Do I even need a valve?

PoolStored said:

Ball valves should never be put in pool plumbing.
Kaplans bronze metal, they are ok and can be replaced, but CMP diverters are the same price.
Stopper are bronze medal. They work, but are a pain vs. just move a diverter.
DIVERTERS are gold medal. They can be rebuilt. Jandy, Hayward, Pentair and CMP make gold medal diverters.
The filter, being "closed," when you open the pump lid will do nothing.
Get a good CMP valve for the suction side (between pool and pump), and another for the return (between filter and pool).
Put Unions on the the input to the pump and return from the filter.

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By saying "medal" you're basically ranking them right?
The Kaplans are very well rated hence why I was looking at them.

And what I meant by the multiport, if it's in closed position then water from return shouldn't rush back into pump basket right?

PoolStored said:

Yes.

Post a picture of what you call a multiport. An MPV, or multiport valve is usually on a sand filter, which is AFTER the pump. So even if the multiport is closed, when you open the pump lid on an AGP, water will drain through the pump. I think we are just crossing paths on terminology Looks like you have a cartridge filter.

Maybe fill out your signature?

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Yes, my current setup is cartridge. That's all old stuff and is getting replaced this weekend.

I do mean multiport on the sand filter yes.
I'm talking about closing the multiport on the filter to stop the water from the return pushing back into pump basket.

Basically if I have a valve before and right after pump and close them both to clean the basket, it should limit additional pool water from coming in the same as a single valve + mpv in "closed" would accomplish, unless I'm misunderstanding what the mpv is capable of doing

PoolStored said:

The filter is before the filter. Closing the MPV on the filter will not stop water from pouring out the pump basket if you open it.

If you have a valve (I recommend a diverter) before the filter you will be fine. A diverter before the return, not after the pump before the filter, would be better to totally isolate your filter and pump would be best.

If you have one after the pump, before the filter, if you have to clean the filter or replace sand, you cannot stop the flow through the filter.

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Okay yea that makes sense.
I've cancelled the order for the ball and got 2 Pentair diverters on order.

You're recommending 3 though, basically skimmer > pipe > valve #1 > pump > pipe > valve #2 > filter > pipe > valve #3 > return.
Am I getting it correct?

PoolStored said:

Let's call @Mdragger88 and @zea3 and see what they think...

Putting a third valve #2 between pump and filter would isolate the pump, allowing you to clear the basket. However, if the MPV has a "closed" position, this would be the same. If the new filter has a closed position, then you would only need the closed position on the MPV and on the skimmer (one diverter). That would isolate the pump.

The biggest risk to all of this is starting the pump the diverters/MPVs closed, dead heading the pump.

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Okay, I think we are finally on the same page. Sorry, 12am posting might have contributed to potential confusion.

Of course to clean the pump basket, I need to stop flow from both sides, i.e. from skimmer to pump (valve #1) and from return to the pump basket on the other side of the pump. For this I was going to use to use the "closed" position of the MPV, effectively stopping flow from return side.
I'm trying to get away with only necessary valves. To clean the basket, I do need valve #1 so I don't have to climb on the deck to put the stopper in the skimmer. And the close it from the other side via MPV.

If I do need to do bigger maintenance to the filter, then I don't mind climbing up and plugging the return with a stopper.

I think to keep it simple, valve #1 very necessary from convenience standpoint. Valve #2 likely overkill. Valve #3 would be nice, but also can be substituted with stopped. And of course being very careful not starting pump with valves closed/stoppers in place.

Unless the others suggest throwing valves #2 and #3 in anyway, I won't.

PoolStored said:

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Now I'm into the rabbit hole on figuring out equipment pad.
Wanted to get it all done this weekend, not sure if I can pour concrete by then. A simple pump and sand filter probably can't really sit on gravel ground like the cartridge system above, can it...

TinFoilHat said:

It would be wise to have your pump, filter and any other equipment sitting on a concrete pad. Then you don't have odd movements of the components causing plumbing issues.

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Mdragger88 said:

Even just a pad made out of pavers would be sufficient.

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Yeah I thought about it and thought about getting gravel, then laying pavers and all, and then I decided to get a pad poured. I've never poured concrete, and although I am pretty handy, I decided to get a pro for this. I got a contact from a neighbor, we poured about 3x4' pad this morning, it's curing right now. It did cost me $225 in labor and $40 in concrete, but next time I need to pour concrete I know what to do (even though plenty of good YT videos), so I'm good I think.

It is about 4" deep, so tomorrow after about 30hr cure the filter is getting sat on.
I also followed this forum's advice and got Mystic White II .49/20 (for love of god I hope it's not the wrong one).
I was wanting to save money, but in the end spent little extra to do it right.

The pump arrived yesterday and good god, it's a beast. Or my previous system was VERY undersized. Probably both.

PoolStored said:

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phonedave said:

That is basically my set up as well. A valve on the suction and a valve on the return. My valves are also unions. - Kaplan valves. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BQT1Q6F?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_2&th=1

As far as Kaplans being "Bronze Medal", I have a 27' ABG with one skimmer and one return, its not a 100,000 gallon lazy river. No need to let perfection get in the way of good enough. My Kaplan ball valves with union ends do just fine.

Actually I lied, I have three valves. One suction, one return, and one on the backwash port of my DE filter, because it is easier than a plug and was $30.

To clean my pump skimmer basket, I only have to close the suction side. My DE filter has a built in backflow preventor inside of it to prevent DE from flowing backwards into the pump.

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I had the Kaplan valves in my cart ready to arrive, but on very short notice changed it for the Pentair ones.
I keep being told ball valves are no bueno, so by the time I pay $40 for a 2" Kaplan, decided to pay $50 for a 2" Pentair I guess.

I have only single skimmer and single return. No other equipment or water features. This pump should hopefully run under very light load now.

I do have a question for I guess everyone to see if my plumbing makes sense and some questions:

1) I will keep a simple single 90deg directly to pump. Pump comes with unions, which is great. Would you for the return notch into the deck to be able to run virtually a single 90deg, or would you go from filter down under deck with 1x 90, up with another 90 and then 90deg to the wall of the return? I know / think you're not supposed to have more than 3x 90deg in one line right?
Nothing the deck shouldn't be an issue, but seems risky. I think the pad will make the MPV sit just tish too high to clear all decking without cutting or 90s. I don't want to do flex pipe anymore.


2) Unions - pump has union on basket side and on the filter side. If I do a valve between skimmer and basket (to clean out basket) and one between filter and return, I should be good? I might even get away with just one valve and closing MPV. That should stop water from pool to fill the basket from either direction, but a valve on return side would allow me to isolate all equipment without use of rubber stoppers (which I don't mind, really).

I guess I don't understand unions enough. My thought was it helps with removal of equipment. Pump might stay outside, not sure yet. In any case it has unions on both sides, so that's fine.
I don't think putting unions on each side of the Pentair valve makes sense though, does it? Because don't you glue in a pipe into the valve anyway, in which case union does really provide any value?
Or is it so it can be "spun" in place while you remove piping from the filter for example?

Please see below my plan and tell me if it is silly.
I think valve 1 (V1) on skimmer side is must. V2 on the return side is optional, I'd think (stoppers might do).
U1 and U2 are unions on the pump.
Do I need U3 and U4, i.e. unions on the filter? I think I need a 1-1/4" threaded fitting adapter into 2" PVC, but not sure if I want unions here too?

Mdragger88 said:

How do you plan to winterize? This decision will help you formulate your plans.
I remove all my plumbing and plug the returns with screw in plugs and leave the equipment outside fully drained, plugs out. The only thing I leave attached is the piece between the pump & filter.
I leave the valve under the skimmer open without anything attached to it after.

Yes, unions in the right places do a couple things:
Make it easy to remove a piece of equipment or plumbing without cutting
&
Allow you to screw on fittings without undoing whats down the line

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I don't generally winterize beyond drain.
But now that I got this nice new pump I will probably put that away.

I am now setting filter and I ran into a major concern.
I read the horror stories of the annoyance of sand washing into the pool.

On TFP recommendation I got Mystic White II, .49/20.
Please look at the picture of one of the laterals (Doheny's 24" sand filter). Does it not look like the sand is too small for them? Bunch immediately got embedded and you can see some from the pic of inside of the lateral that they're coming through, the grains.

Or is this by design?