I am going to try putting some foam over a couple of the holes behind the panels and see if that makes any difference. Anyone have any thoughts on whether this is a significant heat loss and thus worth my effort?

 

[cubbybeave08]

Glad to hear about aquasuperstore. It's always a bummer when you get used to a particular merchant, then they change prices or something to ruin it.
We have found something interesting on the racks. We cut out lightening holes in the plywood to make them more manageable. However, when the panels are running, the areas over those holes are significantly cooler to the touch than the areas that are on plywood. I suspect it is wind- we get a lot of that. I am not sure if we are losing heat (we need every bit we can get right now with all this weird cool rainy weather- it feels more like the Pacific Northwest than Texas), so I am going to try putting some foam over a couple of the holes behind the panels and see if that makes any difference. Anyone have any thoughts on whether this is a significant heat loss and thus worth my effort?

That is something worth noting because my rack is just a frame. So maybe heat escapes from the from the ambient air that flows around the rack. I may have to add some lumber or at least something solid behind mine...Please let me know. Because after an hour in the sun today my panel was barely warm. I may have to rethink this whole thing...Maybe a thin 1/4 inch piece of ply wood across each of my sections would work. Now are you feeling this cool ness before you start the flow of warmer water into the pool or after...because aparently if you touch the panel while it is running water through it will feel cool.

 

[amjohn]

When the panels first come on, they are hot, hot, hot- this is Texas and the sun is HOT here, even in winter, even in partly cloudy weather. If the sun comes out full for even 15 minutes, the panel temp sensor will jump to 95-103 degrees. (If it ever stops raining and we start having normal May weather - hot and sunny- they are going to be so great!!)
When the panels start running, they cool off from the bottom (where the pool water goes in) and after about 30 minutes of running, they are cool all the way to the top (water exit). The water coming out of the return is quite warm immediately, then cools a little once the panels are fully "wetted", but still warmer than the pool water. The panels stay cool/warmish when they are running, depending on how full and hot the sun is, and how much wind we are having. They are just definitely cooler where the cutout holes are located. We have not actually had a full sun day with them running yet, so I cannot report on maximum heating, just what I am getting with hazy skies and periodic breaks in the clouds.
I think to stop wind cooling, you could probably back them with some kind of water-proof foam insulation (old float rafts maybe?) and accomplish the same thing without battling plywood. I am actually thinking about using bubble wrap, or the kind of plastic foam that comes in packages. We mail order a lot, so we have scads of it around. If I had an old solar cover, that might be ideal.
Plywood is a royal pain. We just had to have the weight to keep the winds from flipping the racks over. But that weight creates its own problems.

 

[amjohn]

The final main chapter to our epic tale- wiring.
As you may or may not remember from several pages ago, we bought a Goldline AQUA-SOL-LV-TC controller from an e-bay seller for a crazy low price. So crazy low that I was worried that we had been taken and had purchased a very expensive door stop kit. Happily, I can report that this is a new, and so far, perfectly functioning unit, and that all the parts provided were as expected. The controller is currently running our pump on a timer (the Intermatic has been disconnected until we decide what our final configuration will be). It senses our pool temp and the temp on the solar panels and turns the panel 3-way valve off and on as required. We pick our desired pool temp and it takes it from there. It tells us what our current pool temp is, and is pretty accurate.
Unfortunately, all the cash saved by my savvy buying coup was lost in the round one plumbing debacle, so we just broke even.
We have not figured out the water cooling feature yet, but since we are having such a cool wet spring, we have a few weeks to figure that one out. We also do not have the pump override functioning yet. That would be good, because right now I am running the pump way more hours a day than I would like as our sunshine availability has been so unpredictable. I have the timer set to run 8:30AM- 6:30 PM- too much and our electricity bill is going to show it. We should be able to set it so that it only turns the pump on when it needs to heat or cool, plus whatever other times we have it set to run to make a full turnover. I have not been able to figure out what my turnover time yet is, but from reading other posts and last year's partial season, I am guessing about 6-8 hours a day in summer.
This unit also has a freeze-timer. We will decide whether to use that function when fall begins to loom- a very long time away right now. The workings of this controller are more delicate than the Intermatic freeze-timer, so we are thinking that this one will be coddled and put away in the winters to protect it from our stormy winters, and the Intermatic will take the brunt of that.
Pictures below
Picture 1: The wiring mess around the actuator and valve. We will be running the wire in conduit this weekend, but did not do it right away due to our uncertainty about how this would all end up (and I did not want another pipe fiasco like the plumbing). You can see that the actuator sits on top of the 3-way valve and they are bolted together. The pool water sensor is just below and to the left of the actuator, in the pipe where the pool water comes into the system. I was concerned that this was too far away from the pool to be accurate, but so far it has proven to be within 1 degree of the decent quality thermometer that hangs in the pool.
Picture 2: Solar sensor mounted near panel. The weird angle wood piece is because, when we had it mounted so that the bottom of the sensor was exposed to the wind, it was being seriously affected by the wind- reading too cool temps. The piece of wood more accurately reproduces the conditions of the panel.
Picture 3: the inside of the controller wired up and running, water heating, pool temp being sensed at 82 degrees. All lights are a go!!! We may have to add another relay for the pump override and cooling, but not a big deal.

 

[amjohn]

A little celebration and a little housekeeping:
Picture one: the actuator IN MOTION as it moves to turn on the panels at the behest of the controller- no human intervention involved!! YAAAAY!
Picture 2: unexpected panel problem- the solar panels sit on a lip on the bottom of the racks and are tied down with soft poly straps (this is FAFCO's design). The first panel has stayed fine, but the second panel, due to the replumb, torrential rains, and tornadic winds one weekend, slipped down off the lip and the bottom couple of tubes got squished by the straps. This panel had not been as securely mounted as the first, and the ground was more uneven under these racks, but we were caught by surprise by this happening. We tried several different ways to get the panel to slide back up on the racks and sit on the lip, the logical thing it would seem, but nothing doing. Instead, we had to move the ALL 3 of the RACKS UNDER THE PANEL until the lip stuck out far enough again. That was work. But the panel is where it belongs, and seems to be sitting more firmly now. The question that remains is whether the squished tubes will work themselves back out with time, sun, and water pressure.
Picture 3: rack back where it belongs, but tubes still squished.

 

[amjohn]

Postlog: so why was the controller so crazy cheap? My guesses-
1. The whole kit was new out of the packaging, but the manufacturing date stamp on the controller was Oct 2007. Probably had been sitting in a warehouse somewhere for a while.
2. The circular cutout for the timer on the controller panel was a little misplaced. It took us a while to get the front panel off, could not figure out why it seemed stuck, then when we went to put it back on, we realized that the sheet metal had been stamped slightly off center of the timer. We deal with sheet metal on a regular basis, so 10 minutes with a Dremel tool and that problem was solved.
3. The sensors came with the short little wiring pigtails, just enough to tie onto- we had to buy the 30 feet of wire. Also the specs called for twisted insulated wire of a particular gage- well guess what we could not get in our 2-horse town? I suggested ordering it, but my husband decided to use single insulated strands and make his own twisted. So far, it's working. (Oddly, the actuator came with 20 feet of wire- weird)
4. Only one relay in the controller, yet you need two to take advantage of all the features. A second relay looks to be about $65ish. However, as best as I could tell from Goldline's info, they only include one relay standard. A nice little extra expense that they get to tack on to surprise you.
5. The controller did not come with a power plug installed. We had to go and buy the power cord and plug and wire it in ourselves, using somewhat vague instructions. Apparently, this is also standard. When I contacted Goldline, the lady on the phone asked to speak to our installer, and could not believe we were using this unit for DIY. I finally asked to speak to someone who had actually installed one of these before- much better answers.

We still have things to do: run wiring through conduit before mice and fire ants get to it, finish figuring out all the features on the controller, improve the drainage in the area around the actuator (which is sitting in a smelly swamp right now), provide some sort of protective cover for the acutator valve to keep anyone from kicking into it or (more likely) my husband from hitting it with the lawnmower/weedwhacker.
But, at this stage in the game, in the midst of one the coolest,wettest springs in 10 years, we are picking up about a degree in the pool for every hour of sunlight that the panels get. We are only at %28 solar area to pool area coverage right now, but the controller definitely is maximizing the panel area that we have. We usually keep most of the heat rise with the solar blanket over night, except on nights of north winds and cool rains. We have not swam yet, mostly because we have been working on the solar panel installation every possible moment between rains, but I expect to be in any day (whenever it stops raining). In a "normal" May,I would have been swimming for a week or two already. We will consider working another panel into the system next year for even better heating, but now it is time to start on that DECK!

 

[cubbybeave08]

AmJohn...sunny all day here but cool only maybe upper 60s low 70s...But I shut the valve off when I went home for lunch when I came out an hour later the panel was only slightly warm to the touch. I am thinking that the panels are getting cooled from the air flowing over and under them. It is still pretty windy today...Last night we had a storm and the wind blew all 130 lbs of panels and water off my bracket...Will use straps to hold down. Thanks for the pictures.

cubbybeave...

 

[amjohn]

Well we are swimming pretty much every day now, even on cloudy windy days. The water drops to 84-85 during the night and picks back up to 88-89 during the day (remember, it's above ground and the air temps are usually in the 60s at night and it is windy here- that is a very reasonable drop, even with the solar cover). Yesterday we never got above 80 degrees air temp, and when we went to swim, it was cloudy and 72. But in our giant Very Warm Tub at EIGHTY NINE degrees, it was marvelous. At this rate we'll need the cooling feature in a few weeks. My husband finally agreed it was all worth it.
He still has one significant plumbing leak to fix. It is left over from plumbing round one- he figured if he just tightened it down good that it would go away- yeah right. Unfortunately, this is going to force us to drain the panels, as he did not put an isolation valve in the system that would keep the panels from draining out while he worked on the plumbing. He will be putting one in this time when he fixes the leak. The leak is resulting in sitting water full of algae right next to the pool- just a short few feet to algae being in the pool. So letting it leak all summer is not an option- it is also starting to become a fairly significant source of water loss.
We did discover that the solar override programming for this unit has a flaw. If the pump is not set to run, but the sun comes out, the controller turns on the pump and turns the valve- great. If the sun goes away, which happens after about every half hour to an hour with all the stormy weather we have been having, it turns the valve off and the pump off. Also good. But if the sun comes out again, it will ignore it for 2 hours. The thing is programmed to wait 2 hours before turning the pump on again to prevent "frequent cycling of the pump". I could see a half hour, but 2 hours? When we vacuum and backwash, we turn the pump off and on probably 4-6 times in a 2 hour time frame (it's the only way our pump/filter is set to do it). We don't do that daily obviously, but that was a surprising development. So instead, I am having the pump run from the minute the sun hits the solar sensor (about 10am because we have the panels a little too close to some trees to the east) until the avg time that the controller turns off the valve in the evening (about 6:30pm this time of the year). A little more than I would like, but the results have been wonderful, so I guess we live with it.

 

[amjohn]

Being new to whole solar heating thing, we accidentally got our water up to 94 degrees with panels and solar cover. Now that will be great for hot-tubbing on a moonlit night, and we will probably do that sometimes, but for trying to cool off on a 90 degree mid-day, it was like being simmered alive. Got it down to 85, but it took two days. One day with the fountain running all day and the solar cover off part of the day, and this last day with the fountain running all day and the solar cover off all night. (We lost 1/2 inch of water in those two days by the way.)
We are still trying to decide what is our "favorite" temp. 89 is great for evening swimming when our usual 10-20mph winds are blowing (windchill is very real with pools in the Great Plains). Mid afternoon in full hot sun with only 5-10 mph wind, 85 seems better. But our normal norm is going to be 90-100 degrees with 20-30 mph winds blowing in the heat of the day. Not sure what the ideal temp for that is yet, though we had 87-88 today for the water with the winds and high heat, and that was pretty pleasant.
Guess it is time to activate the cooling feature of the solar panels for night time. I went out that first night to see how cool they were. The air temp was about 70 degrees, the water temp was still 92, and the panel sensor was reading 61 degrees! I felt them, and I believe that was really how cool they were. They will cool the water for sure. Pretty soon our night-time lows will be more like 85 degrees, and they won't be quite as effective, but I was very surprised.
And I knew we would be dispensing with the solar cover for the "hottest" part of the summer, but never imagined we would be seriously considering putting it up by Jun1. Once we put it up, the next time we will see it will be mid-Sept. Baby, it's HOT out there.

 

[JohnT]

Being new to whole solar heating thing, we accidentally got our water up to 94 degrees with panels and solar cover.

Sounds awfully familiar. I guess that's another success for an "undersized" solar heat system.

 

[launboy]

Being new to whole solar heating thing, we accidentally got our water up to 94 degrees with panels and solar cover.

Sounds awfully familiar. I guess that's another success for an "undersized" solar heat system.

I've done that before too. 60% coverage on my pool though. Hmm, something doesn't sound right here. I get like 1 degree F. and hour when I have full sun. Seems like I should be getting more. Hmmm.

I accidently let our pool hit 97 last summer one day. It was like 95* outside that day too. So much for cooling off in the pool. :x

Normally like it around 88. Me being the skinny kid, anything under 86 is cold if I'm in it for a signifigant amount of time. I usually get a bunch of my friends(teenagers) over and we stay in the pool for at least 2 hours. Longest we were in was 7 hours, after going to Six Flags, we were in till midnight.

Adam

 

[amjohn]

Adam, you have about double the coverage that I do, and you have way less sun than I do, so one degree an hour may be about right. I get that with my %28 coverage.
I actually grew up in Minnesota-Iowa. I know what the sun is like up there. When I moved down here, it was like moving to another planet- the sun is so much hotter. It is hard to imagine if you have not been here, and I could never have imagined until I got here. I wear shorts and a tank top almost year round, not so much because the air temps in the winter, but because the sun is so intense. My friends know it is really "winter" when I put on pants-which lasts for about 4 weeks.
So that is what is contributing to my solar system being so effective even though it is "undersized". We are thinking we will not need another panel for heating, but that we may need another for cooling at the rate we are going. These are going to be more like "lunar cooling" panels than solar heating panels. Expecting possible 100 degrees air temp this weekend- not unusual by this time of the year.

 

[Tankless concepts]

Ok, so I really didn't read much of the text so this may have been covered already.....few things:

As a plumber I don't like seeing glued jounts with no purple primer exposed. While it very well may have been primed, I like to see the primer at least a 1/4" past the slip fitting. As was already corrected the sweeping too (COMBI) is a DWV piece only. Drain Waste Vent. I see you replaced it and not it looks correct. I noticed the WetNdry solvent...you still need to prime too. On all my pool pressurized fittings I sand the ends, than prime. The connection is un-breakable. I don't know if it snows where you live, but you may want to rethink the pipe support system you have going on.

As for the electrical...hard to tell from the pics but it appears you have an extention cord (or extention cord wire) running the pump. Either way I believe that is a no no.

If you are unsure if it is correct take a few pics of all things electrical with your pool and I'll let you know if your good. Different states have different codes....extention cords being used to service an installed appliance is a no no across the country.

ANyhow, great job on the wood work and the PT materials. It's obvious you are trying to do this right

 

[Tankless concepts]

LOL.... with respect to a post on page two

We did not even think of the loop length issue, and we are both engineers. I was never very good with circuit design though.

I got a laugh out of that. I have my EE but stayed in construction.....I have said the same thing many times over the years!!

OK, so I read most of this post...you articulate rather well in description!!

The darn orang entention cord bugs me and could be the exact reason your pump is running at such poor pressure. It is (IMO) sub standard. 1.5 hp should yeild atleast 20-30 psi if not more. Reason? Voltage drop. Why? because the gauge of wire that is in that entention cord is too small....that, and you have it hooked up to 120 VAC versus 220. Most pumps can be ran either way, but the name plate will state that info. Long distances of wire will yeild a voltage drop. If your pump wants 110-120 and you offer 103 with your extention cord you will hurt the life of the motor and get poor performances.

What's the deal with the orange cord?

 

[amjohn]

The dang orange cord is not an extension cord- it is the power cord that is part of the pump. It appears to be hard wired into the pump. It just happens to be 20 feet long and a royal pain. You can see from the pictures below- it is attached through the back of the pump. I would much prefer a shorter cord, but the pump itself has a dire warning on it about modifying the cord. It is a Doughboy pump, and we will not buy one of those again. Their construction of the pool itself is good, but they should not be in the pump business if they are not going to make the same effort on the pumps as they do on the pool construction.
The black cord is what we used to wire the controller, and what the pump is plugged into to allow the pump timer and override feature on the controller to work. It is definitely hard wired into the controller as my husband did the work.
The second picture shows the plugin of the pump to the controller.
The third shows the plugin of the controller to the power box- also all my husbands work.
The pump is rated 1.5 hp, 12.4 amps, 115 VAC, 60Hz, 3450 RPM.
The orange cord from the pump has the following markings (hard to read, so I hope I got it right):
C(UL) SJTW 16AWGX3C 60c VW-1 E215210 100281-001
The black cord that we used: CC1 SEOPRENE 90 12AWG 3/C SJEW E54864(UL) 300V 90c CSA LL39753 SJTW(TPE) -50c to 60c FT2 Water Resistant P-241-3-MSHA
That is probably more than you wanted to know, but I do not read wiring code, so not sure which parts are important (other that the AWG being the gage and the temps with the small "c" being celsius).
I am guessing that the orange cord is appropriate for the 115VAC 12.4 amps of the pump, but just barely. What do you think?
Also, we do not have a snow load issue here, and will remove all the plumbing and solar panels in the winter, and just keep the pool running with freeze protection, so the bricks used to support the pipes are to keep them up off the ground, which is a drainage field, and to level the pipes up to the pump, as the ground falls away slightly from the pump area.
As far as priming goes, my husband primed when I was watching him, including under the wetndry sealant, but I was not standing over him every moment, and as you have read, the plumbing has been a point of contention here. He has to rework another section of it still. I will ask him about primer under the wetndry.

 

[dmanb2b]

Amjohn...please tell us those outlets are protected by a GFCI circuit breaker? Also, why not just plug in the long orange cord directly to the outlet?

 

[amjohn]

The solar controller not only turns the valve for the solar off and on, but it also controls our pump as it has an integrated timer. It also has a solar/cooling overrride so that if the pool water temp gets too low/high it will turn on the pump and start up the panels until the temp is back in range. We are still working on getting it all to do this as it is supposed to, but that will be the ideal situation. (The controller also can manage a booster pump/robot cleaner with it's own pump but we do not use that function.) So that is why the pump must be plugged into the controller and then the controller in to the power outlet.
We have a double breaker system.
Inside the house- the breaker box has a 20amp breaker.
Outside on the brick wall where the wiring dives into the ground, a "security breaker", not exactly sure what it is called. (It is the same thing used for our heat pump for the house.) See pictures below.

 

[Tankless concepts]

16 gauge (a.k.a. AWG = American Wire Gauge) wire on a 20 foot run with a constant 12.5 Amp load......Plus derating (the celcius temps).....Not on my watch. That should be 12 guage IMO. It depends on the power supply to the controller relay circuit. Is there a sub panel that was installed, and than proper power delivered to your controller? The black wire you described seems correct. Single Jacket (SJ) TW type wire (basically it's stranded) and that is standard. But notice the large decrese in gauging.....12 awg to the controller and than 16 to the pump. The higher the AWG the smaller the wire. I would bet the contents of my wallet that, if it was rewired with new 12 awg conductors, you would see a pretty decent sized increase in performance. Less hesitation in startup and overall better performance and longer life.

For the manu to supply that kind of cable is a total cost cutter. Sure it works, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea. I certanily couldn't get away with that kind of wire sizing out here. You guys seem to be the type to do your research than get it done, which is cool!! May I suggest you do that, with that pump's wiring. Things you want to learn about is means of protection for the wire run. With a lawn mower or weed wacker your situation constitutes some thought on that. A standard SJT is not legal in many states because of how easy it is to damage the wire. Run it in NMC (non metallic conduit) electrical PVC (must be gray, with electrical fittings ONLY). Once you get near the pump, transition to flex conduit and go directly into the pump casing, than wire within. This keeps it all water tite. For me this is about an hour or so job.

And I agree with the other poster about the GFI protection for that duplex. ALL outdoor recepts must be GFI protected.