Quick question for replacement of CBs with GFCI

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AcesUp

AcesUp

Member
Aug 19, 2008
18
Atlanta
Pool Size
20000
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Upon (thankful) feedback on this forum, I am replacing all of my CB's with GFCI's. I am replacing my 2-pole with a Pentair 20 AMP GCFI and all my 20 amp single CBs with 15 Amp GFCIs (Siemens QF115A SIEQF115A).

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I'd like to get confirmation that the pig tail should be attached to what I believe is the neutral bar (red arrow in picture). I also assume that the lack of a neutral wire for the new CBs does not matter. I will just wire the hots and attach the pig tail to the neutral bar labeled in the picture.

Thanks again for the help!

My pump is finally back to normal and running - now to make it safer.
 

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AcesUp said:
Upon (thankful) feedback on this forum, I am replacing all of my CB's with GFCI's. I am replacing my 2-pole with a Pentair 20 AMP GCFI and all my 20 amp single CBs with 15 Amp GFCIs (Siemens QF115A SIEQF115A).

​

I'd like to get confirmation that the pig tail should be attached to what I believe is the neutral bar (red arrow in picture).
Click to expand...

That is correct
AcesUp said:
I also assume that the lack of a neutral wire for the new CBs does not matter. I will just wire the hots and attach the pig tail to the neutral bar labeled in the picture.
Click to expand...

That is incorrect.

For all 120V circuits that have a neutral line currently connected to the neutral bus you need to identify the white wire and move it to the neutral screw on the GFCI CB for it to work.

Neutral lines from the device on GFCI circuits need to be routed through the GFCI CB. Then the GFCI pig tail connects to the neutral bar.
 
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AcesUp said:
There are no existing neutrals connections to the 120V CBs.
Click to expand...
Yes there are.

I see at least three. Two connected to the neutral bus and one pigtailed.

With three 120V CBs you will have at least 3 neutrals to complete the circuits.
 
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OK, now I'm confused.

The 120v CBs do not have and neutral connections now. The three neutrals on the bus: two go to external outlets that are GFCI; and one to the control panel.

With the new 120v GFCI CBs, the hot would land on the breaker and the pig tail would be connected to the bus with the existing three neutrals. There would be no neutral wires that would land on the new GFCIs 120v.

Is that correct?

Thanks again!
 

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No, that is not correct.

A 120V circuit has the electrical current running from the CB to the device then back through the neutral wire to complete the circuit.

The complete circuit must run through the GFCI CB.

A GFCI CB has a connection for the neutral that a regular CB does not have.

If you don’t understand that get someone who does to help you.

You need to identify the neutral that is for the circuit you are installing the GFCI CB for.
 
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Trying to make out your wiring (and it doesn't help that all the hots are red), what are the three 15 amp CB used for?
1. I can see you have one 20amp 2 pole for the pool pump and jumpering to Aux 1, what is on aux 1? The pump will have no neutral but aux 1 may which would need to land on the neutral of the gfci CB.
2. The top 15amp 1 pole cb appears to go to the control panel. It appears hot and neutral are reversed (black is going to white and landing on the neutral bar, white to red and going to the breaker) if swapping this to gfci, you'll want to swap those then land the white on the neutral load screw of the cb, pigtail from the breaker to the neutral bar.
3. Cant tell what this feeds?
4. this 15 amp single pole breaker looks like it feeds the gfci outlet on the panel, then the load from that appears to feed the light relay/light. Since everything post outlet is protected by the gfci outlet, no need to swap this one to GFCI

It also appears you are using 12/2 ufb for the pump - not sure this is appropriate use given that i assume it is above ground and UV exposed but at a min you need to wrap the white wire with black tape to indicate it is being used as a hot.
What are the disconnected red wires going to?
 
Only the CB for the pump and the gas heater need to be GFCI.

That is probably the 240V CB and one of the 120V CBs. But it is not clear if the gas heater is 120V or 240v.
 
The pool pump may be wired without a neutral. Some pumps only need two hots and a ground. You only need a neutral line if the equipment you are powering needs a 120V reference. This may be an old pump that was built before GFCI was required. Looking at the wiring going Filter Pump Relay, it looks like they pulled 2-wire Romex from the pump to the automation panel. I don’t see any ground wire either.

This link may help -

240v GFCI work with no neutral ??

Will all 240v GFCI breakers work without a neutral. I inspected a hot tub the other day that only required 2 phases and a ground to operate.I looked at the installation manual and in it was a wiring diagram that showed the neutral from the panel brought out to the breaker (no bonding)on the...
forums.mikeholt.com
 
Last edited:
Ahultin said:
Trying to make out your wiring (and it doesn't help that all the hots are red), what are the three 15 amp CB used for?
1. I can see you have one 20amp 2 pole for the pool pump and jumpering to Aux 1, what is on aux 1? The pump will have no neutral but aux 1 may which would need to land on the neutral of the gfci CB.
2. The top 15amp 1 pole cb appears to go to the control panel. It appears hot and neutral are reversed (black is going to white and landing on the neutral bar, white to red and going to the breaker) if swapping this to gfci, you'll want to swap those then land the white on the neutral load screw of the cb, pigtail from the breaker to the neutral bar.
3. Cant tell what this feeds?
4. this 15 amp single pole breaker looks like it feeds the gfci outlet on the panel, then the load from that appears to feed the light relay/light. Since everything post outlet is protected by the gfci outlet, no need to swap this one to GFCI

It also appears you are using 12/2 ufb for the pump - not sure this is appropriate use given that i assume it is above ground and UV exposed but at a min you need to wrap the white wire with black tape to indicate it is being used as a hot.
What are the disconnected red wires going to?
Click to expand...

Thanks.

1. The are used in this order:
Top for the control panel.
Second for external GFCI outlets and lights.
Third to a different GFCI outlet and outdoor ceiling fan under a deck.
2. OK, that make sense. Basically move the existing conductor off neutrals neutral bar and into the CB.
3. Outlet and fan.
4. This appears to be the case.

Sorry, that is temporary. I was testing the continuity of the existing red conductors.
 

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JoyfulNoise said:
The pool pump may be wired without a neutral. Some pumps only need two hots and a ground. You only need a neutral line if the equipment you are powering needs a 120V reference. This may be an old pump that was built before GFCI was required. Looking at the wiring going Filter Pump Relay, it looks like they pulled 2-wire Romex from the pump to the automation panel. I don’t see any ground wire either.

This link may help -

240v GFCI work with no neutral ??

Will all 240v GFCI breakers work without a neutral. I inspected a hot tub the other day that only required 2 phases and a ground to operate.I looked at the installation manual and in it was a wiring diagram that showed the neutral from the panel brought out to the breaker (no bonding)on the...
forums.mikeholt.com
Click to expand...

This is indeed the case. It's two hots and a ground. Thanks for the link.
 
AcesUp said:
Thanks.

1. The are used in this order:
Top for the control panel.
Second for external GFCI outlets and lights.
Third to a different GFCI outlet and outdoor ceiling fan under a deck.
2. OK, that make sense. Basically move the existing conductor off neutrals neutral bar and into the CB.
3. Outlet and fan.
4. This appears to be the case.

Sorry, that is temporary. I was testing the continuity of the existing red conductors.
Click to expand...
So assuming the middle breaker on the right goes to the gfci outlet line side, then from there the load side feeds the fan etc, you really shouldnt need to replace any of the single pole breakers with gfci as the two outlet circuits are protected by the gfci outlets amd I dont believe the control panel requires gfci protection.
What is on aux 1? It is being fed off of the pump relay so if it has a neutral that neutral needs to be moved to the pump breaker.
 
Ahultin said:
So assuming the middle breaker on the right goes to the gfci outlet line side, then from there the load side feeds the fan etc, you really shouldnt need to replace any of the single pole breakers with gfci as the two outlet circuits are protected by the gfci outlets amd I dont believe the control panel requires gfci protection.
What is on aux 1? It is being fed off of the pump relay so if it has a neutral that neutral needs to be moved to the pump breaker.
Click to expand...
The booster pump for the Polaris is on Aux1 and is just like the pump - 2 hots and a ground.

Thanks again for help!
 
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As chance would have it, I had a neighbor who had an electrician doing work and he took a quick look and confirmed exactly what you said @Ahultin

Thanks!
 
Single pole (typically 120V) GFCI circuit breakers that only attach to the hot bus bars will have a white wire that gets connected to you neutral bus bar. The the wires from your load (Hot and neutral) will attached to the breaker.

Double pole (typically 240V) GFCI circuit breakers that only attach to the hot bus bars may have a white wire that gets connected to you neutral bus bar. The the wires from your load (Hots and neutral) will attached to the breaker. If your load does not a neutral that is okay. Some double pole (240V) GFCI circuit breakers do not have a neutral wire, these are intended to only being used with loads that don't have a neutral.

Typically the flow of current on 240v circuits the current in each phase (typically there are two 120v phases 180° out of phase) and flow back to the breaker on the other phase. The GFCI looks at the current flowing out and it needs to match that current returning. On 240V circuits with a neutral wire, if the current is not balanced between the phases, the difference flows back on the neutral. In this case if you load has 240V and 120V loads it's likely the current on each phase is not going to be balanced. If a double pole GFCI breaker w/o a neutral is used in this scenario it will likely trip when ever a 120v load is present.

And just for reference there are some circuit breaker panels that do not have a Neutral bus bar that neutral wires get attached to. The breaker is makes the hot and neutral connection and the hot and neutral load wires connect to the breaker. The only bus bar where wire connect is for grounds in these panels.
 
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More information for the interested:


Q. I have a 240-volt electric job-site heater, which is required by the NEC to be GFCI protected. Will a 120/240 two-pole GFCI breaker provide protection for a 240-volt load with no neutral? In what situations would a 120/240 two-pole GFCI breaker be recommended?

A. Master electrician Rex Cauldwell responds: Some equipment, including some spas, are pure 240-volt, with no neutral. Most everything else is both 120- and 240-volt. It doesn't make any difference if the load is pure 240-volt (with two hots and no neutral) or 120/240-volt (with two hots and a neutral) — you use the same double-pole GFCI breaker. You even install it the same. Wire both hot conductors to the breaker and the breaker pigtail to the neutral bus. There will be no connection to the breaker neutral, so just ignore it.

The way the breaker works is via "vector addition." It sums the current of the load and uses that as a reference as the current leaves one leg of the breaker. In theory, the current coming back should be the same. If it is not, the breaker opens. The vector addition will not work if the pigtail is not connected.
 
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