Mid-Construction DIY - STUCK! - PLEASE HELP!!!

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@mas985

WOW thanks again for replying and having a look man!!!!

I have changed the scheme again into 2 separate loops as you said it should be.
I still want to use 2 pumps though.
I've added a new diagram with all the details (I hope)
My jet pump:

Thing is - I have a 1 phase electricity system in my house and I'm very limited load-wise for the entire house, up to 40amps...


If there is any chance you can have a look and let me know if it might work that will be great!!!!

- Should I use 75mm tubing for the main drains? Can it be "BAD" if I use tubes that are "TOO BIG" or the bigger the better?
- Should I use bigger tube for the air blower as well?
 

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  • Pool plumbing Scheme 4.PNG
    Pool plumbing Scheme 4.PNG
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shlomikalfa said:
Thing is - I have a 1 phase electricity system in my house and I'm very limited load-wise for the entire house, up to 40amps...
Click to expand...
Most all residential pool pumps are single phase so that isn't an issue. Or did you mean to say 120v vs 240v? Both are single phase.

shlomikalfa said:
- Should I use 75mm tubing for the main drains? Can it be "BAD" if I use tubes that are "TOO BIG" or the bigger the better?
Click to expand...
Increasing pipe size has only one disadvantage, cost. Also, there are diminishing returns but I would not hesitate to use 75mm suction lines. The spa return lines should also be 75mm.

shlomikalfa said:
- Should I use bigger tube for the air blower as well?
Click to expand...
Yes. 64 mm would be advisable. If you put in a Hartford loop near the spa and/or the air pipe travels uphill to the equipment pad, then you might not require a blower.

As for the pump, I don't think that one is going to work. The jets alone will create about 35'/10m of head. Even assuming all 75mm plumbing, the operating point would be about 60 GPM @ 35' of head. Well below the 70 GPM required. BTW, how long are the spa pipes going to be (suction & return)?
 
@mas985 You are a life savior!!!

- We use 220v here, but I was referring to the entire house electric system which is limited to 40amps - 1 phase.
- Blower will be placed on top (above) the mechanical area which is just next to the pool (about 40cm away from the water with a wall separation).
- I've cancelled the pump order and looking for a stronger one that will fit my needs and that I can afford at the moment.

Main pool circuit:
Drainage pipes: 75mm, 5m length, 4*45deg, 1 T split, 2 main drains
Return pipe: 75mm length, 6*45deg, 1*90deg, 2 * return outlets.
+ Local tubing in mech room as described above

Jet Circuit:
Drainage pipes: 3m length, 4*45deg, 1 T split, 2 main drains
Return pipes: 8m, 4 * 45deg, 7 jets connected by Ts.
Blower: 9.5m, 3*45deg.

If it means that much I can place the pump for the jets on the "spa" side and reduce the pipe length to 3.5m...

Another question I've got is - the filter is OK? Cause I need to buy it already :)
Also, I don't get the whole changing pipe sizes thing... Do I just put adapters on the pump to get to 75 and then reduce to 50 on heater and then again...
Or perhaps I should do the whole Tech area using the same size as the pump's outlet?

Attached my latest scheme + My actual hole and pool vision.
Thanks again!!!!
My Hole2.jpeg
Pool plumbing Scheme 4.PNG
 
shlomikalfa said:
- Blower will be placed on top (above) the mechanical area which is just next to the pool (about 40cm away from the water with a wall separation).
Click to expand...
If the air line is that close, I doubt you will need a blower as long as the pump is powerful enough.

shlomikalfa said:
If it means that much I can place the pump for the jets on the "spa" side and reduce the pipe length to 3.5m...
Click to expand...
If you are going with 90mm lines, then it should not be an issue. Even 75mm would be fine given the short distance. There will not be much benefit with 90mm.

shlomikalfa said:
Another question I've got is - the filter is OK? Cause I need to buy it already :)
Click to expand...
With the pump size you have for main circulation, the filter is fine. However, larger is always better when it comes to filters so you don't have to clean it as often.

shlomikalfa said:
Also, I don't get the whole changing pipe sizes thing... Do I just put adapters on the pump to get to 75 and then reduce to 50 on heater and then again...
Click to expand...
Reducers and bushings can easily change from one pipe size to another.
 
@mas985
Bigger is better but I've really got a small space for the whole thing and I'm trying to get the most out of it.

About that pump - I should aim at something like:
  • Q.MAX(Flow):108GPM/410l/min
right?
Currently looking at these:
- https://www.amazon.com/Anbull-Horsepower-Efficiency-Circulation-Filtration/dp/B09B4X72MD/ref=sr_1_19?keywords=inground+self+priming+pool+pump&qid=1654544794&s=lawn-garden&sr=1-19-catcorr&th=1
- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09ZY9M7ZD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&th=1

How much 'Head' do I have there anyways ?! tried to calculate a couple of times and came up with numbers around 4-8 which was strange...


Another thing I'm concerned about is the suction on these things... I don't want anyone to loose a limb to these suction holes with all that sucking power... They drainage pipes says:
Drainage details.PNG
That's why I was thinking of going with 90mm drainage.

So, about the piping...
- DO I play with sizes in Tech area of leave it as is (1.5" for the whole area) and then enlarge it on the main exiting pipe up to the "spa area"?
---- I thought the entire machines area will be 1.5" so I've already ordered valves that size
but I think I can get bigger ones maybe...

- And more important - When I get to the "spa area" do I shrink it and enlarge it multiple times between each jet or just go with 1.5" (Jets size) the entire area?

Thanks for the help man, I think I'll start with the whole piping tomorrow... really want to finish this pool thing by the end of the month...
 
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shlomikalfa said:
About that pump - I should aim at something like:
  • Q.MAX(Flow):108GPM/410l/min
right?
Currently looking at these:
- https://www.amazon.com/Anbull-Horsepower-Efficiency-Circulation-Filtration/dp/B09B4X72MD/ref=sr_1_19?keywords=inground+self+priming+pool+pump&qid=1654544794&s=lawn-garden&sr=1-19-catcorr&th=1
- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09ZY9M7ZD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&th=1
Click to expand...
These are all low head pumps. You need a high head pump. You need something over 80'/24m peak head.

shlomikalfa said:
How much 'Head' do I have there anyways ?! tried to calculate a couple of times and came up with numbers around 4-8 which was strange...
Click to expand...
Plumbing head loss is dependent on flow rate. Flow rate is dependent on the pump head curve. You must determine the plumbing head curve and determine where it crosses the pump's head curve. It is not a trivial exercise.

shlomikalfa said:
Another thing I'm concerned about is the suction on these things... I don't want anyone to loose a limb to these suction holes with all that sucking power... They drainage pipes says:
View attachment 420177
That's why I was thinking of going with 90mm drainage.
Click to expand...
90mm is fine but even 75mm @ 90 GPM still meets 6 ft/sec. With dual MDs, that greatly reduces the entrapment risk.

shlomikalfa said:
- DO I play with sizes in Tech area of leave it as is (1.5" for the whole area) and then enlarge it on the main exiting pipe up to the "spa area"?
---- I thought the entire machines area will be 1.5" so I've already ordered valves that size
but I think I can get bigger ones maybe...
Click to expand...
I would not use less than 2" on the equipment pad. For the spa loop, 2.5" minimum on the equipment pad. Note too, the smaller the pipe, the noisier it will be and your equipment is very close to the pool.

shlomikalfa said:
- And more important - When I get to the "spa area" do I shrink it and enlarge it multiple times between each jet or just go with 1.5" (Jets size) the entire area?
Click to expand...
I would try and find spa jets with 2" connections instead of 1.5" and the use all 2" between the jets but feed it with the large pipe somewhere near the middle and NOT at the end like shown in the picture.
 
@mas985
Well, I've cancelled my order on those amazon pumps before... found this one:

SILEN | The best swimming pool pump

www.espa.com www.espa.com
the 2hp pump lists 31M head and flow of about 30m3/h so I think it should be OK even by your standards :)

I've been wondering though... why not getting a jet pump, this pump is used for the jets only anyways... the only problem I can see is that it's above water level...
Am I right?

EDIT>

Had a 2nd \ 3rd read of the hydraulics 101 post and NOW I think I understand how to consider the head-loss and what pump I need...
- If I want to have 7 jets, 3/8" operating moderately at 15 GPM - Using 3" pipes I will have about 38 Head-loss. Now I should look for a pump that can run 7*15= 105 GPM at head-loss of 38ft (11.5m)
And now I can see that this pump above is sufficient at 25.2 m3/h (110 GPM).
Pump flow rate at 11.5m head loss.png
Now I start to wander about my waterfall being connected to that crappy 8m3/h, 7 head max pump...
 
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Hi,

Just trying to figure out the whole head loss thingy... SO lets have an example trying to realize if I got this right...

Pump:
Max m3/h = 9
Max head = 7m

Pipes:
Length = 7m
Type = upvc
Diameter = 38mm

Flow chart:
Pool Pump HZS-300 flow chart.jpg

Now... using the "National Pump & Energy - Pipe Friction Loss" calculator:
Friction-loss example.JPG

Seems like the pipe-line is losing 0.87 head...
I think I should now look at the flow-chart again and see where is 1 head situated and thus get my pipe's end m3\h (velocity).
Pool Pump HZS-300 flow chart-Marked.jpg

So it seems like the end of these pipes will still have almost the same velocity...

AM I RIGHT? IS THIS HOW YOU USE / CONCIDER HEAD-LOSS????
(I know there is much more to concider, elbow, valves etc... but the nation calculator claims these are neglectable)

thanks you guys!!!
 
shlomikalfa said:
@mas985
Well, I've cancelled my order on those amazon pumps before... found this one:

SILEN | The best swimming pool pump

www.espa.com www.espa.com
the 2hp pump lists 31M head and flow of about 30m3/h so I think it should be OK even by your standards :)

I've been wondering though... why not getting a jet pump, this pump is used for the jets only anyways... the only problem I can see is that it's above water level...
Am I right?
Click to expand...
I am unfamiliar with that pump. Is it self-priming?
shlomikalfa said:
Had a 2nd \ 3rd read of the hydraulics 101 post and NOW I think I understand how to consider the head-loss and what pump I need...
- If I want to have 7 jets, 3/8" operating moderately at 15 GPM - Using 3" pipes I will have about 38 Head-loss. Now I should look for a pump that can run 7*15= 105 GPM at head-loss of 38ft (11.5m)
And now I can see that this pump above is sufficient at 25.2 m3/h (110 GPM).
Click to expand...
Correct! As long as there is no excess head loss due to smallish pipe. Using 1 1/2" pipe anywhere in that loop will cause excess head loss reducing flow rate.

However, I thought you were going with 10 GPM jet which are usually 5/16". But if you can choose the correct pump, 3/8" jets will be better performing.

shlomikalfa said:
Now I start to wander about my waterfall being connected to that crappy 8m3/h, 7 head max pump...
Click to expand...
Yes, that could also be an issue. Some though has to be put into the choice of pump for each application. Especially waterfalls which tend to require very high flow rates. How wide is the waterfall? 1 GPM/inch is typical.
 
@mas985
- Pump is claimed to be "Self-priming up to 4m."
- Waterfall is 63mm, 60*30cm, by what you said it should be ~12GPM which is just fine if I use my valve to divert all of the 8m3/h from the smaller pump to the waterfall :)

Thanks a 1,000,000!
Not that anything is DONE yets but - I'm like super-excited to go and buy some pipes tomorrow :)
 

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For plumbing you can determine the head loss for a particular flow rate but to find the operating point of the plumbing WITH a particular pump, you need a different approach.

You first need to determine the formula for the plumbing. This is usually in the form of:

Head Loss (ft) = C * GPM^2

Although you can do this in IU as well. But either way, you need to find the constant C = Head Loss / Flow Rate^2

With the formula in hand, you can then plot the plumbing curve over the pump head curve. Here is an example of a Pump's Head curve and different RPM and with different plumbing curves (i.e. plumbing setup):

1654640435101.png
Where each plumbing curve crosses a pump curve, there is a unique operating point for a given RPM and Plumbing Curve.


(I know there is much more to concider, elbow, valves etc... but the nation calculator claims these are neglectable)
Click to expand...
Not true! Everything counts including filters, heater, eyeballs, jet fittings and anything else that touches the water. You could probably ignore 1 fitting but not dozens of them that a typical pool might have. Every 2" 90 is worth an extra 6' of pipe so hardly ignorable.

Forgot to mention that I have several spreadsheets in my signature that do this calculation for you. However, the pump database is more US focused but pump can be added to the database.
 
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@mas985 Are you the owner of this website? pumped101.com Cause it looks pretty 1972ish ... We can fix that once the whole pool "job" is done if you like :)
Thanks for all the info man! Ordered the pump this morning... I hope it'll do justice to my pool :)

Since I want to buy the pipes today I've been doing some thinking...
- Ball valves - how many do I need? and where should I put them? Organizing everything and laying them one next to each other is nice but is it really functionally better? Perhaps just adding a ball valve to every line that requires it right next to the outlet\inlet of it with the same size of the inlet\outlet... i.e. pump has a 1.5" outlet - add a record and glue a ball valve right-away after it with the same size then another record to the required pipeline size the rest of the way...

Any chance you can have a look at the whole valving plan I've made?
As per my "plumbing scheme" model.
Click to expand...
- Check valves
----- 1* Blower - can I place it next to the outlet or should it be next to water-level?
----- 1* Main line - after the 3 way split to the waterfall / before it goes under water-level? (suggested on pump's Chinese documents - or maybe google translate was wrong)
----- 1* Main line - before the inflow inlet (to prevent water from going back and help priming?)

- Ball valves
----- *1 Blower - Perhaps I'll want to block it?
----- *2 Jet pump - both inlet\outlets, next to pump for maintenance?
----- *1 Pool pump - on inlet for maintenance.
----- *2 Main circulation - after the waterfall/main circulation split. (Or maybe I don't need that one cause I have a 3 way valve for the split?)

- 3 way valves
----- 1 * Filter\Heater split.
----- 1 * Waterfall\Main line split.

- Pressure gauges
----- 1* Jet pumps outflow.
----- 1* Heater line
----- 1* Waterfall line
----- 1* Main line
Click to expand...
I've just realized that these ball valves are NOT cheap! and that my 3 way valves are 1.5" :(
Can I use these with records to downsize into them and then upsize again?

Can I do the same with ball valves? (Haven't bought those yet :))

Bah, I think I'll just return the valves and get bigger ones and not go cheap on the ball valves as well :)
The valves I've ordered: Amazon.com: FibroPool 1 1/2" POSI- Close 3 Way Non- Lube Valve… : Patio, Lawn & Garden
--> It says I can fit my 2" pipe over it... perhaps they are ok?
Or should I take this one - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001I7HZ20/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1BPQ5NXXQPYWK&psc=1 ?

And my Check valves: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064TQ2WQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
I'm not sure I can glue my 2" pipes on those...

Thanks again for the attention and all the help man!!!

EDIT:
Trying to plan everything before I actually go ahead and do it ... I've made some plans for the Spa area, One is by far more expensive then the other and I can't really tell if it'll out-perform the other and actually worth the effort...
Also, still thinking about going 90 vs 75mm and it seems like 90 is *2 the price... :(

Spa design- plumbing.PNG

Latest pool plan:
Pool plumbing Scheme 5.PNG
 
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Why would you want all those jets on one line? Are you hoping for these jets to have pressure coming out of them like a stand alone spa?

I may be wrong but wouldnt you want a smaller pipe to create more pressure to have the "jets" act as jets? (I didnt read the whole thread but i looks like the jets step down after the 2" pipe ? cant tell.)
On my fiberglass spa I have (2) 2" drains and then the return is 1.5" that then hits a manifold that I believe steps down to an inch or 3/4 into 12 jets. Works good off of a 1.5 hp pump. (I am also not looking to replicate a stand alone spa)

I personally would split some of them up so you can have more control on which jets are on and off.
Maybe you just want the floor jets on, or just the jets on one side of the spa on?
 
shlomikalfa said:
@mas985 Are you the owner of this website? pumped101.com Cause it looks pretty 1972ish ... We can fix that once the whole pool "job" is done if you like :)
Click to expand...
No that site was put together by Joe Evans from Pentair Water Systems.

shlomikalfa said:
- Ball valves - how many do I need? and where should I put them? Organizing everything and laying them one next to each other is nice but is it really functionally better? Perhaps just adding a ball valve to every line that requires it right next to the outlet\inlet of it with the same size of the inlet\outlet... i.e. pump has a 1.5" outlet - add a record and glue a ball valve right-away after it with the same size then another record to the required pipeline size the rest of the way...
Click to expand...
Don't use the cheap ball valves. Use Jandy Neverlube 2-way and 3-way valves AND check valves. But I don't think you really need 2-ways on the inlet/outlet pipes. As long as the pump is above the water level, they are not really needed.

shlomikalfa said:
Any chance you can have a look at the whole valving plan I've made?
Click to expand...
Blower line I would use 2.5". But again, if you install a Hartford loop, you may not need a blower. An air line that pops up near the jets works just as well if not better.

You are still feeding the spa jets in series. Take the supply line to the middle point and feed the jets from there. Also, the bubblers at the bottom really should have their own lines so you can control the flow between the different applications. They have different head loss and will not look right unless you have some control.

Another option is to use 3x2" lines to the jets and bubblers. 2 Jets on one line, 3 jets on another, and the bubblers on a 3rd line. Each with their own 2-way valve.

You really don't need 3" pipe from the main circulation pump. That is way too weak of a pump to deliver enough flow. 2" is more than sufficient for that application.

shlomikalfa said:
I've just realized that these ball valves are NOT cheap! and that my 3 way valves are 1.5" :(
Click to expand...
Do you want to replace them every couple of years? The cheap ones don't last. Go for Jandy Neverlubes.
 
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@jonnyd91
Hi, thanks for joining in :)
jonnyd91 said:
Why would you want all those jets on one line? Are you hoping for these jets to have pressure coming out of them like a stand alone spa?
Click to expand...
- I've been working on this plan with @mas985 for about a week now... this is what we came up to produce a "spa" like feature... The idea is - having an area inside the pool you can sit and relax in bubbling waters :) a mini-spa area...
jonnyd91 said:
I may be wrong but wouldnt you want a smaller pipe to create more pressure to have the "jets" act as jets?
Click to expand...
Well... that's what I was thinking at first but then after a lot of reading and even MORE guidance from @mas985 I've realized that you don't want a smaller pipe since that causes you to loose your head, the idea is having a "clean" waterflow up to the jets and then compress that Head through them jets using a small 3/8" holes...
(I hope)
jonnyd91 said:
I personally would split some of them up so you can have more control on which jets are on and off.
Click to expand...
That sounds good but as you can see I'm still trying to figure out how should it all be connected to work properly as it is :)

@mas985
mas985 said:
But I don't think you really need 2-ways on the inlet/outlet pipes
Click to expand...
I was going for ball valves on each line for maintenance... that way I'll be able to shut off any line I want... or perhaps I don't really need it since I can just turn the power off and the water won't come this way?! :)

mas985 said:
You are still feeding the spa jets in series. Take the supply line to the middle point and feed the jets from there
Click to expand...
Thats's about middle, and I was going for a manifold kind of thing there... a big 90mm with small exits - 1 for each jet which are not connected to each other. 2nd plan has by far less work/cost and is like what you said about feeding them jets directly...

mas985 said:
Another option is to use 3x2" lines to the jets and bubblers. 2 Jets on one line, 3 jets on another, and the bubblers on a 3rd line. Each with their own 2-way valve.
Click to expand...
Where and how to split the line into 3 then?! Just 1-90deg and then 3 T and a seal on the end?
Spa-plumbing-eg.PNG

mas985 said:
You really don't need 3" pipe from the main circulation pump. That is way too weak of a pump to deliver enough flow. 2" is more than sufficient for that application.
Click to expand...
OK, will reduce it then, 63mm all the way for main pump returns.

THaNKS!
I'm looking forward for your reply everyday so that i'll be able to move on with this gig :)
 
shlomikalfa said:
I was going for ball valves on each line for maintenance... that way I'll be able to shut off any line I want... or perhaps I don't really need it since I can just turn the power off and the water won't come this way?! :)
Click to expand...
It isn't a good idea to start shutting off lines while the pump is running. Flow adjustment is fine but if you shut off all the lines, you have issues when the pump is running

shlomikalfa said:
Where and how to split the line into 3 then?! Just 1-90deg and then 3 T and a seal on the end?
View attachment 421116
Click to expand...
Is this split near the pump and running smaller lines all the way to the pool? If so, that is what I was suggesting. Each of those lines could then have it's own 2-way valve (not ball valve) to control flow.
 
@mas985 Grrr... darn it! took me about 2 hours to put this "Manifold" artwork image up... Won't this setup act as a manifold?
I don't really understand though, what's the difference as to where is the "split" since when using this huge pipe it almost has no head-loss...
... Is this how it should look like:

Pool plumbing Scheme 6.PNG

EDIT|>>
3AM in here so I'm off to sleep ... really hoping to get this nailed already by tomorrow and make the pipes purchase before the week ends :)
Catch with ya in 4.5 HRs :)
 
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It is more convenient to have the split and valves near the pump. So the header looks fine where it is but after the header to the pool, the lines only need to be 2" because each line is now only taking part of the flow. You can still use 3" if you want but it is overkill.
 
shlomikalfa said:
@mas985 Grrr... darn it! took me about 2 hours to put this "Manifold" artwork image up... Won't this setup act as a manifold?
I don't really understand though, what's the difference as to where is the "split" since when using this huge pipe it almost has no head-loss...
... Is this how it should look like:

View attachment 421166

EDIT|>>
3AM in here so I'm off to sleep ... really hoping to get this nailed already by tomorrow and make the pipes purchase before the week ends :)
Catch with ya in 4.5 HRs :)
Click to expand...
Yes this looks better to me. That’s what I was trying to convey in my post.
 
@mas985 Mooooornings :)
Well... no new comments on me latest design so I guess you are putting your OK TO GO stamp on the plan and I can plumb-away... - right? :)

A couple more questions though:
- If I'm placing 2 way valves on the 3 return lines - lets say I'm closing 2 of the 3 - won't the remaining one get TOO much pressure?
- How do I work the air line? is what I've drawn in the scheme OK? 1 line and splits straight forward... also about the Hartford loop - I don't think I should make one since the pipes are above ground just to the point where the jets are...

- Is 11KW heater pump enough for about 17-20K liters that are going to be in this pool? We like the water at 35deg most of the time :)

Latest plumbing plan - Please Please Please have a look and let me have your final thoughts :)
Pool plumbing Scheme 6.PNG
 
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