duraleigh

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Apr 1, 2007
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I am starting this thread and I know nothing about the subject! Over a period of time. I have seen varying opinions on enzymes as a cleaning agent for oils in pool water.

I am pulling one of 1poolman1's post into this thread. He is a proponent and I would like some input from anyone else........for it or against it. I don't care just want to shine a light on the subject
 
Rather than move his post, I am simply going to copy it here so the context of the other thread doesn't change.

From 1poolman1
Unless you're taking care of a commercial pool where an irritated tenant decided to pour his used motor oil into the largest pool (75,000 gallons) in the middle of a California drought. A couple of gallons of Natural Chemistry pool enzyme had the water cleaned in just about two weeks. Even took most of it off the tile.
If you've never needed it, you don't know the benefit. Have only ever seen it needed in 2 residential, high-use, pools. But it works.
So, what's your take on the use of enzymes?
 
Oil (and stains) are one of those few times Pool Perfect and Pool First Aid have been recommended. Below are just a few of many discussions. I would first try the absorbent mats, but if it was a bad spill I have no issues trying one of those products.





 
^^^^ +1. * when applicable.

We all know the pool store will use a limited use product for a broad range of cures. That's not the enzymes fault that they're overhyped for 32 other things they can't do. That's Leslie's fault.
 
Let me start by sharing the technical, chemistry definition of an "enzyme" -

An enzyme is a protein based, organic macromolecule (long chains of folded amino acids and sometimes metal ions) that is a catalyst for various biochemical reactions. In other words, it is something that increases the rate at which a chemical reaction will occur.

Enzymes come in different types depending on what they do, and this list just names but a few -

Proteases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of proteins into smaller amino acid blocks OR into individual amino acids. An example of a protease is the chemical compound pepsin found inside the stomachs of human beings. Pepsin helps to dissolve and degrade protein from the meats we consume into smaller chains of amino acids so that other enzymes in our intestines can break that down further into individual amino acids that our body absorbs.

Lipases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of fatty acids and oils into their various sub compounds. Lipases help our bodies to breakdown fats into smaller, shorter chain organic molecules that are more easily absorbed and turned into the energy sources and building blocks our bodies needs.

Amylases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of starch and sugar molecules into smaller subunits or break up the sugar molecules altogether. Glycolysis is the conversion of sugars into pyruvate and it is an enzyme-driven process that releases the energy needed for cellular life. Without certain amylases, life would not exist.

The above is just a very generalized description and there is a ton more detail to the science of enzymes as well as variations in the types of enzyme classes. It is a brach of chemistry and biochemistry that is super-complicated and for which there is no end of detail a person can get caught up studying.

But, with all complex things, oversimplifications are bound to happen and this is where I have deep reservations about the use of anything called an "enzyme" in a swimming pool. Unless a manufacturer is willing to divulge exactly what it is they are using, then the truth is that we have no idea what we are putting in the pool and we are going completely on faith that it will work as the manufacturer intended or wishful thinking, or the "Placebo Effect"....

Would any of you trust your children to the care of the pool industry??

Also, enzymes generally only work under very specific conditions where the pH is in the right range and there is sufficient oxidizer (dissolved O2) present for the reactions to take place. For example, the pepsin I mentioned above as an example of a protease ... it ONLY works if the pH is below 2.0 which, inside your stomach full of hydrochloric acid, is fine. But if you mix up pepsin in a container of water and throw a chunk of beef into it, nothing will happen. Many enzymes not only require the environment to be correct (pH, temperature, oxygen, etc) BUT ALSO require a coenzyme or other organic or inorganic compounds, sometimes called co-factors, in order for them to work. So, if the coenzyme is not present, the the enzyme itself does nothing at all.

So here's my feeling on the subject matter - you show me a scientifically peer-review study published in a mainstream scientific journal where the authors investigate the use of enzymes IN POOL WATER to control contamination, and I'll happily read that paper and accept the conclusions.

Guys, I don't know how to say this any other way -

THE PLURAL OF ANECDOTE IS NOT DATA!

I don't care how many people swear that their cousin Louie's step sister's neighbor has a pool guy who's buddy swears that his boss told him that the sales guy from the distributor had a sister who used the stuff and it worked like MAGIC. If you can't study it using the scientific method, then it's just old wive's tales. Snake-oil salesmen made lots of money, and left lots of victims, back in the day ...
 
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As another “it very likely doesn’t work” point of view from a different angle, both wastewater and oil / gas industries have need to remove oil from water and “polish” the water of any oil. They don’t use enzymes.
 
Let me start by sharing the technical, chemistry definition of an "enzyme" -

An enzyme is a protein based, organic macromolecule (long chains of folded amino acids and sometimes metal ions) that is a catalyst for various biochemical reactions. In other words, it is something that increases the rate at which a chemical reaction will occur.

Enzymes come in different types depending on what they do, and this list just names but a few -

Proteases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of proteins into smaller amino acid blocks OR into individual amino acids. An example of a protease is the chemical compound pepsin found inside the stomachs of human beings. Pepsin helps to dissolve and degrade protein from the meats we consume into smaller chains of amino acids so that other enzymes in our intestines can break that down further into individual amino acids that our body absorbs.

Lipases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of fatty acids and oils into their various sub compounds. Lipases help our bodies to breakdown fats into smaller, shorter chain organic molecules that are more easily absorbed and turned into the energy sources and building blocks our bodies needs.

Amylases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of starch and sugar molecules into smaller subunits or break up the sugar molecules altogether. Glycolysis is the conversion of sugars into pyruvate and it is an enzyme-driven process that releases the energy needed for cellular life. Without certain amylases, life would not exist.

The above is just a very generalized description and there is a ton more detail to the science of enzymes as well as variations in the types of enzyme classes. It is a brach of chemistry and biochemistry that is super-complicated and for which there is no end of detail a person can get caught up studying.

But, with all complex things, oversimplifications are bound to happen and this is where I have deep reservations about the use of anything called an "enzyme" in a swimming pool. Unless a manufacturer is willing to divulge exactly what it is they are using, then the truth is that we have no idea what we are putting in the pool and we are going completely on faith that it will work as the manufacturer intended or wishful thinking, or the "Placebo Effect"....

Would any of you trust your children to the care of the pool industry??

Also, enzymes generally only work under very specific conditions where the pH is in the right range and there is sufficient oxidizer (dissolved O2) present for the reactions to take place. For example, the pepsin I mentioned above as an example of a protease ... it ONLY works if the pH is below 2.0 which, inside your stomach full of hydrochloric acid, is fine. But if you mix up pepsin in a container of water and throw a chunk of beef into it, nothing will happen. Many enzymes not only require the environment to be correct (pH, temperature, oxygen, etc) BUT ALSO require a coenzyme or other organic or inorganic compounds, sometimes called co-factors, in order for them to work. So, if the coenzyme is not present, the the enzyme itself does nothing at all.

So here's my feeling on the subject matter - you show me a scientifically peer-review study published in a mainstream scientific journal where the authors investigate the use of enzymes IN POOL WATER to control contamination, and I'll happily read that paper and accept the conclusions.

Guys, I don't know how to say this any other way -

THE PLURAL OF ANECDOTE IS NOT DATA!

I don't care how many people swear that their cousin Louie's step sister's neighbor has a pool guy who's buddy swears that his boss told him that the sales guy from the distributor had a sister who used the stuff and it worked like MAGIC. If you can't study it using the scientific method, then it's just old wive's tales. Snake-oil salesmen made lots of money, and left lots of victims, back in the day ...
Only responding because I was mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

By this definition, the entire purpose and benefit of this forum is suspect. Haven't yet seen a scientific, peer-reviewed article in a mainstream scientific, or pool industry related (I read at least three), journal that recommends the TFP method of pool care, and yet, because of a plurality of positive reviews, all anecdotal, it is highly touted here as the best way of pool care. It works, yes, but where is the DATA by the above definition?

Pentair is almost universally recommended here? However, where is the DATA? I don't believe you can have it both ways. Having used/sold every brand of equipment available to me (which is all the major manufacturers) I wholeheartedly agree that Pentair is very good stuff. I don't care to sell it (but have many times) because it is not as user friendly to the average pool owner as other brands, and I'm the one who has to field the call when they can't figure it out. That's my experience, not based on anyone else's opinion, but from actual use in the field, where the real work is done.

A bunch of scientific names and phrases, definitions, etc. used to sway ones into NOT trying a product seems to serve what purpose? To save money? Pool enzymes (or whatever you want to call them, even magic if you wish) are not that expensive, are FDA approved, NSF approved for use in occupied SWIMMING pools, not waste-water treatment facilities, and from my experience, they work when NEEDED. I have no stock in any pool chemical company, make no money recommending it to someone in another state or country. I have no ulterior motive, no cousin Louie with a step sister etc. I have seen the result. Its just an option that one might consider, just like, "Should I get Jandy or Pentair or Hayward? What do you recommend, and why?"

Would you trust your kids to the pool industry? You do everyday that you allow them to swim in your pool. You trust the pool industry to make a pump that won't leak electricity, a pool light, a pool transformer, etc. that won't leak electricity, into the water and cause harm. You trust them to make safer suction covers. You trust that very expensive gas appliance that mixes explosive fuel, flame, electricity, and your family to do no harm and heat the water so that it is a pleasant experience. Generally, they sit right outside someone's bedroom.
 
I have seen the result. Its just an option that one might consider, just like, "Should I get Jandy or Pentair or Hayward? What do you recommend, and why?"
Like you said tho, you saw it be effective twice in your storied career due to the rarity of the need for it. You could have called heads/tails successfully twice as well.

Even in the 5 or so times it appeared to be helpful here, was it really ? We just don't know.

Now that Matt points it out, for such a broad term as 'enzymes', we might as well be sending folks to the pool store for 'sanitizer'. They could come home with Baqua or Bromine because we didn't have a specific product that we sent them for, within the 'sanitizer' realm.
 
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Like you said tho, you saw it be effective twice in your storied career due to the rarity of the need for it. You could have called heads/tails successfully twice as well.

Even in the 5 or so times it appeared to be helpful here, was it really ? We just don't know.

Now that Matt points it out, for such a broad term as 'enzymes', we might as well be sending folks to the pool store for 'sanitizer'. They could come home with Baqua or Bromine because we didn't have a specific product that we sent them for, within the 'sanitize

Like you said tho, you saw it be effective twice in your storied career due to the rarity of the need for it. You could have called heads/tails successfully twice as well.

Even in the 5 or so times it appeared to be helpful here, was it really ? We just don't know.

Now that Matt points it out, for such a broad term as 'enzymes', we might as well be sending folks to the pool store for 'sanitizer'. They could come home with Baqua or Bromine because we didn't have a specific product that we sent them for, within the 'sanitizer' realm.
Don't know how "storied" a career I have had (a SLAM?). What I do have is experience, which is not the same thing.
Go to a pool store and ask for an enzyme product and you will find products labeled as an enzyme, no ambiguity.

Never said that I only saw it effective twice. Said that I only saw the need for it, and its effectiveness, on two residential pools. Both times the owner's children were members of a high-school swim team. They would, both, have weekly swim parties during Summer with the entire team and their significant others. Sometimes twenty to twenty five kids, with all their attendant body oils, sweat, suntan lotions, etc. Do the math.
Went from having to clean a Sta-Rite 450 System 3 (the largest cartridge filter at the time) weekly to monthly, still too often. At the time VSP's weren't out and builders were still installing 1.5 and 2hp pumps on everything. The oily sheen on the pool surface also went away, to the delight of the customers.

At the time, I also serviced many commercial pools, mostly apartment complexes, and enzyme products were a mainstay. That's where they really shine and are needed the most, in my opinion. I have always been skeptical of new pool products, but also willing, at my cost (though some manufacturers would give out full-size samples) to try them. In the mid 90's, when enzymes were first widely available, I did just that and learned of their effectiveness when needed. Most service techs in my area who do commercial pools wouldn't stop using them at any time.

They were designed for use in pools to get rid of organic substances, but also work on petroleum, as I mentioned earlier. During a drought, throwing away and replacing 75,000 gallons of water because an idiot decided to throw used motor oil into it was worth the option of trying it, and it worked. Oil gone, no oil-soaked mats, fibers, cloths, etc. (hazardous waste) to dispose of. Oil gone, "digested", turned into water and Co2, even most off the tile line. A lot of water saved. Yes, filter media had to be replaced, petroleum and pool plastics aren't a good mix.

This thread was started by a poster, who's husband is a mechanic, asking what to do with the oil that came off him when he swam after work. Just a recommendation of what to try.

So far, all the negative posts seem to be from ones who have never used the product, but by virtue of what appears to be very a extensive education, a blanket, "It's a waste of money." I do envy them their knowledge as chemistry was never something I was good at.

The "scientific" method doesn't seem to apply here for some reason. Its, essentially, what I did, and my conclusion and documentation is my recommendation. Of all the lists that I found, the last step seems to be left out, it needs to be repeatable. Always was for me.

For simplicity:
  • Make an observation or ask a question. ...
  • Gather background information. ...
  • Create a hypothesis. ...
  • Create a prediction and perform a test. ...
  • Analyze the results and draw a conclusion. ...
  • Document the results of your experiment.






 
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This is the crucial bit. To make it science, the documentation has to be
Based on that reasoning, the oil is still in that 75,000 gallon pool, all of the reduced effort that product saved me and others didn't happen, all of the articles cited are fallacious, because an unknown peer of another unknown person either hasn't corroborated the findings in a "scientific" journal or publish a case study in a form readily available to ones who weren't looking.

Again, based on that reasoning, no recommendations regarding anything pool related made on this site should be considered valid without a complete list of peer reviewed articles in respected literature, along with their qualifications to actually comment on the item.
 
If I may add an observation, this site is a form of peer review when it comes to pools. But anecdotes to recommendation for oil in a pool is going to be a looooong process, whatever way it works out. Just doesn’t happen often enough. If the manufacturers would at least list the ingredients and concentrations, that would likely go a long way to having a stable of products that could be determined of not being “bad” for a pool so no harm in trying. In a different context I use a lot of herbicide and insecticide products that the EPA requires labeling so it’s easy to find out what the actives are in it and easy to research what it is and how it actually works, downsides, etc.

Maybe if the pool industry did the same routinely, it would be easier to evaluate the various products. I have a bias towards Orenda products and they seem to make reasonable claims for their stuff and provide a reasonable amount of do’es, don’ts and situations where they will come out and tell you whatever won’t work, but I still don’t have a solid idea of long term effects so I still don’t use them. If somebody poured motor oil in my pool, I might think differently. I’d probably try just about anything that claimed to help.
 
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I had a conversation with an Oil and Gas guy who was working with enzymes to produce a product that could be used to help cleanup efforts after oil spill events. His comment at the time was that they where able to get good results in the lab but failed to show any measurable result in the field.

My personal take is that I’m reluctant to use any product that does not list its ingredients.
 
If the manufacturers would at least list the ingredients
It might not even be enzymes, but commercially just labeled as for the public to understand that the oils will be dissolved or taken care of. Peer reviewed or not, i would not pour something in my pool water that i dont know exactly what it contains and does. Matt probably refers to being repeatable process(like TFP), like with the CYA reducer potion, sometimes works but most often not. For the guy that works it will be science to himl but what for the rest? Just a potion!
 
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I had a conversation with an Oil and Gas guy who was working with enzymes to produce a product that could be used to help cleanup efforts after oil spill events. His comment at the time was that they where able to get good results in the lab but failed to show any measurable result in the field.

My personal take is that I’m reluctant to use any product that does not list its ingredients.
Oil spill, usually in open water, raw petroleum most of the time. Process is slow. Product easily diluted.
Oils in a pool, mostly organic, occassionally an idiot, essentially a closed lab.
Big difference.
 
Oil spill, usually in open water, raw petroleum most of the time. Process is slow. Product easily diluted.
Oils in a pool, mostly organic, occassionally an idiot, essentially a closed lab.
Big difference.
A bit different maybe but while the industrial petroleum application is in open and often cold water, pool water is chlorinated where enzymes and chlorine don‘t play well together. And we have seen time again where enzyme CYA reducers just don‘t perform as they theoretically could.
 
I now regret my initial reference to the oil & gas industry lol. I was referring to the wastewater sector and oil & gas use of water, not really thinking about spills into bodies of water. I’d view spills more of as an “as best you can” with few options. Wastewater and oil & gas use of water in situations where the water needs to be “testable“ clean prior to discharge is different. Another application that comes to mind is marine bilge water.

Anyway, I see I should not have gone off on that tangent. Seems to have created a distraction.

If something seems to work, that’s great. A lot of things got figured out empirically at first which led to the scientific examination and proof later.
 
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