ph Dosing pump question

ChristopherDB

Gold Supporter
Apr 21, 2021
122
Florida
Pool Size
16000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Jandy Aquapure 1400
I'm reviving this thread because I'm doing an install with the Flow Cell right now and am stuck.

@tloomos in one of your photos that shows your entire equipment pad, I see your flow cell is connected to all 3 saddles AFTER the pump on the pressure side. Is this how it is supposed to be and it's working fine? Im concerned if both tubes of the flow cell are connected to the pressure side after the pump, then there won't be a any flow. I was thinking one needs to be on suction side before the pump and one after the pump in order to have adequate water flow inside the flow cell.
 
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I couldn't find a detailed diagram for the BL100 but I did for the BL120 and it shows the flow cell should have inlet installed after the pump and the outlet before the pump.
1000006707.png
 
The flow cell circulation depends on the pressure difference between the two points. The SWG cell probably creates enough restriction and pressure difference for @tloomos' setup to work.

The BL120 diagram you posted would be more reliable.

@mas985 may have thoughts.

setup-overview-small-jpg.523975
 
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Thank you both!

@mas985 yes that's the diagram. Unfortunately it isn't as detailed as the BL120.

I don't have many options due to my plumbing configuration, but I'm wondering if I'll have enough pressure differential if I have the intake to the flow cell before my cartridge filter, and the exit of the flow cell going to after the cartridge. Think there will be enough pressure differential between before/after the filter?
1000006760.jpg

I'll also have the acid injector just before the salt cell, with a check valve already behind it. Unfortunately I don't have any pipe after the salt cell to put the injector. I'll be diluting the acid 50/50. Any concerns about it being behind the salt cell? I thought maybe it'll help with the calcium buildup in the cell.
 
Thank you both!

I don't have many options due to my plumbing configuration, but I'm wondering if I'll have enough pressure differential if I have the intake to the flow cell before my cartridge filter, and the exit of the flow cell going to after the cartridge. Think there will be enough pressure differential between before/after the filter?
Putting the probe supply before the filter risks clogging the tubing with debris. All connections should be after the filter. The probe supply can be before the check valve and the return after and still have enough pressure difference.

I'll also have the acid injector just before the salt cell, with a check valve already behind it. Unfortunately I don't have any pipe after the salt cell to put the injector. I'll be diluting the acid 50/50. Any concerns about it being behind the salt cell? I thought maybe it'll help with the calcium buildup in the cell.
Putting the injector before the cell is risky. If you inject acid at too high of rate for the given flow rate in the pipe, the PH will drop very low and could damage the cell.

You really only need to have the injector for the pool so you can inject after the spa/pool valve.
 
I don't understand why you think you don't have enough room for a saddle right before the pump.

And since that is water returning from the flow cell, into the supply-side of the pump, wouldn't the risk of clogging be low, if any at all? The pump is drawing water from the pool, and so would also be drawing water from the line coming from the flow-cell. I tend to favor manufacturer's instructions (though I'll admit they are never to be trusted 100%).

Then the flow cell supply can be after the filter, as depicted in the instructions, to avoid any clogging issues on that line.
 
I'll also have the acid injector just before the salt cell, with a check valve already behind it. Unfortunately I don't have any pipe after the salt cell to put the injector. I'll be diluting the acid 50/50. Any concerns about it being behind the salt cell? I thought maybe it'll help with the calcium buildup in the cell.
Pentair injection systems temporarily shut down the SWG before injecting acid, and their instructions show the acid injector before the SWG. There is no risk to the SWG, since it is not producing while the acid is injecting. Does your system have a similar safeguard, or will it pump acid into an active SWG? If the latter is true, then I would definitely be concerned about that, and would find a way to inject acid after the SWG, though that's only marginally better. You shouldn't be putting acid and chlorine into the same pipe at the same time...
 
Come to think of it, I'm not so sure pumping acid directly into the spa is all the great either. I suppose sending a lesser amount of chlorine into a spa has a purpose. Pentair automation allows for different SWG settings for pool and spa. But do you want to be sitting in your spa while a "pool's worth" of acid is pumping into it?

I honestly don't know the best way to handle all that. I don't have a spa, so I don't have that issue. But it bears some consideration...

Perhaps the acid injector should be on the return to the pool, with some sort of flow switch safeguard on that line to disallow injection should the pool return be closed?
 
Thank you all for the responses. I'll try to answer each to better understand my situation. As usual, what was supposed to be an easy project turned into something a little more complicated.

Putting the probe supply before the filter risks clogging the tubing with debris. All connections should be after the filter. The probe supply can be before the check valve and the return after and still have enough pressure difference.


Putting the injector before the cell is risky. If you inject acid at too high of rate for the given flow rate in the pipe, the PH will drop very low and could damage the cell.

You really only need to have the injector for the pool so you can inject after the spa/pool valve.
I did have a concern about debris if it is not after the filter, but the tubing is quite larger than anything that can pass through the filter basket. I'll just need to keep an eye on the flow cell because that's where sand could accumulate.
I don't understand why you think you don't have enough room for a saddle right before the pump.

And since that is water returning from the flow cell, into the supply-side of the pump, wouldn't the risk of clogging be low, if any at all? The pump is drawing water from the pool, and so would also be drawing water from the line coming from the flow-cell. I tend to favor manufacturer's instructions (though I'll admit they are never to be trusted 100%).

Then the flow cell supply can be after the filter, as depicted in the instructions, to avoid any clogging issues on that line.
This was my preferred method but because this is 2-1/2" piping and those are couplings over 2-1/2" piping, there's no saddle big enough to go over a coupling that size. The saddles are sized for PVC pipe and not to be placed over a connection joint. Before the pump are two slip couplings that happened to be exactly the length of the 2-1/2" pipe inside of it.
Pentair injection systems temporarily shut down the SWG before injecting acid, and their instructions show the acid injector before the SWG. There is no risk to the SWG, since it is not producing while the acid is injecting. Does your system have a similar safeguard, or will it pump acid into an active SWG? If the latter is true, then I would definitely be concerned about that, and would find a way to inject acid after the SWG, though that's only marginally better. You shouldn't be putting acid and chlorine into the same pipe at the same time...
Thank you for the idea. I'll need to look into this. It looks like there is a Level Sensor input used to stop the doser if the acid tank falls below the level. I might be able to use this and connect it to somewhere in the iAqualink panel for the salt cell. I'll need it to close the contact when the SWG is running.
Come to think of it, I'm not so sure pumping acid directly into the spa is all the great either. I suppose sending a lesser amount of chlorine into a spa has a purpose. Pentair automation allows for different SWG settings for pool and spa. But do you want to be sitting in your spa while a "pool's worth" of acid is pumping into it?

I honestly don't know the best way to handle all that. I don't have a spa, so I don't have that issue. But it bears some consideration...

Perhaps the acid injector should be on the return to the pool, with some sort of flow switch safeguard on that line to disallow injection should the pool return be closed?
I didn't even think of this but it's a good concern. I can't put it on the pool return because of the spa is running it will be dosing into the line with no water flow. I'd need a flow switch like you mentioned, and hook that to the Alarm. But, there isn't any room to put the saddle for the injector anyways.

Maybe I can use the Level Sensor and have the SWG put it into alarm, and some type of output from the Jandy panel when it is in Spa mode. I'll need to research more on this. Jandy and none of the pool companies down here know this level of detail which is why I had to install all this automation myself.
 
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There is no risk to the SWG, since it is not producing while the acid is injecting.
Low PH (<7) for a SWG energized or not is still an issue IMHO. The plates can degrade with or without current due to the lower PH (i.e. metal reacts to lower PH). This is the same reasoning why you want to avoid cleaning the cell in acid too often even when it is diluted.

If you do go with an injection point before the SWG, you need to do the math, or somehow take a sample, to determine how low the PH is going into the cell.

I didn't even think of this but it's a good concern. I can't put it on the pool return because of the spa is running it will be dosing into the line with no water flow. I'd need a flow switch like you mentioned, and hook that to the Alarm. But, there isn't any room to put the saddle for the injector anyways.

Maybe I can use the Level Sensor and have the SWG put it into alarm, and some type of output from the Jandy panel when it is in Spa mode. I'll need to research more on this. Jandy and none of the pool companies down here know this level of detail which is why I had to install all this automation myself.
The controller should be able to inhibit the acid addition when in spa mode. My Hayward AquaLogic does this and it is a very old controller.
 
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Low PH (<7) for a SWG energized or not is still an issue IMHO. The plates can degrade with or without current due to the lower PH (i.e. metal reacts to lower PH). This is the same reasoning why you want to avoid cleaning the cell in acid too often even when it is diluted.
I found it interesting that Dirk mentioned the Pentair instructions have the injector before the SWG because there's still going to be low PH regardless of the cell being on or off. My pump running at low RPM does about 20gpm. With 50% diluted acid, and how slow it doses, I'm wondering what the PH would temporarily be while it is dosing. I don't even know how I'd measure that to see if it's safe or not.

I checked the Jandy instructions for their TrueDose and it is also just behind the SWG. Their solution is 4:1 ratio. It does not states if the SWG turns off during dosing.

Maybe manufacturers are not concerned about premature failure of their SWG or have determined it is safe?

The controller should be able to inhibit the acid addition when in spa mode. My Hayward AquaLogic does this and it is a very old controller.
Currently the Hanna doser is powered by the same relay as the pump, so when the pump is on, the doser is on, and will dose according to it's configuration. Do you know how the Hayward would interface with a doser to turn it off when the SWG is on?

I was thinking I could tapp into the 24v lines that go to the salt cell and connect that to a contractor that is Normally Closed, then when the SWG is on, the contactor opens and cuts power to the doser.
 
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I found it interesting that Dirk mentioned the Pentair instructions have the injector before the SWG because there's still going to be low PH regardless of the cell being on or off. My pump running at low RPM does about 20gpm. With 50% diluted acid, and how slow it doses, I'm wondering what the PH would temporarily be while it is dosing. I don't even know how I'd measure that to see if it's safe or not.
Again, if the injection is at a slow enough pace, then it should not be an issue.

I checked the Jandy instructions for their TrueDose and it is also just behind the SWG. Their solution is 4:1 ratio. It does not states if the SWG turns off during dosing.
I am assuming the ratio you are quoting is actually for the tank and not what is entering the water. That is different.

Maybe manufacturers are not concerned about premature failure of their SWG or have determined it is safe?
Or they want to sell you more SWG cells. ;)

Currently the Hanna doser is powered by the same relay as the pump, so when the pump is on, the doser is on, and will dose according to it's configuration. Do you know how the Hayward would interface with a doser to turn it off when the SWG is on?
If the dosing level is low enough, there really is no need to turn off the SWG when the acid is running.

To determine dosing levels and rates, you can use pool math for that. For example, to lower the PH in a pool that is 10k gallons by 0.5 PH points, 7.5 to 7.0, you would need 32 oz of 20 Baume acid (+- depending on other factors). This is a ratio of a about 40000:1. So if your tank is already at 4:1 dilution, then this ratio increases by a factor of 4 or 10000:1. If the flow rate into the pipe is 20 GPM, this means that the flow rate out of the peristaltic pump should not be more than about 0.002 GPM or 0.25 oz/min to limit the PH drop to 0.5. So quite slow. You could measure the rate of the dosing pump to see what they use.
 
This was my preferred method but because this is 2-1/2" piping and those are couplings over 2-1/2" piping, there's no saddle big enough to go over a coupling that size.
Ah, OK, now I get it. I missed that.

You may or may not want to, but there is a workaround. The plumber made use of the outside of all the valve ports, gluing on 2.5" couplers. But the reality is, all those valves have smaller inside diameters. You could cut off that coupler, right at where the end of the valve port is, and again right at the end of the fixture going into the pump, then glue in a length of 2" PVC pipe, to the inside of the valve port, and the inside of the pump fixture, and then you'd have a length of 2" pipe for your saddle. This is assuming the inside of each has never been used before, and are both clear of glued-in PVC pipe. You could check that visually by disassembling the valve, and pump union, to make sure the inside of each port is good-to-go.

@mas985 can advise if the very slight restriction this would create would make any real world difference or not...

The valves are designed to be able to accept both a 2" pipe and a 2.5" coupler.

jandy.png
Low PH (<7) for a SWG energized or not is still an issue IMHO. The plates can degrade with or without current due to the lower PH (i.e. metal reacts to lower PH). This is the same reasoning why you want to avoid cleaning the cell in acid too often even when it is diluted.
I've always assumed that the amount of flow through the SWG is high enough that the amount of acid being added, at the rate it's being added, is small enough, and happening fast enough, that damage to the SWG plates would be negligible. I don't have any proof of that, just an instinct.

I found it interesting that Dirk mentioned the Pentair instructions have the injector before the SWG because there's still going to be low PH regardless of the cell being on or off. My
The damage to the plates aside, I think the primary reason they engineered this is to avoid mixing acid and chlorine together, which forms a toxic gas. I don't actually know this for sure, just another assumption of mine, but we've been taught never to mix those two chemicals, even under the surface of the pool water. Remember? Dose chlorine and acid at least 15 minute apart? Well, pumping acid into a chlorine-producing SWG is mixing them together about as good as one could.

pump running at low RPM does about 20gpm. With 50% diluted acid, and how slow it doses, I'm wondering what the PH would temporarily be while it is dosing. I don't even know how I'd measure that to see if it's safe or not.
Would this work? While the flow from the return manifold, while the acid was also passing through it, would be divided between all the returns, the return closest to the pad would get the brunt of the mixture. If that return has an eyeball fixture, and therefore a 1.5" threaded recepticle, if would be fairly easy to temporarily remove the eyeball and attach a PVC threaded adapter, which you could then run out of the water with a hose or PVC pipe, and then collect that water for pH testing.

Mark has the math for you, which is likely simpler, but actually testing the water would tell the real-world story. The pic you posted doesn't show all of the return manifold. If there is a way to shut off all but one return, so much the better.

Maybe manufacturers are not concerned about premature failure of their SWG or have determined it is safe?
Or they want to sell you more SWG cells. ;)
This is a good example of what I meant by "I'll admit [manufacturers] are never to be trusted 100%." Just how much they'd care about premature wear on a product they profit from greatly by selling you another one, unfortunately can't really be known...
 
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I'm not following along 100%, specifically about which system you actually have, but this jumped out at me:
Screen Shot 2024-12-15 at 7.30.46 PM.png
the optional flow detector. Does this mean the system has some way to wire up a flow detector switch to it? And honor it? Because if so, then installing one on the pool return (isolated from the spa returns), would keep the system from injecting either acid or chlorine unless the return manifold was set to "pool."

I think you mentioned that there is no room for one, but as I just described about the saddle installation, where there's a will, there's a way! ;) Post a pic of the entire return manifold so we can see what might be possible.

This would mean, of course, that you wouldn't be able to dose your spa directly with the SWG. You'd have to rely on circulating pool water through the spa to keep it chlorinated. I'm not a spa guy, so I don't know the ramifications of that limitation.

Sorry, just spitballing with ya, so some (most?) of my input might not be useful...
 
Finally got this installed after waiting months for the correct injector saddles from Hanna.

I was very concerned that having both saddles on the pressure side wouldn't create enough pressure differential, allowing water to enter the flow cell and then exit. After installing everything, I was correct and the water just sits there in the flow cell. Hanna said close the ball valve a little on the exit side but that doesn't help.

I'm thinking the only way to get this to flow is to have a lower pressure on the exit line and high pressure on the entrance line. Is there an in-line device I could put on one of the lines to reduce the pressure?
 
Speaking of principles... how about Venturi?

I have an EZ-Flo Fertigation Injection System. At its core, it's a tank through which my irrigation water routes. The flow of water comes from and returns to the same pipe, through 1/4" tubing. The flow branches off the main line, and then goes through a tank (full of liquid fertilizer), then back to the same main line. This is achieved by a type of injector that has a diagonal cut on the end of it. There are two of these fittings. One diagonal faces the flow, the other faces away. This creates enough differential to get the flow to branch off. They call it a "venturi-fitting." Perhaps that fitting, or at least something that creates this Venturi effect, could be used in your application. This guy:

Screen Shot 2025-02-25 at 10.50.30 AM.png
The two venturi fittings are mounted very close to each other, but they work just fine:


venturi_fittings.png
They wouldn't have to be on either side of a valve, that's just how EZ-Flo combines the fittings with a system shut-off valve.
ez-flo-main-line-dispensing-system-7.jpg
 
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I just noticed, in the pic above, that the valve is a different size than the two PVC fittings on either side. I'll have to go out and see if mine is like that. Perhaps they are combining the two principles, the Venturi I mentioned with the Bernoulli that @ajw22 is citing.
 
. Perhaps they are combining the two principles, the Venturi I mentioned with the Bernoulli that @ajw22 is citing.

Venturi is an implementation of the Bernoulli principle.

 
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