Houston area -- Requesting design and cost feedback

SpringTXPool2023 · May 29, 2023

Hello TFP!

We are looking for some general advice and an overall sanity check (pricing / contract review) before moving forward with our project. We've gotten quotes from 5 PB's between last summer and now. Four were in the same general range (~$85K), and one was $20K less (not going with them). We are close to getting started with one (of the final 4) that some friends used (along with other references in the area).

Here's what we have to work with --

Here's the design we've currently settled on --

> ~~Spreadsheet~~ PDF attached with PB spec's and cost details (recreated from PB's form), along with PB's standard contract terms.

> I can update the post with the details in text format if that's preferred. I was hoping the actual spreadsheet could be attached.

*Note: The landscaping in the last rendering is not included. Just artistic conception of what could be done in that back area (utility easement).

We'd appreciate any input / suggestions on --

General layout given the space and existing patio
- Note that we have an additional 20' x 30' grass area on the right side of the house (will remain as-is).
Equipment as spec'd by PB
Tanning ledge (seems like a nice idea, but have noticed a fair number of folks here saying they'd nix it if they had a do-over)
Decking
- Initially stamped concrete
- Now opting for travertine pavers with polymeric sand base (add $4,800)
  - Have read that the sand can be problematic (shifting, requires annual cleaning / refresh??)
  - ~~May start with the stamped concrete, and add pavers on top of that in 1-2 years?~~
Integrated spa vs standalone (and if standalone, best location?)
- Spa was originally pushed back closer to the house.
- We chose to move it forward into the pool area, to keep the rectangular perimeter.
- Looks a bit odd with the wall going into the tanning ledge / stairs
  - ... but prefer not to shrink the 7.5' x 7.5' usable space
Sport pool layout
- Considering 2 steps from tanning ledge down to 3.5 or 4' ... slope to 6' ... back up to 4.5'
- The dip in the middle is supposedly good for volleyball, though not sure we understand the rationalization?
- May want to have consistent depth of 4.5 to 5'
- We have 1 teenage son. (5' should be sufficient for cannonballs?)
- No real need for a "deep end", which is typically only 7' per PB's. (Still not deep enough for diving, per the Red Cross recommendation of 9'.)
Chiller recommended?
- Will be in direct sunlight all day. Will likely add 1-2 sail coverings. PB says running water features at night is helpful and may negate the benefit of a chiller. (I've seen various threads here that seem to confirm that.) Regardless, will leave space on the equipment pad.
Turf on left side of patio, between deck and fence
- This is a recent consideration (+ $3K), to avoid having a single strip of grass (roughly 9' x 45') on that side
- Would be a thinner, cooler turf that is used for putting greens, with holes added where we'd like
- Turf to the corner of the house (22' x 9'), then gravel for the rest of that ~25' run along the side of the house
  - Could turf the entire run, but it's costly and likely wouldn't be used.

As for general costs, we understand that pricing has increased significantly over the past ~5 years, esp. with COVID, supply chain issues, and inflation -- and of course overall demand.

We found an older thread (2016 - 2018) that had various costs related to different layouts, sizes, and locations. This one (from 2020) would be somewhat similar to ours, but was roughly ~$25K less. And yet another (from 2020) that is similar and $5-10K more than what we're currently looking at. Obviously, there are many factors and considerations; it seems that our pricing is in the right ballpark and reasonable (although it's more than we anticipated spending).

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

-STP2023

pjt · May 29, 2023

SpringTXPool2023 said:
Tanning ledge

If you want to keep a ledge, I'd suggest moving it to the area close to your house next to the spa. That would create a swim lane along the long axis of your pool (adjusting the swimouts appropriately). Add a small step to facilitate swimming from the pool onto the shelf.

SpringTXPool2023 said:
Decking

I'd recommend getting the travertine now. It's a small upcharge, but it makes a big difference.

SpringTXPool2023 said:
Equipment as spec'd by PB

I'd ditch the pressure-side cleaner/equipment and get a robot. Make sure the SWG is rated for at least twice the volume of your pool. Make sure all the lights face away from the house/primary seating area. I would upsize the suction plumbing to 2.5". Use Jandy/Pentair diverter valves only. No ball valves whatsoever.

SpringTXPool2023 said:
3.5 or 4' ... slope to 6' ... back up to 4.5'

I'd recommend 4' for the shallow end. 6' is an inconvenient depth because it's too deep for people to stand, but too shallow for diving, etc.. I would suggest 5' or commit to a true deep end.

KevMo · May 29, 2023

SpringTXPool2023 said:
Decking

Initially stamped concrete

Now opting for travertine pavers with polymeric sand base (add $4,800)

Have read that the sand can be problematic (shifting, requires annual cleaning / refresh??)

May start with the stamped concrete, and add pavers on top of that in 1-2 years?

Did your PB give you a quote for travertine papers on concrete? The problem with having stamped concrete and adding pavers later is the height difference you would have between the deck and coping.

If you haven't already I would recommend you visit a pool with stamped concrete during the heat of the Texas sun and walk on it barefoot. Then splash some water on it and see if you like how slick it is. I am in the Houston area as well and we ultimately chose Fantsstico travertine pavers in a Versailles pattern on a concrete slab. It was more expensive but we love it. I think our deck and patio ended up somewhere around $16 / sq ft, but that also included demoing about 350 sq ft of existing tile on our covered patio.

Jimrahbe · May 29, 2023

STX,

I have stamped concrete and wish I had gone with pavers.

You will not be able to put pavers over the stamped concrete...

If you have never been in a gunite spa, then you need to try one before you buy one. Integrated spas are the most over-sold and under-used items in a pool build. My pull-it-out-of-my-rear guess is that only 50% of spa owners love them and use them. The other 50% no so much. If you have been in one and enjoyed it, them by all means get the spa. If you have never been in one, find a friend that has one and try it out and see what you think..

As a side note.. Spa with massive spillovers require a lot of flow. While they look great your pump will have to run at a pretty good speed to make the spillover work well.

I too, do not like pool without swimming lanes. In your drawing you can't swim wall to wall without hitting the stairs.

I see no automation in your notes.. You need to figure out how you want your pool to work before you even dig the hole. If the pool is not built and plumbed right, what you want it to do, may be impossible.

Make sure any salt system is rated for at least 2 x the volume of your pool.. As an example.. A 20K pool needs a 40K cell.

Thanks,

Jim R.

02slowride · May 30, 2023

It appears your payments are staged and heavily favor the builder getting income ahead of work. E.g. 10% due at contract signature and final is due morning of plaster. At that point, you still have fill, start-up, and any remaining or not-yet identified punchlist items. Bear in mind: if your doing a heater or SWG those are typically not to be turned on for 30 days after plaster. Think about how you will garner your builder's attention and prioritization to wrap up those items if they are fully paid.

No doubt your builder will be hesitant about a more equitable payment schedule. In contrast, you'll find comments on here about builders who are financially challenged, keeping prior projects/subcontractors "current" with your project's payments.

agjr85 · May 30, 2023

Quartzscapes is not PebbleTec equivalent. Should be Stone Scapes if they are doing like for like.
I would upgrade the drainage if their "deck drain" is the one that sits right at the edge of the house and pool decking. Area drains tied to the street pop up are ideal.
There is also no % left after plaster, so I would adjust the split so that they are paid until the pool is fully operational. Probably move some of that 40% to the end instead.

KevMo · May 30, 2023

I agree with the others on structuring some of the payments until after plaster. A good option for the customer us 10% on completion of the punch list, but some PB may balk at that. The lowest I would want to go is $5K 30 days after plaster and hope that $5K is enough to keep them engaged. On my build we landed at 5% plus any costs I added during the construction (e.g, additoonal 225 sq ft of deck) 45 days after plaster.That worked out to just under 10% of the original contract.

My PB was very flexible on the payments and any changes throughout the project, including covering the cost of tearing out the first firepit they built and rebuilding it because he did not like the way it turned out. I did not think about it when I started my build, but I am glad I was dealing directly with one of the owners. He didn't have to ask anybody for permission to do something different. I would not have had the same flexibility during the build to change some things at little to no cost if I was dealing with a PM who had a boss between him and the person able to make the final decision.

SpringTXPool2023 · May 30, 2023

Appreciate all the feedback and suggestions so far. Here are some replies --

Overall design and swim area ...

pjt said:
If you want to keep a ledge, I'd suggest moving it to the area close to your house next to the spa. That would create a swim lane along the long axis of your pool (adjusting the swimouts appropriately). Add a small step to facilitate swimming from the pool onto the shelf.

Man, we've struggled with the design over the past year, shifted things all around, and have staked-and-twined the actual layout in the yard. But one of the objectives here @ TFP is to get guidance from you guys on possibilities that we may have missed.

In an earlier design, we had the spa closer to the house, then thought it was "too close" and infringed on the deck space (making the patio area somewhat awkward), and liked the idea of keeping the spa within the main rectangular space (straight lines).

However, the POOL is the main attraction, and we definitely want to maximize that.

In the below layout (Powerpoint quickie), the white lines would be the water edge (swimmable space), whether left as-is ... or if (A) the spa was moved closer to the house (add 3'), and/or (B) the back wall was straight rather than recessed (add 2').

If we leave things as-is, the main body of the pool is 25' x 17'. (That's from the right edge of the spa to the right wall.) We *think* we'd be happy with that. Still, it leaves us with a 9.5' x 8' entry (between the tanning ledge and right edge of the spa) that is essentially "wasted space".

Decking ...

pjt said:
I'd recommend getting the travertine now. It's a small upcharge, but it makes a big difference.

Agreed, and that is our preference. As mentioned, we have some reservations about the polymeric sand base. Would love to get some reassurance that it holds up over the years with little to no maintenance required. Otherwise, thinking we'll want to pay extra to put it on a concrete base.

KevMo said:
Did your PB give you a quote for travertine papers on concrete? The problem with having stamped concrete and adding pavers later is the height difference you would have between the deck and coping.

No, but we'll be asking about it. Understand about the height difference between the deck and coping if we wanted to add it later. Yeah, scratch that thought.

agjr85 said:
I would upgrade the drainage if their "deck drain" is the one that sits right at the edge of the house and pool decking. Area drains tied to the street pop up are ideal.

Will confirm, but pretty sure there will be several in-deck drains (not sitting at edge of house / pool decking) that will "drain down to street".

Spa ...

Jimrahbe said:
If you have never been in a gunite spa, then you need to try one before you buy one. Integrated spas are the most over-sold and under-used items in a pool build. My pull-it-out-of-my-rear guess is that only 50% of spa owners love them and use them.

As a side note.. Spa with massive spillovers require a lot of flow. While they look great your pump will have to run at a pretty good speed to make the spillover work well.

Yeah, we're used to integrated / gunite spa's. (Never been in a "real" / standalone model.) So no problem there. We're part of that other 50%.

Removal from the layout would help solve our usable pool space issue, but we do enjoy them, and our thinking is that's something that can be used year-round.

Good point on the double-edge spillover in our design. Will ask PB about (A) the pump and (B) possibly closing the gap a bit.

Equipment ...

pjt said:
I'd ditch the pressure-side cleaner/equipment and get a robot. Make sure the SWG is rated for at least twice the volume of your pool. Make sure all the lights face away from the house/primary seating area. I would upsize the suction plumbing to 2.5". Use Jandy/Pentair diverter valves only. No ball valves whatsoever.

Will chat with PB about all that.

Jimrahbe said:
I see no automation in your notes.

Make sure any salt system is rated for at least 2 x the volume of your pool.. As an example.. A 20K pool needs a 40K cell.

I know PB has mentioned that the Hayward equipment will all be controllable from our phones, but will confirm. And if there are better options (I've seen a lot of IntelliCenter talk), we're not opposed to something else.

Will confirm that the SWG cell is rated for ~50K+.

Plaster Finish ...

agjr85 said:
Quartzscapes is not PebbleTec equivalent. Should be Stone Scapes if they are doing like for like.

That's my fault. I had added the note "QuartzScapes (NPT version of PebbleTec)" to my spreadsheet version of the PB's form. But understand it's not the same.

Payments / Staging ...

02slowride said:
It appears your payments are staged and heavily favor the builder getting income ahead of work. E.g. 10% due at contract signature and final is due morning of plaster. At that point, you still have fill, start-up, and any remaining or not-yet identified punchlist items. Bear in mind: if your doing a heater or SWG those are typically not to be turned on for 30 days after plaster. Think about how you will garner your builder's attention and prioritization to wrap up those items if they are fully paid.

Agree. PB has told me that it can be 20% on excavation and gunite days, which is a little better than what's currently in the contract. (Will get that updated.) But right, definitely want to hold at least 10% until after things are fully completed, including punchlist items. Will discuss further with PB.

KevMo said:
I agree with the others on structuring some of the payments until after plaster. A good option for the customer us 10% on completion of the punch list, but some PB may balk at that. The lowest I would want to go is $5K 30 days after plaster and hope that $5K is enough to keep them engaged.

Ditto above. Final 10% upon satisfactory completion should be a reasonable request.

Thanks all !!

ottoman11223 · May 30, 2023

Are you within city limits? That will be a big time and money factor.

I just built a pool - completed in late April - and the city required a lot. Builder had to hire an engineer to design drainage plan which city made them change multiple times.

I have a similar design but the tanning ledge is to the right of your spa. And the steps to the right of that. Honestly, the tanning ledge is great but you def don't want it too big.

Our builder recommended a shallow pool and we absoultely love it the way it is. No wasted deep end where no one hangs out.

SpringTXPool2023 · May 30, 2023

ottoman11223 said:
Are you within city limits? That will be a big time and money factor.

Thankfully, no.

ottoman11223 said:
I have a similar design but the tanning ledge is to the right of your spa. And the steps to the right of that. Honestly, the tanning ledge is great but you def don't want it too big.

Almost did that in the Powerpoint re-do / draft from earlier today. That could also work for us.

Our main challenge is the width limitation between the house, rear easement, and existing patio / column.

ottoman11223 said:
Our builder recommended a shallow pool and we absoultely love it the way it is. No wasted deep end where no one hangs out.

Yeah, we're definitely leaning that way. Regarding a "sport pool", we're wondering about having a slightly deeper mid-section (and also, WHY that is often done). If used for volleyball, guessing it's meant to be deeper below the net (and surrounding area) ... to keep people from spiking??

SpringTXPool2023 · Jun 4, 2023

Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. We are still looking for any further design input, along with opinions on the Hayward equipment and travertine pavers (on a polymeric sand base).

For the layout, we agree with previous feedback on getting the most usable pool / swimming space ... but aren't sure about the best way to maximize that. If we were to move or omit the tanning ledge -- and nudge the spa a few feet closer to the house -- that would be one way to open things up.

To quote myself ...

SpringTXPool2023 said:
In the below layout (Powerpoint quickie), the white lines would be the water edge (swimmable space), whether left as-is ... or if (A) the spa was moved closer to the house (add 3'), and/or (B) the back wall was straight rather than recessed (add 2').

SpringTXPool2023 said:
If we leave things as-is, the main body of the pool is 25' x 17'. (That's from the right edge of the spa to the right wall.) We *think* we'd be happy with that. Still, it leaves us with a 9.5' x 8' entry (between the tanning ledge and right edge of the spa) that is essentially "wasted space".

Our current quote includes Hayward equipment. For automation, we're told it will be controllable from our phones. Can any Hayward folks confirm that, or provide any general feedback on Hayward products (specifically the ones included in our quote)? If there are "better" equipment options, we're not opposed to changes / upgrades.

Regarding the travertine paver decking (with polymeric sand base), we're concerned about the likelihood of shifting, sinking, ant issues (have read about some of that here), and general / ongoing maintenance. If anyone with this decking can provide any reassurance that it should hold up for 5+ years with little to no upkeep (or problems), we'd love to hear it. Otherwise, we'll likely pay extra for a concrete base.

Thanks,
STP2023

02slowride · Jun 4, 2023

We went with pavers over a sand base. While our build is only 1 yr old, I can not speak to long term conditions - it is holding up nicely.

I would offer the following for your consideration. Initially, we were set on Travertine pavers. However, our builder suggested we consider looking at a Belgard product (Travertino pavers). They are man-made and come in 4 different shades. They are not as smooth as Travertine, but in fact I am glad we did the Travertino for the deck. Since our coping is Travertine, I have a great comparison and can confidently state that the Travertino provides significantly better traction, especially when wet with various flip-flop, Croc or sandal footwear. It is also more grippy with bare-feet. The product also has a cool-touch construction as you find with real travertine so you don't have to remedy for that as you might with a poured concrete deck.

As for installation, our builder dug ~4-6" below the finished surface and built up with first a layer of sharp sand, then stabilized sand (which is a sand/cement product but without water). This is packed in place prior to installation of the pavers. Once the decking is in place then polymeric sand is swept between the paver edges. While we do not have a requirement for impervious cover, I felt that approach has two potential benefits: 1) the ability to absorb some watershed, 2) flexibility to access under decking repair (e.g. plumbing) without having to breakout and dig through poured concrete/rebar base and then patch in order to reinstall. From a costing perspective, if they are doing the prep right for a sand base, there was not a significant difference in the two from a finished $/sq ft.

pjt · Jun 4, 2023

SpringTXPool2023 said:
If there are "better" equipment options, we're not opposed to changes / upgrades.

Does your PB also use Pentair? I would use it over Hayward.

SpringTXPool2023 said:
If anyone with this decking can provide any reassurance that it should hold up for 5+ years with little to no upkeep (or problems), we'd love to hear it.

I have travertine over stabilized sand. Almost three years old and looks like it was laid yesterday. If it doesn't break your budget, look at porcelain pavers (our neighbors have it and it's excellent).

bcbbab · Jun 5, 2023

I would move the hot tub out at least enough to not have it hang over the tan ledge area. They mention cartridge filter but no size. Get at minimum a 525. They mention heater but no size. Get a minimum 400K. You have a salt system, make sure they seal the coping. If you go paver decking, I would seal it too! Be prepared to seal these regularly, at least once to twice per year. Salt is corrosive. In the business and this price is extremely cheap. As long as you are comfortable with the builder, move the spa out more.

HermanTX · Jun 5, 2023

SpringTXPool2023 said:
Yeah, we're definitely leaning that way. Regarding a "sport pool", we're wondering about having a slightly deeper mid-section (and also, WHY that is often done). If used for volleyball, guessing it's meant to be deeper below the net (and surrounding area) ... to keep people from spiking??

This is somewhat dependent on family needs. If you have kids and they do a cannonball into the pool, you don’t want it all at 4 to 4.5ft. If they like to dive down to retrieve items as part of a game, then you want something at least 5.5ft. I have used a pool that was all 1 depth - right at 4.5ft. Great for just floating around and you can do swimming laps. Also had a deep pool with diving board - lots of fun for kids and young adults (with or without a diving board). My current pool is what is called a sport pool. It is 5.5 ft in middle and each end is 4-4.5 ft. Have never put up a volleyball net. Kids like the deep part to show their skills to retrieve pool game items. Also for Marco Polo to escape In deeper water.
And remember kids grow - what is suitable today is not so needed in 5 years. I personally do not like Baja shelf because while initially great for a 1 year old they grow up and want to be fully in the water. No one in my family lounges on a lounge chair on the Baja shelf so we have found little need for it and the cost is just about the same for any other part of your pool when you consider plaster, tile, coping etc.

So assess your family size and requirements for both now and in next 5-10 years.

Grecian pool TX · Jul 12, 2023

May I ask you for the name of your PB please? We are in Sugar land and looking to put in a similar size pool, spa.

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Houston area -- Requesting design and cost feedback

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