- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,848
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Robin is so understanding to get you a girlfriend like that. Great wife, happy life!
12 May 2024 Equipment and Controls While Thin Set Dries
- Thread starter setsailsoon
- Start date
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
06 May 2024: Slogging through, close eye on quality
Making great progress today. Another 5-man crew with only one new guy. I think we're going to have most of the bulk work complete today. Edge trim tile and the 32'x4' black wall tile on the back of the infinity wall are on the docket for tomorrow. We completed preliminary grading Saturday so we've now got room for paver delivery - hoping for tomorrow. This will change the look tremendously. Everything on the patio will be removed and we'll have the new patio floor with the same leather surface marble (white/grey/silverish) all the way out to surround the pool. Paver work can be 7-10 days including prep. While all that happens I will be getting equipment/plumbing/electrical/controls in prep for the electric and pool barrier inspection that's required before water is added. Photos from today below.
Chris
Making great progress today. Another 5-man crew with only one new guy. I think we're going to have most of the bulk work complete today. Edge trim tile and the 32'x4' black wall tile on the back of the infinity wall are on the docket for tomorrow. We completed preliminary grading Saturday so we've now got room for paver delivery - hoping for tomorrow. This will change the look tremendously. Everything on the patio will be removed and we'll have the new patio floor with the same leather surface marble (white/grey/silverish) all the way out to surround the pool. Paver work can be 7-10 days including prep. While all that happens I will be getting equipment/plumbing/electrical/controls in prep for the electric and pool barrier inspection that's required before water is added. Photos from today below.
Chris
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
07 May 2024: Update Owners Must Take Accountability
A couple of incidents have happened in the past few days that are worth mentioning here. I believe all owners whether OB or using a PB should take ultimate responsibility for safety and quality. Some day PB certification will be more stringent and they will be more consistent with quality. But that's not where we are now. The only difference between an OB is how you address/rectify. For safety, if there's time without direct intervention I would have the "person in charge" take corrective action. If that person's not there or there is immediate danger of an injury I take action immediately by shutting down the operation, explain corrective action then let them resume, warned. Safety Example: young man without safety glasses using a grinder. Simply ask him to stop and point out glasses needed then follow up with crew leader. Easy, peasy. If it happens again limit his role or terminate him. Quality Example: I noticed yesterday a different brand of thin set in the stack. I had checked the other brand technical documentation and found it's correct use. So I checked the different bag. Technical documents are readily available online. Turns out the product is a quality brand and usable outside/inside but specifically excluded for pools. So I showed the crew the documents and why it's prohibited. This morning the bags were still there so I required they remove it from site. No need to tempt fate. How did this happen? These guys work for many different pool builders that vary greatly in quality. I'm quite certain I've seen pools under construction with these same "NOT FOR POOLS" documentation. Many craft labor will say "I do this all the time for PB's". I'm sure it's true but not for the really good PB's and there are many, more not good PB's unfortunately. Also, it's much easier to get since it's available from big box stores. The approved brands may be also sometimes available but I haven't found them in construction quantities any place other than pool product distributors.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
A couple of incidents have happened in the past few days that are worth mentioning here. I believe all owners whether OB or using a PB should take ultimate responsibility for safety and quality. Some day PB certification will be more stringent and they will be more consistent with quality. But that's not where we are now. The only difference between an OB is how you address/rectify. For safety, if there's time without direct intervention I would have the "person in charge" take corrective action. If that person's not there or there is immediate danger of an injury I take action immediately by shutting down the operation, explain corrective action then let them resume, warned. Safety Example: young man without safety glasses using a grinder. Simply ask him to stop and point out glasses needed then follow up with crew leader. Easy, peasy. If it happens again limit his role or terminate him. Quality Example: I noticed yesterday a different brand of thin set in the stack. I had checked the other brand technical documentation and found it's correct use. So I checked the different bag. Technical documents are readily available online. Turns out the product is a quality brand and usable outside/inside but specifically excluded for pools. So I showed the crew the documents and why it's prohibited. This morning the bags were still there so I required they remove it from site. No need to tempt fate. How did this happen? These guys work for many different pool builders that vary greatly in quality. I'm quite certain I've seen pools under construction with these same "NOT FOR POOLS" documentation. Many craft labor will say "I do this all the time for PB's". I'm sure it's true but not for the really good PB's and there are many, more not good PB's unfortunately. Also, it's much easier to get since it's available from big box stores. The approved brands may be also sometimes available but I haven't found them in construction quantities any place other than pool product distributors.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
Last edited:
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,848
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
And the evidence is long gone by the time the homeowner sees tile problems.
The sub contracting model makes quality control much more difficult. Even Boeing discovered that.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,524
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
On the thinset issue I suspect that the subs don’t typically carry a lot of inventory on consumable items like that. They probably run out on a job and then send one of their guys to the local hardware store to get something similar. That’s how the bag ends up on their truck. And since most homeowners aren’t as observant as you and PBs generally only care about the schedule being met, substandard materials are used as replacements and the subs develop the attitude of “it’s ok on other jobs…”
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
07 May 2024 Update Mucho Progresso!
Even though they are working one man down today we have a lot of progress! Grout has started - Charcoal Black and it's gorgeous! We'll have almost all the beam tile in at quitting time today. Should be finished or very close to finished tomorrow. A few tiles on the step edges/accents and about half the grout are all that remains. Also we started on the 6x6 tile on the back wall yesterday and it's over half finished now. Since we're close to finishing tile we took delivery of the pavers, about 1900 sq ft including the patio which amounted to a little over 14 pallets (last photo).
I have to get the controls working asap so @Katodude I'll be PM'ing you I'm sure!
This was a pretty good day of progress!
Chris
Even though they are working one man down today we have a lot of progress! Grout has started - Charcoal Black and it's gorgeous! We'll have almost all the beam tile in at quitting time today. Should be finished or very close to finished tomorrow. A few tiles on the step edges/accents and about half the grout are all that remains. Also we started on the 6x6 tile on the back wall yesterday and it's over half finished now. Since we're close to finishing tile we took delivery of the pavers, about 1900 sq ft including the patio which amounted to a little over 14 pallets (last photo).
I have to get the controls working asap so @Katodude I'll be PM'ing you I'm sure!
This was a pretty good day of progress!
Chris
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
08 May 2024 Update : Starting to look like a pool
Folks,
We had 3- 4man crews yesterday. Got about 1/3 of the pavers done and almost all the tile. Unfortunately the lead tile guy got in a wreck on the way to work so we're a little behind on tile. But tile is no longer on the critical path since pavers and the needed little retaining wall are CP activities now and will take about 5 more days.
Chris
Nice accents our tile guy suggested at the last minute
Folks,
We had 3- 4man crews yesterday. Got about 1/3 of the pavers done and almost all the tile. Unfortunately the lead tile guy got in a wreck on the way to work so we're a little behind on tile. But tile is no longer on the critical path since pavers and the needed little retaining wall are CP activities now and will take about 5 more days.
Chris
Nice accents our tile guy suggested at the last minute
Attachments
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
09 May 2024 Paver Progress
Finally starting to cover up a lot of the dirt. Wife is getting happier.
Finally starting to cover up a lot of the dirt. Wife is getting happier.
LOVE the accent tile. Just what was needed! Well done on them for suggesting it!
LOVE the decking tile as well! That is going to nice on the feet in the heat!
LOVE the decking tile as well! That is going to nice on the feet in the heat!
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
12 May 2024 Equipment and Controls While Thin Set Dries
I was really hoping to have this pool in and operational by Mother's Day but instead we're finishing up while we wait at least another week for tile thin set to cure. So now I'm finalizing equipment layout. I always wanted to do this so I can optimize for maintenance as well as other factors. Pumps are set very close to final position because I want them to line up straight to the suction lines. They appear pretty far back but keep in mind I'll need an elbow reducer, a tee, and check valve in each one. I plan to use union type flange fittings on each suction and discharge line. The main pump on the right is lined up to my super stout 4" suction line coming from the infinity basin drains. It's lifting about 10' and over 200 gpm max flow which is why I went with the 4" line. The smaller pump is to the left and dedicated to filtering. I'll use the main pool drain for it. My plan is to lock down these locations then play around with alternate configurations for the heater and filter to optimize piping connections. The only equipment not shown is my swg which will be after the heater before the returns which are on the left end of the pipe verticals.
Any comments/suggestions before I start cutting pipe would be very much welcome.
View SW
View NW
Equipment Pad Facing South
Equipment Pad Facing East
I was really hoping to have this pool in and operational by Mother's Day but instead we're finishing up while we wait at least another week for tile thin set to cure. So now I'm finalizing equipment layout. I always wanted to do this so I can optimize for maintenance as well as other factors. Pumps are set very close to final position because I want them to line up straight to the suction lines. They appear pretty far back but keep in mind I'll need an elbow reducer, a tee, and check valve in each one. I plan to use union type flange fittings on each suction and discharge line. The main pump on the right is lined up to my super stout 4" suction line coming from the infinity basin drains. It's lifting about 10' and over 200 gpm max flow which is why I went with the 4" line. The smaller pump is to the left and dedicated to filtering. I'll use the main pool drain for it. My plan is to lock down these locations then play around with alternate configurations for the heater and filter to optimize piping connections. The only equipment not shown is my swg which will be after the heater before the returns which are on the left end of the pipe verticals.
Any comments/suggestions before I start cutting pipe would be very much welcome.
View SW
View NW
Equipment Pad Facing South
Equipment Pad Facing East
- May 23, 2015
- 24,524
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The filter is going to be way more maintenance than the heater (hopefully). I would have the filter set in a position where it is the most easily accessible for a single person to lift the top half off. You need room to maneuver around the thing you are working on. Putting the filter between the heater and the wall will make it harder in my opinion. I would line them up side by side facing out with plenty of room between them (maybe you need more concrete pad). Adding a few elbows and bends in the pipes isn't going to amount to a hill of beans in terms of head loss ... but your back will thank you when it comes time to access the equipment.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,848
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Be mindful of where the heater exhausts to.
Check your local codes on the distance between the heater exhaust and any openings in the house. I see a window near the heater.
Check your local codes on the distance between the heater exhaust and any openings in the house. I see a window near the heater.
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Good points Matt! There's plenty room to do it either way. I'll take a look at that option. It might actually make sense to move the filter to the far left end for access. Once I get all the construction junk out of the way there's a lot of room at that end. Piping on it is pretty simple since it has a dedicated pump.
Chris
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,848
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Must be located 6 in. away from the building wall and the following distances away from any building wall openings, included but not limited to vented eaves, doors, windows, gravity air inlet:
- 4 ft. below,
- 4 ft. horizontally
Last edited:
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Yep, those windows are fixed non-opening partly for that reason... good catch! Our rules are 5' there's also a requirement that the vent on the let-down regulator can't be 5' from a receptacle. I literally had to run two of them for my external mounted water heaters over 10'. Then they also required I paint the vent pipe to make it more UV resistant.
They were laying my filter plumbing the same as they always do, in front. I asked them to use the back so the drain was in the front. It is SUPER nice being able to walk right up to the filter. Your drain looks good as is, but you can put an extension and a valve on it if it ends up hard to reach.
For my next pool, I'll spin the pump 180 degrees too so I can walk up to the control pad without climbing over pipes. I'm // thisclose to buying the remote adapter and mounting it on a post in front, every time. Then I Google it and spit out my coffee that they want $150 for glorified phone cord and a blank plastic cover plate.
For my next pool, I'll spin the pump 180 degrees too so I can walk up to the control pad without climbing over pipes. I'm // thisclose to buying the remote adapter and mounting it on a post in front, every time. Then I Google it and spit out my coffee that they want $150 for glorified phone cord and a blank plastic cover plate.
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
13 May 2024 Permit Interfaces
Folks,
Thought I might mention one of the interface management issues I've run into since it could be relevant to other OB pools. My pool permit does not include the enclosure but there is a significant interface since the footers for the enclosure are a permitted item and need a structural inspection. It is also very cost effective and much better looking to have the enclosure and pavers use the same footer. I permitted this way since the enclosure bidders were way out on schedule... at least 3 months. Pavers and support are not structural so they don't have a permit nor any building department inspections. Normally, if pavers are down the enclosure company removes the outer course then forms, inspects, fills the form and replaces the outer pavers and installs the framing by bolting through the outer paver into their concrete footer. I need to get my pavers done so I can demob this contractor. But he has to build a 3-course cinder block retaining wall across the back about 25' on each end of the pool. The paver contractor just want's me to do the enclosure outside his pavers, the enclosure guy just wants me to hold paver completion. I can't be sure the enclosure design will be able to use the 3 cinder block retaining wall. This is so typical... each sub wants to optimize their requirement. The OB is trying to optimize the entire project. So I told the enclosure sub to have his engineer send a letter confirming cinder blocks under his footer are permitted and to get this modification to his permit. Worst case this will cost a couple hundred $. He did this just in time and got his modified permit approved last Friday. So now, I'll have the paver sub do their retaining wall 12" lower than plan and form the enclosure footer (12"x12" with 2 #4 rebar). The enclosure sub will call for his inspection. Then the paver sub will fill the forms with concrete and we'll be on our way. So I had to negotiate a fair change order to his contract. I do this by estimating my cost to build. I already have an estimate of my material costs then 2.5x as installed cost. Also have a $/linear ft for footers from a concrete sub. We were able to settle on total cost adder very quickly since my paver sub was able to do it cheaper than my cost because he doesn't have to spend time mobilizing to my site. The savings were a little under $1000. I save so I'm happy, the paver sub gets a little more work so he's happy. And most important this is all in writing before the work is performed. As I've mentioned before PB's that do their job well earn every penny. Unfortunately only a few do this.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
Chris
Folks,
Thought I might mention one of the interface management issues I've run into since it could be relevant to other OB pools. My pool permit does not include the enclosure but there is a significant interface since the footers for the enclosure are a permitted item and need a structural inspection. It is also very cost effective and much better looking to have the enclosure and pavers use the same footer. I permitted this way since the enclosure bidders were way out on schedule... at least 3 months. Pavers and support are not structural so they don't have a permit nor any building department inspections. Normally, if pavers are down the enclosure company removes the outer course then forms, inspects, fills the form and replaces the outer pavers and installs the framing by bolting through the outer paver into their concrete footer. I need to get my pavers done so I can demob this contractor. But he has to build a 3-course cinder block retaining wall across the back about 25' on each end of the pool. The paver contractor just want's me to do the enclosure outside his pavers, the enclosure guy just wants me to hold paver completion. I can't be sure the enclosure design will be able to use the 3 cinder block retaining wall. This is so typical... each sub wants to optimize their requirement. The OB is trying to optimize the entire project. So I told the enclosure sub to have his engineer send a letter confirming cinder blocks under his footer are permitted and to get this modification to his permit. Worst case this will cost a couple hundred $. He did this just in time and got his modified permit approved last Friday. So now, I'll have the paver sub do their retaining wall 12" lower than plan and form the enclosure footer (12"x12" with 2 #4 rebar). The enclosure sub will call for his inspection. Then the paver sub will fill the forms with concrete and we'll be on our way. So I had to negotiate a fair change order to his contract. I do this by estimating my cost to build. I already have an estimate of my material costs then 2.5x as installed cost. Also have a $/linear ft for footers from a concrete sub. We were able to settle on total cost adder very quickly since my paver sub was able to do it cheaper than my cost because he doesn't have to spend time mobilizing to my site. The savings were a little under $1000. I save so I'm happy, the paver sub gets a little more work so he's happy. And most important this is all in writing before the work is performed. As I've mentioned before PB's that do their job well earn every penny. Unfortunately only a few do this.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
Chris
Last edited:
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,222
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
17 May 2024 Update: While I'm waiting for tile to set sulfur issue
Folks,
Waiting is boring even though I've still got some important things to do to get ready for plaster like get my RPi working. But suddenly one additional item cropped up that needed my full attention. As I've mentioned before I have some pretty nasty well water to deal with. Fortunately it's almost perfectly balanced from CSI but it also has 2-3 ppm H2S. I spent a LOT of time, effort and $ getting this addressed over a year ago and ended up with air injection over catalytic carbon (AIO) to remove 95%. After this and mixed bed softening to get rid of hardness and tannins, I remove remaining sulfur compounds with a polishing filter. The one I've had in place for over a year (KDf 85/catalytic carbon) worked great until my Fleck controller went nuts and stopped doing it's backflush operation which also refills the air bubble at top of the unit. It normally does this every night. Instead of feed water down to ~.1ppm Sulfide it was about 2.5 ppm. Didn't take long to overwhelm the polisher and for over a week we had 2-3 ppm going into the house... aweful! Even worse, wife also very, very unhappy!! So you can see why the priority change from RPi happened. I tried every water treating service I could find locally that just wanted to sell me their fancy wiz bang unit (I had experimented with all of them and they didn't work well for my application at all. I finally called and spoke to Xander at Durowater (manufacturer of the AIO unit) and he overnighted a replacement control head at a superb price. I forgot how helpful they were during the initial install... Should have called them first, these folks have been superb! I got it installed and S was immediately dropped to .1 ppm. Much more tolearble to me and then I realized the polisher was not going to work anymore. It must have been very depleated after a week with my 2.5 ppm S well water. My wife has demonstrated through double blind test repeatable ability to detect 85 ppb! So I went on a frantic search for at least some catalytic carbon. Couldn't find any but did find a little in an old container of GAC not CAC. To my surprise it worked great. Question to all is will this work long term? It's a fraction of the cost of KD/CAC. But I'm trying to see which one I should order long term. I have a refillable 4.5"X20" filter. Right now it only has about 6" in the bottom filled with GAC... need some expert advice pretty quick to avoid the wrath of Robin please! @JoyfulNoise @JamesW or any other chemistry guru please.
Thanks in advance.
Chris
Folks,
Waiting is boring even though I've still got some important things to do to get ready for plaster like get my RPi working. But suddenly one additional item cropped up that needed my full attention. As I've mentioned before I have some pretty nasty well water to deal with. Fortunately it's almost perfectly balanced from CSI but it also has 2-3 ppm H2S. I spent a LOT of time, effort and $ getting this addressed over a year ago and ended up with air injection over catalytic carbon (AIO) to remove 95%. After this and mixed bed softening to get rid of hardness and tannins, I remove remaining sulfur compounds with a polishing filter. The one I've had in place for over a year (KDf 85/catalytic carbon) worked great until my Fleck controller went nuts and stopped doing it's backflush operation which also refills the air bubble at top of the unit. It normally does this every night. Instead of feed water down to ~.1ppm Sulfide it was about 2.5 ppm. Didn't take long to overwhelm the polisher and for over a week we had 2-3 ppm going into the house... aweful! Even worse, wife also very, very unhappy!! So you can see why the priority change from RPi happened. I tried every water treating service I could find locally that just wanted to sell me their fancy wiz bang unit (I had experimented with all of them and they didn't work well for my application at all. I finally called and spoke to Xander at Durowater (manufacturer of the AIO unit) and he overnighted a replacement control head at a superb price. I forgot how helpful they were during the initial install... Should have called them first, these folks have been superb! I got it installed and S was immediately dropped to .1 ppm. Much more tolearble to me and then I realized the polisher was not going to work anymore. It must have been very depleated after a week with my 2.5 ppm S well water. My wife has demonstrated through double blind test repeatable ability to detect 85 ppb! So I went on a frantic search for at least some catalytic carbon. Couldn't find any but did find a little in an old container of GAC not CAC. To my surprise it worked great. Question to all is will this work long term? It's a fraction of the cost of KD/CAC. But I'm trying to see which one I should order long term. I have a refillable 4.5"X20" filter. Right now it only has about 6" in the bottom filled with GAC... need some expert advice pretty quick to avoid the wrath of Robin please! @JoyfulNoise @JamesW or any other chemistry guru please.
Thanks in advance.
Chris