If I could get it as fast, it'd be an easier sell. But I'm on a time crunch to get things sorted out. Also I'm annoyed that I'm having to do all this myself anyway after I paid extra to have "pros" install it, so at least I'd be covered under their warranty while I'm away for 6 months. But now when running at low speed it's evident that the small amount of air I had with the single speed is actually a bigger problem because it's nearly losing prime (basket is about half full at half speed, and nearly empty at low speed). But they didn't check that and now I have to figure that out as well in the next two weeks.
Pump motor is dead, now what!
- Thread starter olevelo
- Start date
VSPs all seem to allow the water to get low in the pot at lower speeds. Its normal. There are several thread on this blog about that. As long as it is moving water its not an issue.
I tried to look for previous threads and everything I found talked about the "bubble" getting bigger, but this is no bubble. And there are air bubbles coming out of my returns. Even at high speed now, but they get bigger and more of them the lower the speed...until the lowest. At the lowest speed, it's not losing prime, but it's not moving much water at all....can't even feel it at the return and not seeing much air bubble. That said, it's only at night in the dark when it's running at the lowest speed, since I can't control it right now, hence getting the automation working so I can troubleshoot more.
Sounds like a suction leak. Start at any union in front of the pump. If there isn't one, hold the pump with one hand and try to move the suction plumbing side-to-side with the other. There should be virtually zero movement of the fitting going into the pump.
There's lots of unions suction side! Which part of the problem of narrowing down the problem.
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Looking at the plumbing coming out of the pump I suspect two issues. First is that it is threaded in too far, they should never be all the way into a fitting but at least three thread should be showing. The one in front of the pump is probably done the same. That almost always results in a suction leak (and a leak at the outlet side) eventually. Also, normal PVC was used when it would have been better to use hi-temp unions, or at least CPVC nipples, a much better product.
Don't see any unions, but do see a lot of valves. I would suspect any of the ones in the pipes feeding the pump. Open them, clean the area where the very thin O ring sits for the lid, pull the stem out, clean it and its socket, lubricate the stem, install the O rings, wrap 2 wraps of Teflon tape around the O rings, lubricate the tape, reinstall. DO NOT use a power screwdriver to re-assemble. Tighten the screws slowly in a star pattern to evenly seat the lid without cracking it. It is very easy to strip a hole or, worse, crack a valve. It will be a little hard to get the stem back into the lid, but it will work.
It is better if you replace all the O rings in all those valves. You can get sets very inexpensively on Amazon. Just type in "Jandy valve O rings" and find some. It doesn't matter what valve they say they fit, all brands use the same O rings. You have a combination of Jandy and Hayward brand valves. You can get enough for all your valves plus 4 extra sets for about $12.00. Don't forget to use pool lube lightly on all O rings.
Thanks. There's not much I can do about the threaded fittings. I've never heard of using Teflon tape on o-rings? I'll see what I can do with these valves though.
Valves wear out at the stem. The lid socket where the O rings sit gets slightly larger, allowing either air to be pulled in or water to leak. Teflon tape fills the gap and seals the leak. That's what comes from 30+ years fixing these things. Or you can replace the valve lid at $20.00+ per lid.
Fittings can always be cut out and replaced, especially if they are leaking either air or water.
Update: the new board worked as advertised! The connectors I bought were a little wobbly so I was concerned but connection seems fine. After reboot on the OmniPL it recognized the HUA (my installers tried to say there wouldn't be one since it's 3rd party, but there absolutely is), and speed adjustments all worked fine, and I see some diagnostic data on the Hayward app.
As for the suction leak, I fixed that too...partially at least. After taking the handles off of the two drains (the only manual handles I have), I found that a bit of water squirted out of the main drain stem when the pump turned off. It was quite obvious, but not enough to be visible when the handle was on. So I replaced the o-rings on it first (one of the stem rings was completely ripped in half!), and I thought I was done then! (Well, in retrospect, I probably was, but we'll get to that). Pump immediately filled up with little to no air! I was pretty satisfied.
But then I turned it to the cleaner (which closes the main drain and skimmer almost all the way...I set it so that it wasn't cavitating so bad) and it still got a fair amount of air. So I decided to do that valve next. It seemed in pretty good condition but replaced them all anyway. But then after turning it back on, it seemed like I was getting slightly more air in normal config than before! Now, maybe my earlier test wasn't long enough, or I felt it was better than it was, but either way this was pretty frustrating. So I said screw it and replaced the other 2 valves' orings as well (plus one on the pressure side that had been visibly leaking for awhile when turned one way). And not much difference in performance.
So now in "normal" mode (main drain and skimmer full open, spa drain and cleaner off), I have just a small amount of air. But every 20-30 seconds there's like a rush of air through the basket and then it has to recover, but before it can completely purge it, another rush happens! I took some videos but they're too big to upmlad. And when I reduce the speed of the motor, it only gets an air bubble about the size of half the lid handle, and doesn't seem to grow (at least over the 10-15 minutes I ran it), which it did quickly before, but I don't get that air rush effect. And when I turn it off everything holds position. But when I switch to the cleaner I start getting air, unless I only move it to where the cleaner barely moves. I assume it's because it can't draw enough water from that single pipe versus the two drains...but then also, the air has to come from somewhere?! Anyway I set the valve so that it's just a small drop-off in pressure and a minimal amount of air, and it maintains good speed on the cleaner.
I did some other experiments and found that if I open the spa drain partially, or I close either the skimmer or main drain about 1/4 to 1/2 way, I can get a full basket with no air, and none of the weird rushing. So maybe the answer is to just partially close the drain? Though that's not quite as effective as opening the spa (giving it a bigger water source). Or maybe I'm just overthinking it all and need to not worry about it!
I still have one other problem which is a small leak on the pressure outlet on the pump, and same thing on my waterfall pump (tho worse because it actually shoots water out at high speed). I tried using some silicon to seal it but of course being on the pressure side it just pops it loose. So trying to get the maintenance folks out because I don't have the gear or knowledge to redo pipe fittings.
"Big rush of air" every 20-30 seconds sounds like a stuck weir, in the "up" position. Basket is full, pump starts moving water, skimmer empties because the weir is blocking the opening, pump stops pumping water as there is little in the suction plumbing, water again fills the skimmer around the door, pump starts pulling and the process repeats until the door is freed. Shutting, or partially shutting, the skimmer will cause the pump to pull from the main drain as well.
Opening the spa suction will cause problems as it is very difficult to balance flow out of and in to the spa without draining it.
Hmm, interesting thought on the skimmer. I'm going out of town for a few days tomorrow so I'll check it out when I get back. If that's the case, is there any fix for it? Also, why does it not happen when making those other adjustments? Just because it's able to pull more water from elsewhere?
As for opening the spa suction, I already have the return set to partially open so it always has a small overflow, keeping the surface water clear. Though maybe I need to adjust it now, because it's a much bigger spillover now with the pump working more properly. But then that said, I won't be running it on full speed except a couple hours a day now, when the cleaner is running. (I still need to work out a new runtime schedule since I never had a VSP on this pool.)
Usually, the weir gets stuck by having debris caught between it and the skimmer wall, especially if it is an OEM weir. If it is a replacement, spring-loaded, weir, as many are, it may have moved a bit and can't swing freely.
Giving the pump a different way to get water minimizes, or eliminates, the issue.
Having the suction closed but the return open a bit to the spa is the "usual" way of setting up a pool. It keeps fresh, chlorinated and filtered water going into the spa and the overflow helps keep it clean.
Thanks. It shouldn't have any debris as I have an enclosure so next to nothing in the way of floating debris. I'll check it out when I get back tho.
The spillover seemed like a good idea to me. And it was setup that way I bought it. But I had also read about pH issues with it, and I battle high pH as it is, so didn't want to set it too high.
I ended up getting the repair guy to fix the pressure side leaks (on both the main pump and the waterfall pump). He had to use unions and it looks like a Frankenstein but whatever works! Oddly, the pump is now filling without any air at all on normal settings. Still a small drop-off when using the suction. I don't know if the pressure side leak affected it, or it also appears the water level dropped a little bit which maybe affected the weir? It was kind of high before. Anyway, I'm in pretty good shape now!
I finally got the new motor installed (by a local company...spent more on the motor and install because I'm about to be gone for 6 months so need the peace of mind it's done right and have warranty support), but automation isn't working. They had never installed one of these with automation. In the end called customer service who directed me to a regional guy, and he said I got old stock that doesn't have the automation.Supposedly he's sending me a new board and it's supposed to be a pretty easy swap. But apparently there's no way of knowing it's an older motor other than the manual it comes with not talking about Schedule D (my installers had printed out a current manual that does).
Do you happen to have contact info for the regional support person that sent the board? If so could you PM it to me? I also got one of the old ones without automation and have been waiting for the new boards to come out.