Adding Solar Bear Panels to our AGP- The process with pics

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We will be running all the the wiring in the grey conduit. My husband got sick with allergies/sinus/etc, two weeks ago, so the project has been in limbo since then. All the wiring from the house to the outlet box is in conduit, we just need to finish the pump area. And, yes, the only reason we have not weedwhacked anything yet is because we have not had the whacker out- too sick for that too.
So are you suggesting that we re-hardwire the pump with 12 gage wire? I am pretty sure it will void the warranty on the less than year old pump, so I want to be really sure about that before we go there. If the wiring inside the pump is on the same standard as what is coming out of the pump, would that not just move the problem closer to the motor?
Actually, there are several other aspects of the pump that I am not happy with, so I am planning to contact Doughboy first and express my dissatisfaction. My ideal would be to get my money back and get a better quality pump.
 
OK, so you have a 20A (single pole) breaker for the pool circuit...OK, that's fine. The box outside on the brick is called a disconnect (a.k.a. Disco) and is required. The recepts you have installed in that O.D. box tells me that (at least the one on hte right) is a dedicated 20 Amp circuit. That is the only time you are to use that kind of recept. Only when it is on a dedicated 20 A circuit, otherwise you would use a standard 15 recept. The code reads if you have a 20 breaker and you are sharing more than one recept you are not required to use a 20 A recept. In this case you are not. Also, this duplex MUST be GFI protected...this is non negotiable.

Now, you said you have a double breaker system...to me, that means a double throw breaker....think oven or clothes dryer...electric water heater. What I think you have is a OCPD (over current protection device) and a disco...BUt these devices are on ONE 20A circuit...sound right?

What is that close up of?
 
amjohn said:
We will be running all the the wiring in the grey conduit. My husband got sick with allergies/sinus/etc, two weeks ago, so the project has been in limbo since then. All the wiring from the house to the outlet box is in conduit, we just need to finish the pump area. And, yes, the only reason we have not weedwhacked anything yet is because we have not had the whacker out- too sick for that too.
So are you suggesting that we re-hardwire the pump with 12 gage wire? I am pretty sure it will void the warranty on the less than year old pump, so I want to be really sure about that before we go there. If the wiring inside the pump is on the same standard as what is coming out of the pump, would that not just move the problem closer to the motor?
Actually, there are several other aspects of the pump that I am not happy with, so I am planning to contact Doughboy first and express my dissatisfaction. My ideal would be to get my money back and get a better quality pump.
Click to expand...


Well by all means see if you can get your money back....it's kinda like a kids toy made in China if you aske me.
Yes rewire the pump if you are going to keep it. Or simply wait out the year warranty to do it.

as for the reason to rewire it...it has to do with voltage drop. If the existing awg wire can deliver 110 VAC I would expect the 12 awg wire to deliver about 118 VAC. Voltage - Current - Watts are all relative. Ohms Law and a little bit of math can give you the exact voltage and current. This is important in the world of electricity. point is, are you delivering 110 VAC to your pump or 118 VAC to your pump. Those 8 volts make a big difference. It is also important to make sure the ENTIRE circuit from the main breaker panel ALL the way to the contacts on the controller board remains 12 AWG. On a 20A circuit it is very common (and correct) to see 12 awg wire. if the run is very short ( i think within 10 feet or so depending on the load) one could use 14 awg wire.

If you have a digital volt meter, you can check the voltage at your duplex. Do the same test in the kitchen or bathroom and make note of the difference. This is why you would want to rewire it. furthermore, If your run is not that long, but you have undersized conductors you could still see 118-120 VAC at the motor, but when it kicks on, you could easily see it drop to 100 than become nominal at 105-110...that is why the larger size conductors is important. Does this make any sense?

This is much more fun than working on proposals all day!
 
Yes we have a dedicated 20Amp breaker in the house for this system. It is labeled 20A SWD- so that would mean single throw, right? It is just one switch, not two that are linked together in the breaker box that move in tandem like for the A/C.
The disconnect is external on the house just before the wiring heads for the dirt. Wiring runs through the attic from the breaker box at one end of the house to the disco on the exterior of the other end of the house at the garage. I am pretty sure the wiring in the attic is 12 gage- I remember the big black wires sticking out of the garage wall as he cut holes to snake them down to the disconnect. The pool is 100 feet from the house. The wire running out to the pool is E30445 (UL) AWG 12 CU 3CDR with AWG 12 Ground Type UF-B 600 volts Sunlight Resistant.
There are two double outlets on the system right now- the ones you see in the picture inside the all weather box. We have in series, further down the line, the 12 gage wiring continues that will power another set of two double outlets in the near future, but right now it just terminates until we can get back to that project. Basically everything but the pump cord itself it 12 gage.
And I do not think these are GFCI outlets. They do say 20A-125V. I do not know why my husband did not use ones with GFCI, other than we do not have any in or exterior to our house (over 20 years old) and he did not think about using them. I think he assumed the disconnect combined with the dedicated 20A breaker was sufficient. They do have an open screw in the middle, between the two individual plug sockets. Might that be to install a GFCI switch?
I also understand about the pump cord being too low gage. I thought it was pretty skimpy and ridiculously long when we got it, but the dealer was not interested (or perhaps even educated enough) to discuss it.
 
The close up is of the ratings on the disconnect. Hard to read, so here is what they say.
Cat No FR221R Series G01
30A 120v 1o 2W
240V 1o 2W
HP ratings
120v 1/2hp std 2 max
240V 1.5 hp std 3 max
I think that means we are good. EE is not my strong point. Now, you break a wing off your aircraft, that I can fix (my degree is Aerospace Eng and my work experience is Aircraft structural modification and repair).
 
The plot thickens.....

So the main panel is one one side of the house, the disco is at the opposite end...call it 100 feet. Than you have about 100 feet of wire run to the controller. So total is 200 feet with 12 awg wire. Based on that you would have about a 5-8 volt drop.
That's alot.....
I would have ran atleast 10 awg but prolly more like 8 or 6 for future add ons. It's undersized, that's for sure...it's not the end of the world, but now maybe you can see why I mentioned rewiring the pump?

Have a look at these calculators:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html
I used:
Copper
Single phase
120 vt.
1/2 the circuit length 100'
Total amps 13

Voltage Drop:
Same numbers -
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

The more accurate you are in distance and exact wire size the better.
 
I think that means we are good. EE is not my strong point. Now, you break a wing off your aircraft, that I can fix (my degree is Aerospace Eng and my work experience is Aircraft structural modification and repair).
Click to expand...

Licensed Pilot and considering putting in a resume with the NTSB for aviation division....VERY hard position to get, but that would be one of my dream jobs...well, that and flying for Fed-Ex!! My good friend has your degree He was rejected for flight school for the Navy because he was a little near sighted in one eye.....that was a while ago...things have changed and he sells communications services to business...I give him a hard time about that often!
 
I'd put the distance from the main panel to the disconnect at closer to 50 feet. This is a tiny little house on the Texas prairie.
I'll ask my husband if he ran 10 or 12 gage in the attic. I know they were some big ol' wires, so it could be 10. Not that it makes a huge difference.
I am still wondering about re-wiring the pump however. Once we get inside the pump, if the manufacturer only used 16gage conductor for the power cord, would not the wiring around the motor also be sized in a similar wimpy manner? I am trying to get a wiring diagram for the pump motor- will have to get it from Doughboy- they don't give that kind of info to their dealers. We will certainly look at rewiring the pump cord if we cannot change out the pump. I just want to make sure that we would not overpower the internal wiring and risk burning out the motor.
PS
Not a licensed pilot ( my husband was but has not maintained the license), the Air Force rejected me for really bad eyesight and being overly short (or picked a little green as my family calls it). Now I have health problems that would prevent me from passing the physical- hence the pool.
 
amjohn said:
I'd put the distance from the main panel to the disconnect at closer to 50 feet. This is a tiny little house on the Texas prairie.
I'll ask my husband if he ran 10 or 12 gage in the attic. I know they were some big ol' wires, so it could be 10. Not that it makes a huge difference.
I am still wondering about re-wiring the pump however. Once we get inside the pump, if the manufacturer only used 16gage conductor for the power cord, would not the wiring around the motor also be sized in a similar wimpy manner? prolly, however if you deliver the correct voltage with the capacity to handle the current I firmly believe the pump will perform better.

Think of a vertical stabilizer that is undersized.....will it fly, sure....will it be more work for the pilot to keep the ball centered? sure will. Will the envelope change for spins? you betcha.The point is, it will work...just not as good as it could

I am trying to get a wiring diagram for the pump motor- will have to get it from Doughboy - they don't give that kind of info to their dealers. We will certainly look at rewiring the pump cord if we cannot change out the pump.

I just want to make sure that we would not overpower the internal wiring and risk burning out the motor. Well, you can't. Unless you hook up improper voltage. In your case you would have to hook up 220 ON PURPOSE to a 120vt circuit. If you ran 2 awg wire to it, it would only work better. But in your case with a 12.5 amp load...12 awg wire is correct for your setup. This is assuming that the wire to the controller is correct...ask hubby!!

PS
Not a licensed pilot ( my husband was but has not maintained the license), the Air Force rejected me for really bad eyesight and being overly short (or picked a little green as my family calls it). Now I have health problems that would prevent me from passing the physical- hence the pool.
Click to expand...
 
10 gage in the attic from the dedicated 20 amp breaker to the disconnect with a 50 foot run. 12 gage to the outlet box for about 100 foot run. 12 gage throughout the controller wiring. The only thing not 12 gage is the pump cord itself.
I will start the process of contacting Doughboy about inferior pump quality, and try for the money first. If that is a no, my husband saw no reason not to install a new 12 gage cord of appropriate length on the pump. We would still keep a connector on it and not hardwire it to the controller, because we switch controllers from winter to summer. The Goldline solar controller is too delicate and expensive to stay out year round. The Intermatic freeze protection timer (also all 12 gage wiring) is the year round workhorse, so it takes over in non-swim season.
Thanks for the education. I have a lot to think about, but I think I have a better understanding here on this. I have felt like the pump construction was substandard from the beginning, but did not have a documented reason for my feeling. Now I have a couple.
 

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please just don't forget to consider adding a GFCI outlet to the circuit or put in a GFCI breaker....Tankless can prob guide you in the right direction...also I didn;t notice if you had a bonding wire near your pool equipment pad, but please make sure the pool is properly bonded as well.
 
It is bonded, the wire is not visible under the rock. I looked up GFCI here http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wir ... on-27.html
If I am reading correctly, I only need the first outlet in the series to be GFCI and that covers the rest? OR put a GFCI breaker in and that covers all the outlets for the pool?
My husband cannot remember exactly why he did not use any GFCI outlets, but part of it was a space issue and part of it was just that we do not have any GFCI outlets or breakers in our house (20 years old) so he did not even think about needing them. I am sure there was some other reason that sounded good at the time as well.
I am wondering as well, will a 20 year old breaker box accomodate GFCI breakers, or are they sized larger?
 
amjohn said:
It is bonded, the wire is not visible under the rock. I looked up GFCI here http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wir ... on-27.html
If I am reading correctly, I only need the first outlet in the series to be GFCI and that covers the rest? OR put a GFCI breaker in and that covers all the outlets for the pool?
My husband cannot remember exactly why he did not use any GFCI outlets, but part of it was a space issue and part of it was just that we do not have any GFCI outlets or breakers in our house (20 years old) so he did not even think about needing them. I am sure there was some other reason that sounded good at the time as well.
I am wondering as well, will a 20 year old breaker box accomodate GFCI breakers, or are they sized larger?
Click to expand...

You can put a GFCI circuit breaker in next to your outlet...It is a line/load type of a situation. For my pump I have a rounded plug that twists to lock...My box on the post has the outlet and then next to it is the GFCI circuit breaker. I had to replace mine this year the GFCI got wet and tripped permanently. So you don't need to put them at the circuit breaker itself, you can put it next to the outlet as part of the outlet box on your post by the pool...Most code I am sure that you know says that this has to be on a dedicated circuit...This means that the line to the pump has to come of a seperate circuit from your box. Just checking to make sure that it is done to code. You could have issues later if not.
 
GFCI outlets are on the large side, but most outlet boxes will fit them. A GFCI outlet is the simplest option. As you suggested, you only need the first one to be GFCI, and it can protect all of the outlets on that circuit.

Adding a separate CGCI breaker, as cubbybeave08 suggested, is also an option but is more complex and more expensive.
 
So you don't need to put them at the circuit breaker itself, you can put it next to the outlet as part of the outlet box on your post by the pool...Most code I am sure that you know says that this has to be on a dedicated circuit...This means that the line to the pump has to come of a seperate circuit from your box. Just checking to make sure that it is done to code. You could have issues later if not.
Click to expand...

Huh? You're saying that the GFCI device must be on a dedicated circuit? That is not accurate.
 
I think the poster was saying the pump needs to be on a dedicated 20a gfci circuit...I have two circuits running out to my pool area...one dedicated for the pump with a 20a GFI circuit breaker...the second is my accessory with a standard 15amp breaker and a gfci outlet...the second outlet on the same circuit is a standard outlet as it is protected by the gfci outlet
 
Been working on the temperature- a very delicate balance. Our "perfect" seems to be 88 degrees right now, because we are often swimming in breezy, shady, cooler evenings (though we will probably go down a little as summer progresses becasue there is no such thing as a "cool" evening shortly). With hot sunny days and a solar cover, the pool can get above that really fast. I tried taking the cover off completely a week ago and bam- we got cooler cloudy rainy weather. Lost much heat and 2 days of swimming-darn. But that was June 2, a little early, so I will know better next year.
So we put it back on. Now comes the delicate dance of what temp to set the solar heater at. The solar cover adds temp during the afternoon- as much as 3 degree, so we only want the solar heater to get it so high in the morning, or the solar cover will overheat it. We have started using the fountain during the day and cooling function for the panels at night. The cooling seems to work really well. It cools to right what I set it to. The water has been reaching 90-91 degrees daily- too hot. I had been gradually increasing the nighttime cooling so that the water would start cooler in the morning. You may ask, why not just take the silly solar cover off? That would be simplest, but it does a lot to limit evaporation, which is fast here, and the amount of dirt, pasture, and pollen that ends up in the pool. But finally last night I took part of the cover off and set the pool to cool to 86 lat night. It obeyed perfectly- only problem- it's cloudy, windy, and cool today. Darn.
Like I said, a delicate balance.
Update on electrical and plumbing issues. Husband is finally better, though still grumpy, so we are in work again. He mostly fixed our remaining leaks, with the exception of one on the fittings glued to the 3-way valve. If you look back a few pages, you will remember he glued DWV fittings into that valve so completely that it looks like we would have to destroy the valve to get them off. So we just to hope they would stay leak free- well that was silly. Sure enough- we have a leak there. So does anyone have any suggestions for getting those fittings off that valve without destroying it, or do we just live with the (very slight right now) leak?
Next up - GFCI outlet on the system (much against his will) and conduit for the wiring for the solar controller before something chews through the wires and really ruins our week.
 
Tankless concepts said:
So you don't need to put them at the circuit breaker itself, you can put it next to the outlet as part of the outlet box on your post by the pool...Most code I am sure that you know says that this has to be on a dedicated circuit...This means that the line to the pump has to come of a seperate circuit from your box. Just checking to make sure that it is done to code. You could have issues later if not.
Click to expand...

Huh? You're saying that the GFCI device must be on a dedicated circuit? That is not accurate.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Dmanb...you are right...What I was saying is that the line to the pump according to most code that I have read...here in Indiana says that it has to be on a dedicated circuit...somewhere on that line there needs to be a GFCI...BUT I was saying that the Pump needed to be on a dedicated circuit.
 
Mine is. We just need to add the GFCI into the circuit.
So, any suggestions on how to get those DWV fittings off the three way valve, or are we just stuck with getting a new valve once this one starts leaking more than we are willing to tolerate?
( A little seepage is okay- we live in the middle of a pasture on the edge of a creek - that water is just going into a drainage field, so as long as it is not affecting my pool's water level, or letting air into the system, a little wet is not the end of the world.)
 
amjohn said:
Mine is. We just need to add the GFCI into the circuit.
So, any suggestions on how to get those DWV fittings off the three way valve, or are we just stuck with getting a new valve once this one starts leaking more than we are willing to tolerate?
( A little seepage is okay- we live in the middle of a pasture on the edge of a creek - that water is just going into a drainage field, so as long as it is not affecting my pool's water level, or letting air into the system, a little wet is not the end of the world.)
Click to expand...

It was really quite easy to put the GFCI circuit breaker at your outlet box by the pool. I didn't do the original work...but I did replace mine a few weeks ago. It was not that hard...You just need to have the wiring done according to the directions... You have the red and white wires coming into the GFCI and then a red and white wire running to your outlet. You can place them side by side if your box allows...if not you can get a new box that does...It is pretty simple. I know that I am simplifying it...but it only took my 5 minutes to change the GFCI out and put new one in.
 

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