Enzymes

[Bperry]

This is the crucial bit. To make it science, the documentation has to be

a scientifically peer-review study published in a mainstream scientific journal

No offense intended (I have this OCD thing with words and meaning), but if this were true, science could not have existed before peer reviewed journals, science fairs wouldn’t really be science fairs, etc. Publishing a paper doesn’t make the work done before publishing suddenly gain the name of “science” once it’s published. Publishing merely allows critique and attempts at duplication of the “scientific” study to help confirm or disprove its conclusions.

Science is simply the study of nature and gathering facts to determine what is true or false about the natural world. The word gets loosely thrown around a bit in society lately to mean things it doesn’t.

In the same way, I’d guess there are some scientific experiments and published studies on the results of using enzymes to treat pool water? If so, then it’s certainly ok to critique those studies and point out their flaws and label their conclusions wrong if you can do so logically. In fact, doing so is an inherent part of advancing scientific knowledge, but to say that the experiments and conclusions are not science isn’t accurate.

 

[ajw22]

If something seems to work, that’s great. A lot of things got figured out empirically at first which led to the scientific examination and proof later.

I first look at something unknown and ask can it maybe help, and if it does not help will it not hurt anything? If so, give it a try.

People are debating if enzymes help and the jury seems to be out with maybe or maybe not.

However I have not heard any evidence that using enzymes hurts pool water chemistry in any way. If that is so I say give it a try in certain situations.

Hurting your wallet is a whole other debate and what many Pool Stores trade on.

 

[mgtfp]

No offense intended (I have this OCD thing with words and meaning), but if this were true, science could not have existed before peer reviewed journals, science fairs wouldn’t really be science fairs, etc. Publishing a paper doesn’t make the work done before publishing suddenly gain the name of “science” once it’s published. Publishing merely allows critique and attempts at duplication of the “scientific” study to help confirm or disprove its conclusions.

Science is simply the study of nature and gathering facts to determine what is true or false about the natural world. The word gets loosely thrown around a bit in society lately to mean things it doesn’t.

In the same way, I’d guess there are some scientific experiments and published studies on the results of using enzymes to treat pool water? If so, then it’s certainly ok to critique those studies and point out their flaws and label their conclusions wrong if you can do so logically. In fact, doing so is an inherent part of advancing scientific knowledge, but to say that the experiments and conclusions are not science isn’t accurate.

Science is of course a process, and all the steps before publication is of course part of it. And process and standards evolved of course over time.

But the current standard is that scientific results need to be published, peer-reviewed and peer-reviewed scientific journals. There are also other publication channels to complement this, like presentations at scientific conferences which allows deeper discussions between peers. But these presentations usually include writing an article first that will be published in the conference proceedings.

You can follow all other steps of the scientific process, but if you shy away from presentation in accepted journals, hindering the peer-review process, you will have a hard time getting accepted in the scientific community. That's the process now. To put historical developments into today's context is not an easy task.

I only started chiming in, because 1poolman1 claimed "Haven't yet seen a scientific, peer-reviewed article in a mainstream scientific, or pool industry related (I read at least three), journal that recommends the TFP method of pool care".

Yes, there might not be a publication that explains what "Trouble Free Pool Care" is and discusses all steps in one publication. But as far as I can see, all of Chem Geeks work here is backed by publications he has been citing here. And the main pillar of TFPC, the FC/CYA relationship which is based on O'Brien's and other's work, he published himself. He didn't call it TFPC, and he had to put it into a public pool context, accepting regulations applicable in these settings like limits for free chlorine or CYA.

And yes, I agree that it might be a good idea for the moderators/admins of the forum to collect all of the relevant scientific publications and cite them in a central forum location, dig them out of the gazillions of posts and threads.

And I also agree that anecdotal evidence has its place here (discussed in The Deep End, not being sold as the ultimate truth) and can trigger discussion and further investigation. Ben's work essentially started based on experience, was picked up by Richard and backed with science.

But I am very cautious about pouring potions with unknown contents into my pool just because someone claims it fixes a certain problem, without explaining how.

All that Matt asked for are references to scientific publications discussing enzymes in pool water. Not just articles in industry magazines.

 

[1poolman1]

How they work, very simple explanation:

How enzymes work

Don't add Enzymes until you read this first! There are choices of product that target specific organics in pools. How enzymes work.

cpoclass.com

As for what is in them, in the US a Safety Data Sheet must be made available for every legitimate product available for sale to industry and the general consumer.
For example:

https://www.horizonpoolsupply.com/_uls/resources/SDS%20-%20Orb-3%20Pool%20Enzymes%20Pro%20Non-Foaming.pdf

Or, don't use it (them), I don't regularly. It was a recommendation for a specific problem.

 

[mgtfp]

How they work, very simple explanation:

How enzymes work

Don't add Enzymes until you read this first! There are choices of product that target specific organics in pools. How enzymes work.

cpoclass.com

As for what is in them, in the US a Safety Data Sheet must be made available for every legitimate product available for sale to industry and the general consumer.
For example:

https://www.horizonpoolsupply.com/_uls/resources/SDS%20-%20Orb-3%20Pool%20Enzymes%20Pro%20Non-Foaming.pdf

Or, don't use it (them), I don't regularly. It was a recommendation for a specific problem.

The problem with safety data sheets is that they only have to list materials considered hazardous.

The ingredients list in the example you quoted is this:


Not very helpful to understand what's in it.

 

[1poolman1]

The problem with safety data sheets is that they only have to list materials considered hazardous.

The ingredients list in the example you quoted is this:

View attachment 455855
Not very helpful to understand what's in it.

I guess it depends on how much you want to know. I don't know what's in sausages, but know that I like them once in a while, and I eat those. I buy a known brand and trust they won't harm me. I
f there is nothing known to be harmful, on a personal level I don't mind using the product, and have in my pool to see how it works (leafy pool, leaves give off oils, enzyme helped, but not so much that I want or need to use it regularly). They are a special use product that work under specified conditions to resolve a specific problem. Not sure where the problem lay.

 

[AUSpool]

I remain a little more then just sceptical, the pool industry is commercially driven, they produce products that they believe are marketable and will provide a substantial profit for themselves. They often blatantly don’t care if we need it, if it works as described or indeed, if it may cause damage to our pools. They would sell their grandmothers ashes to us if they thought they could turn a profit in doing so.

Having said that and as mentioned before, enzymes are protein based biological macromolecules found IN everything from bacteria to humans that require specific temperatures and pH ranges to do their enzyme thing and to remain viable. Using them in a pool we take them OUT of their nice comfortable environment and dump them, after manufacturing extremes often using freeze drying, into a highly variable and chlorinated environment where the chlorine and a bit of time is most likely going to fix the problem the enzyme treatment was bought for.

 

[PoolGeek69]

Let me start by sharing the technical, chemistry definition of an "enzyme" -

An enzyme is a protein based, organic macromolecule (long chains of folded amino acids and sometimes metal ions) that is a catalyst for various biochemical reactions. In other words, it is something that increases the rate at which a chemical reaction will occur.

Enzymes come in different types depending on what they do, and this list just names but a few -

Proteases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of proteins into smaller amino acid blocks OR into individual amino acids. An example of a protease is the chemical compound pepsin found inside the stomachs of human beings. Pepsin helps to dissolve and degrade protein from the meats we consume into smaller chains of amino acids so that other enzymes in our intestines can break that down further into individual amino acids that our body absorbs.

Lipases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of fatty acids and oils into their various sub compounds. Lipases help our bodies to breakdown fats into smaller, shorter chain organic molecules that are more easily absorbed and turned into the energy sources and building blocks our bodies needs.

Amylases are enzymes that catalyze the oxidation or reduction of starch and sugar molecules into smaller subunits or break up the sugar molecules altogether. Glycolysis is the conversion of sugars into pyruvate and it is an enzyme-driven process that releases the energy needed for cellular life. Without certain amylases, life would not exist.

The above is just a very generalized description and there is a ton more detail to the science of enzymes as well as variations in the types of enzyme classes. It is a brach of chemistry and biochemistry that is super-complicated and for which there is no end of detail a person can get caught up studying.

But, with all complex things, oversimplifications are bound to happen and this is where I have deep reservations about the use of anything called an "enzyme" in a swimming pool. Unless a manufacturer is willing to divulge exactly what it is they are using, then the truth is that we have no idea what we are putting in the pool and we are going completely on faith that it will work as the manufacturer intended or wishful thinking, or the "Placebo Effect"....

Would any of you trust your children to the care of the pool industry??

Also, enzymes generally only work under very specific conditions where the pH is in the right range and there is sufficient oxidizer (dissolved O2) present for the reactions to take place. For example, the pepsin I mentioned above as an example of a protease ... it ONLY works if the pH is below 2.0 which, inside your stomach full of hydrochloric acid, is fine. But if you mix up pepsin in a container of water and throw a chunk of beef into it, nothing will happen. Many enzymes not only require the environment to be correct (pH, temperature, oxygen, etc) BUT ALSO require a coenzyme or other organic or inorganic compounds, sometimes called co-factors, in order for them to work. So, if the coenzyme is not present, the the enzyme itself does nothing at all.

So here's my feeling on the subject matter - you show me a scientifically peer-review study published in a mainstream scientific journal where the authors investigate the use of enzymes IN POOL WATER to control contamination, and I'll happily read that paper and accept the conclusions.

Guys, I don't know how to say this any other way -

THE PLURAL OF ANECDOTE IS NOT DATA!

I don't care how many people swear that their cousin Louie's step sister's neighbor has a pool guy who's buddy swears that his boss told him that the sales guy from the distributor had a sister who used the stuff and it worked like MAGIC. If you can't study it using the scientific method, then it's just old wive's tales. Snake-oil salesmen made lots of money, and left lots of victims, back in the day ...

Excellent post and points to ponder!

Here is the best I could find. Not much, but at least *somebody* is looking at it with a discerning eye:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjjjNeYo-D6AhVCrYkEHaS6CJYQFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.kennesaw.edu%2Ffacpubs%2F2567%2F&usg=AOvVaw0LskGrMLVB2EBK2V4BZdxK

 

[mgtfp]

Excellent post and points to ponder!

Here is the best I could find. Not much, but at least *somebody* is looking at it with a discerning eye:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjjjNeYo-D6AhVCrYkEHaS6CJYQFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.kennesaw.edu%2Ffacpubs%2F2567%2F&usg=AOvVaw0LskGrMLVB2EBK2V4BZdxK

Thanks for digging that out. Here is a google scholar link where the pdf of the article can get downloaded.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Summary seems to be that quite a few products didn't show any enzymatic activity in pool water. Some did at the higher concentrations used in the study. But:

Quote:
"Although six of these products displayed statistically significant enzymatic activity, the 1:20 dilution used in the assay is much more concentrated (by 6,500 to 65,000 times) than the directions called for in an actual pool setting.
...
The highest enzyme activity in our study (product xyz) at a 1:20 dilution had a corresponding absorbance value of 2.433 (Table 1). If product xyz were used as directed, however, at a dilution of 1:13,000, the value resulting from the enzyme activity would be 0.0037 according to dilution calculations. This is not indicative of significant enzymatic activity from the pool-water treatment product at the recommended dosage levels. In comparison, the assays containing only pool water displayed much higher activity than this, having an average activity of 0.213. Because the concentration of chlorine in the pool water is held constant within a small range, this activity level is representative of actual pool use. Therefore, the pool water itself contributed to significantly more lipid degradation than the lipase activity contained in the pool-water treatment product."

The study is from 2007. Maybe the companies selling these products (and who seem to have paid for the study) acted on the results and adjusted their dosage recommendations? Or increased the enzyme concentrations?

 

[AUSpool]

This is the same article with open access on scholarworks.

https://scholarworks.bgsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=ijare

Rippe, Karen; Condon, Brian; Hosterman, Kevin; Williams, Erica; and Garner, Michelle (2007) "A Survey of
Enzymatic Activity in Commercially Available Pool and Spa Products," International Journal of Aquatic Research and Education: Vol. 1: No. 1, Article 6.
DOI: A Survey of Enzymatic Activity in Commercially Available Pool and Spa Products
Available at: A Survey of Enzymatic Activity in Commercially Available Pool and Spa Products

If I read that correctly the products tested showed very little enzymatic activity at the suggested concentrations. And no activity above 85degF.

The MSDS and product details from links in previous posts don’t identify any particular enzyme or the concentration contained in the product. I assume they are using Lipase, most likely from bacteria or fungal origin.

Degradation or deactivation of the enzyme is a product of chlorine, temperature and UV. The article above doesn’t indicate a time for total deactivation but it seems likely to be a couple of hours and at very best I believe one could safely assume total deactivation within 24 hours.

The use of enzymes in industry and commercial applications is widespread but generally the application can be assessed by value added in production output which is not the case in the pool industry. The literature I have read with regard to commercial application of enzymes in industry don’t or haven’t included the pool industry.

I remain skeptical of their value in a chlorinated swimming pool. I am also apposed the idea of a maintenance dose as recommended by these products. I think you’d get more value from tipping a cup of yogurt in your pool once a week.

If your following the the TFP method and/or running a stabilized chlorinated pool I cant see any value in using any of these enzyme based products.