Just sagging. My pool water temp is lower (82) so I wonder if that's "helping" shrink it back? Ugh. Sorry my pictures were hard for you to see them. I'll try again. I will go find my dive camera and see if I can't get an underwater shot for you.
Vinyl Liners and FC ranges
- Thread starter ajup2it
- Start date
My neighbor closed her ABG pool one year while upset after unsuccessfully battling chemistry and algae problems all summer. She dumped a boat load of chlorine in it and threw the cover on and figured she would try again in the spring. When she opened, the blue liner was bleached almost white and every last inch was wrinkled. I'm assuming it was two problems between the excessive chlorine and low PH.
That's my point though. My chemistry isn't horribly off to have caused this so I'm struggling to understand what has caused it. My pH has always been between 7.2-7.8; FC is high at 13.5 right now and drifting down to normal in a post SLAM, CYA is at 70, TA is at 150 which is high, but others have advised me to let the FC come down and not fuss with things much until it does.
borjis
LifeTime Supporter
Possibly a dumb question but, is it possible the liner has always been sagging a bit and you just noticed it now?
This is sounding more like a slightly loose cut / fitted liner than a liner that has been damaged in some way.
I thought of it because my liner was a VERY tight fit. To the point that in part of the shallow end, the coping tile pattern
was stretched quite a few inches. Fortunately with water filled in and it faces the opposite side of the house, I only
see it when I'm under water.
This is sounding more like a slightly loose cut / fitted liner than a liner that has been damaged in some way.
I thought of it because my liner was a VERY tight fit. To the point that in part of the shallow end, the coping tile pattern
was stretched quite a few inches. Fortunately with water filled in and it faces the opposite side of the house, I only
see it when I'm under water.
Anything is possible but this is fairly noticeable (in person). My dive camera battery is dead or I'd give you some underwater pix. The sun is finally shining on it and I'm hoping these will give enough contrast so you can see what I mean.
EDIT: I have my returns pointed up to aerate the pool, in hopes that my TA will go down.
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My hunch is going with yours as to not being chemistry related. My neighbors wrinkles had the whole winter to form, but the liner was as tight as could be. No loose sags or folds. Just a million random raised lines all over that looked like a finger print. This way and that way, with no change by the skimmers/return/top edge. Yours looks more like the whole thing is loose. The skimmer screws/plate is stopping it from moving in that area causing it to fold nearby. The top is loose with nowhere else to go. Maybe the material degraded somehow and stretched ?
Second thought. Other friends were affected by a high water table. The liner basically floated randomly with no pressure difference between the two bodies of water. Your whole floor and some of the walls may have shifted slightly, but not be noticeable to you. That would possibly explain the new slack you are finding.
I see it better now and that's my take, as well. It looks to me to have never been cut properly.
Thanks guys. The bottom line is I'm sure they won't cover it under any warranty and it will mean I will have to replace it next year. That sucks...given I'm finally getting my water chem right. Oh well. I appreciate the input!!
I don't know where to begin really. I have a number of issues as a new pool owner. The company that installed the pool had been who we went to in order to test our water. I've had numerous issues with algae and now my liner has wrinkles/sagging around the skimmer box. On another thread, I discussed the liner issue and the company that used to test my water is basically saying that its all my fault about the liner due to my FC levels. Yet, I trusted them to tell me if my FC or any other level was wrong and never did they ever say anything about FC. pH of course, but not FC. Bare with me as I write all this out because I'll get to the numbers part in a moment. I feel like I've been ripped off by said company.
So after being here I've successfully done a SLAM and gotten rid of any algae. My FC has been high for awhile now and I've literally turned my salt cell off for 24 hours to retest only to find its still high, so I will keep it off for another 24 hours to see if I can get it where its recommended here for a SWG/vinyl pool. I've used Pool Math to adjust CYA recently as it was low. Pool Math said 3 lbs. I used two and retested. Now my CYA appears to be high. I didn't even use the dose that Pool Math recommended. I'm using the test kit, but I'm confused as heck about my TA levels and everything else. In fact I'm confused about many of the numbers I'm getting so I thought to go to two different pool companies that have those spinner thingies to test water just to see how their numbers matched up to mine. Now I'm really confused, frustrated and unsure if my results are right or not, who to trust and what the heck to do. I feel like a complete idiot and I really could use a bit of help because I'm just completely lost.
So ....the numbers. Red font stands for high, orange is low and green was "ok". The ** means that on their sheet its within range, however the pool company told me after my liner issue that my FC was too high and that is what's caused my liner to wrinkle after all this time of testing my water for me. If it was an issue, why didn't they bring it up sooner? Also why is theirs so low compared to mine and the other company. Clearly, their test is wrong which I feel my misplaced trust in them contributed to my liner issue.
I digress. Let's look at TA. Why is mine so high when Jerk company says its low and the other company is fine with it? The different pool company said something about their system taking into account CYA to calculate TA? I need a chemist to explain this to me as though explaining to a five year old. I don't understand. My stomach is in knots because I don't know what numbers to trust. TA and CYA are so different than the pool companies. I feel kinda ok about FC and pH. I just feel lost and unable to trust any source right now because I do not understand. On the upside, my water is crystal clear. So I guess I have that going for me.
So after being here I've successfully done a SLAM and gotten rid of any algae. My FC has been high for awhile now and I've literally turned my salt cell off for 24 hours to retest only to find its still high, so I will keep it off for another 24 hours to see if I can get it where its recommended here for a SWG/vinyl pool. I've used Pool Math to adjust CYA recently as it was low. Pool Math said 3 lbs. I used two and retested. Now my CYA appears to be high. I didn't even use the dose that Pool Math recommended. I'm using the test kit, but I'm confused as heck about my TA levels and everything else. In fact I'm confused about many of the numbers I'm getting so I thought to go to two different pool companies that have those spinner thingies to test water just to see how their numbers matched up to mine. Now I'm really confused, frustrated and unsure if my results are right or not, who to trust and what the heck to do. I feel like a complete idiot and I really could use a bit of help because I'm just completely lost.
So ....the numbers. Red font stands for high, orange is low and green was "ok". The ** means that on their sheet its within range, however the pool company told me after my liner issue that my FC was too high and that is what's caused my liner to wrinkle after all this time of testing my water for me. If it was an issue, why didn't they bring it up sooner? Also why is theirs so low compared to mine and the other company. Clearly, their test is wrong which I feel my misplaced trust in them contributed to my liner issue.
I digress. Let's look at TA. Why is mine so high when Jerk company says its low and the other company is fine with it? The different pool company said something about their system taking into account CYA to calculate TA? I need a chemist to explain this to me as though explaining to a five year old. I don't understand. My stomach is in knots because I don't know what numbers to trust. TA and CYA are so different than the pool companies. I feel kinda ok about FC and pH. I just feel lost and unable to trust any source right now because I do not understand. On the upside, my water is crystal clear. So I guess I have that going for me.| My Testing | Jerk Pool Company | Different Pool Company | |
| FC | 9.5 | 6.93** | 9.5 |
| TA | 150 | 118 | 86 |
| pH | 7.5 | 7.5 | 7.5 |
| CYA | 90 | 86 | 128 |
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One of the primary tenants of TFP is to trust your own testing.....period. Taking water to pool stores only confirms what we already know......they are simply not accurate. I would ask you to redo the TA test if your TF-100 is less than a month old. There is a notation in the directions on a false high with fresh TA reagents.
Honestly, I haven't read much else because you are trying to solve too many issues at once. Choose your most important issue and ask that question.....get it resolved with help from the forum and then move to the next issue. Often, the issues are just too confusing to try to explain in one post.
Honestly, I haven't read much else because you are trying to solve too many issues at once. Choose your most important issue and ask that question.....get it resolved with help from the forum and then move to the next issue. Often, the issues are just too confusing to try to explain in one post.
Saturn94
Bronze Supporter
- Mar 11, 2015
- 1,784
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Our pool has a couple wrinkles like what you’re showing; one under a skimmer and one under a return. However, they were caused by the liner floating and shifting, not by FC levels.
Our pool still has the original liner (pool installed March 2004) and has been taken care of the past ~10 years according to the principles taught here. If higher FC levels caused wrinkles, I’d expect we’d have wrinkles all over the pool, but that’s not the case. The only wrinkles are the ones mentioned above.
The liner is now very faded below the water line. It certainly seems exposure to chlorine for about 16 years has caused this, but I don’t know if it would have made any difference if I kept FC at “industry” recommended levels, with the certainly needed shocks needed to deal with the resulting algae outbreaks, or TFP recommended levels, with no shock treatments needed.
Our pool still has the original liner (pool installed March 2004) and has been taken care of the past ~10 years according to the principles taught here. If higher FC levels caused wrinkles, I’d expect we’d have wrinkles all over the pool, but that’s not the case. The only wrinkles are the ones mentioned above.
The liner is now very faded below the water line. It certainly seems exposure to chlorine for about 16 years has caused this, but I don’t know if it would have made any difference if I kept FC at “industry” recommended levels, with the certainly needed shocks needed to deal with the resulting algae outbreaks, or TFP recommended levels, with no shock treatments needed.
Thanks for the responses. I guess I'm just scared of screwing up even more because of the different water chemistry values. If I trust mine then my TA is high (unless its because of the new reagent that @duraleigh mentioned). But my other concern is when I added 2 lbs of CYA when Pool Math said to add 3 lbs now suddenly its high according to the test. I just feel like no matter what I do its wrong.
- Jun 13, 2017
- 450
- Pool Size
- 9600
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
Are you certain about the size of your pool? At first I was having a similar problem, everytime I added chemicals, I overshot my target. After reading here (and a few other places), I realized that my pool dimensions were just a bit off. While I still say 16x24, it's probably closer to 15'10" x 23' 10". Also, the wall height is 52", but the water depth is closer to 44". An inch here and there smaller can reduce the total gallons by a bunch.
As far as your high TA is concerned, your pH will likely rise and when you drop your pH, your TA will come down as well. If you really want to reduce your TA into a specific range, you can follow this article
Lower Total Alkalinity
A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.
www.troublefreepool.com
Hmm, what you say makes sense. I'm not 100% sure how to calculate this but my husband is an engineer and therefore good at equations. I'll task him with this so I have a solid answer of the amount of gallons.Are you certain about the size of your pool? At first I was having a similar problem, everytime I added chemicals, I overshot my target. After reading here (and a few other places), I realized that my pool dimensions were just a bit off. While I still say 16x24, it's probably closer to 15'10" x 23' 10". Also, the wall height is 52", but the water depth is closer to 44". An inch here and there smaller can reduce the total gallons by a bunch.
As far as your high TA is concerned, your pH will likely rise and when you drop your pH, your TA will come down as well. If you really want to reduce your TA into a specific range, you can follow this article
Lower Total Alkalinity
A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.
I've read that article and have been attempting to do exactly that. Add muriatic acid to drop pH for the TA to come down and having my returns pointed up to help bring the pH back up...but I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I know its not a fast process, but I'm also not sure what my expectations should be either.
As far as the pool math, like someone else said - are you sure about the gallons in your pool? Our 20 x 40 vinyl liner pool holds about 25K-26K of your US gallons since there is a good sized shallow end as well as the deep end. I was there for the fill water trucks when we had the liner replaced this year. It took 3 trucks (each truck was 7,000 of our Canadian gallons), plus I topped off a couple more inches with the hose. 21,000 Canadian gallons are about 25,000 US gallons, plus whatever I added via the hose. I use 25,000 gallons for my math if I'm calculating anything that is based on US gallons like this site would be.
- Jun 13, 2017
- 450
- Pool Size
- 9600
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
I know I have high TA in my fill water. For my pool, I watch the TA level, but don't actively try to bring it down. I use rain water to top off as needed as much as I can.
I knock my pH down to 7.7 or 7.8 when it gets to 8 or so. I end up adding acid about 3 times a month to handle the pool this way.
I find it a lot less stressful to keep focused on FC and pH knowing my fill water, if I need to use a lot during the summer, will cause TA and CH to be on the high side of the guidelines presented by TFP.
I knock my pH down to 7.7 or 7.8 when it gets to 8 or so. I end up adding acid about 3 times a month to handle the pool this way.
I find it a lot less stressful to keep focused on FC and pH knowing my fill water, if I need to use a lot during the summer, will cause TA and CH to be on the high side of the guidelines presented by TFP.
Hey guys, I read somewhere that TA is affected by CYA levels and you should deduct 1/3 of your CYA from your TA to really get a true reading. Is this true? If so, then my TA is fine. If not then well, I'm just going to have to do like gonfishin and just focus on FC and pH I guess. I wish I had a chemist as a BFF to help me understand all this.
- May 3, 2014
- 59,688
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
From @JamesW ---
"Cyanurate does contribute to the TA.
Poolmath does account for the effect.
When cyanuric acid is added to the water, the hydrogen ions that are released lower the TA as much as the resulting cyanurate raises the TA. So, adding cyanuric acid has no net effect on TA.
The rule that I use is that if the pH is constantly going too high, the TA is too high.
If the pH is constantly going too low, the TA is too low.
If the pH is stable, the TA is good."
"Cyanurate does contribute to the TA.
Poolmath does account for the effect.
When cyanuric acid is added to the water, the hydrogen ions that are released lower the TA as much as the resulting cyanurate raises the TA. So, adding cyanuric acid has no net effect on TA.
The rule that I use is that if the pH is constantly going too high, the TA is too high.
If the pH is constantly going too low, the TA is too low.
If the pH is stable, the TA is good."