Air bleed into pump

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bakerj7

Bronze Supporter
Jun 17, 2024
39
Cave Creek, AZ
Pool Size
11000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair iChlor 30
I have an air bleed somewhere in my system. Bubbles are ejected from floor/spa jets. I've read durn near every article here and am still stuck.

Based on posts in this forum, I have tried the following.
I replaced both O-rings on pump, inlet and outlet cuz the outlet was leaking. Now no leak. Got that fixed.
If I start pump, let it run a few minutes (usual bubbling on startup), and release trapped air from sand filter using release valve, then no bubbles for a while. Come back 10 minutes later, open release valve, more air comes out. So it's coming in and building up somewhere.
I can see air in the pump through the pump lid, and in check valves anywhere water is flowing in the system.
I've positioned valves to take water in from floor only, pool skimmer only, and spa only. Still bubbles. That narrows down the possible culprits to the jandy valve and pipes closest to the pump inlet.
I removed/lubed/reinstalled O-ring on pump lid.
I removed and replaced electric jandy valve assembly closest to the pump inlet. Did not remove/replace O-rings cuz there was water flowing out of that junction from the pool and I wasn't sure if that was normal (it is, sometimes) so I put it back on with alacrity.
The o-rings appear to be in good shape, still have tension, and I removed some grit when dis/reassembling.
I sprayed shaving cream all over every connection going from the jandy valve to the pump. No apparent in-suck of cream.
I tried running hose water over every connection, still bubbles.
When I stop the pump, there is no squirt, leak, or drip of water anywhere.

At this point, I could take a shot in the dark and replace all the o-rings in the remaining usual suspects: pump lid and jandy valve. But I'd rather not start just randomly replacing stuff hoping it'll help. That can be a long, expensive, troublesome road.

Are there any other ways to determine where the leak is, other than random part replacement? Any other symptoms I could look for? Other tests besides shaving cream?

Totally at a loss here, desperate for help. I suspect most pool techs would just replace those O-rings (usual suspects), charge me buncha $, and it might not even fix it.
 
Where is 85331?

O rings shrink in the cold and leak. That is how we lost the Challenger Space Shuttle.

It is probably a leaking O ring in a diverter valve.

Valve actuators do not cause leaks.

Typical techniques for finding an air leak are putting shaving cream on areas and see where it is sucked in, pouring water from a hose and seeing if it clears air bubbles, or wrapping areas in Saran Wrap which will seal air leaks and then unwrap one area at a time until you isolate the problem area.
 
Cave Creek, AZ. temps lately running about 40-70. hard freeze coming this week.
Already tried to the first two. Will try plastic wrap.
I can't definitely say the problem developed when the temps dropped, but maybe. Good theory.
 
No luck with plastic wrap. Bubbles continued. Wrap, water, foam tests did not indicate a leak.
When O-rings shrink in cold weather, will they appear normal and healthy? I guess it wouldn't look any different from a regular good o-ring. It's just smaller, which can't be determined from looking at it, I'd have to (hypothetically) use a caliper on it.
I still have the same quandary - replace O-rings in a diverter and pump cap even though no tests indicate a problem. Shot in the dark. Albeit, a shot at the usual suspects.
 
bakerj7 said:
No luck with plastic wrap. Bubbles continued. Wrap, water, foam tests did not indicate a leak.
When O-rings shrink in cold weather, will they appear normal and healthy? I guess it wouldn't look any different from a regular good o-ring. It's just smaller, which can't be determined from looking at it, I'd have to (hypothetically) use a caliper on it.
I still have the same quandary - replace O-rings in a diverter and pump cap even though no tests indicate a problem. Shot in the dark. Albeit, a shot at the usual suspects.
Click to expand...
Which pump do you have? How is the plumbing into the suction port done? Is it a union? If so how tight is it? Is the O ring good?
PVC adapter or nipple threaded directly? Holding the pump can you see movement between the plumbing and pump-pot if you try to "wiggle" the plumbing? If so, seal it with some silicone sealant. If it is a PVC adapter it has likely shrunk in the Arizona heat and will leak air or will have the same issue if you have an attached spa that is in use. It can also happen if the adapter or nipple is CPVC (usually grey).

Have you checked the pump-pot drain plug? There is usually an O ring there as well and that can be the source of air in a system. If the ring is bad, the plug can be wrapped with a few wraps of Teflon tape and reinserted. Use a bit of silicone sealant if you can and that eliminates that area as the issue.

How old are the valves? The most common suction leak, after the pump lid, is the stem O rings on a diverter valve or valves that are in front of a pump. You can remove the rings, clean the diverter, lube the shaft, install the rings, whether old or new, lube the rings again, wrap two turns of Teflon tape over them, lube the tape, re-assemble.

O rings get old and stiff, and the cold weather makes it worse. Often overlooked is the lid itself which will wear a little bit or, in very hot conditions, actually get grooves that the O rings will fit into and then not seal as well. The Teflon tape takes up the slack. Doesn't always solve the problem, but usually eliminates the valve lid as the culprit.
 
Pentair vs flopro
Please re-read original post, some questions answered there.
No wiggle.
Valve looks original, 18 years. Don’t know if o rings are original.
Don’t know what a pump pot drain plug is.
The bubbles appear with actuator valve (and other valve to the right) in any position.
 

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Pump pot drain - plug just below the pump basket housing (that's the pump pot). There are two drains on your pump. Both can leak air without leaking water.
If the leak shows with the suction valve (the one with the actuator on it) in any position, change the O rings. When I do a job like this, all O rings in all valves are replaced. They are inexpensive and can be generic, all modern diverter valves use the same O rings. You can remove the screws with a power screwdriver, but don't use it to re-install them. Its too easy to crack an older valve body with overtightening.
 
I replaced o rings in pump cap and actuated valve. No help. Old rings were taut with no visible defects or debris.
I found the drain plug. It was loose. I removed it, lubed the o ring, put it back in.
I shut off the solar heater , fewer bubbles.
I stopped the SWCG. No help.
When the pump starts up, I let it run a few minutes and bleed off air from the sand filter. I still see air in the pump pot, but no bubbles elsewhere. Problem fixed? Nope. After about 5 minutes, suddenly they're there. I can hear them, see them in the check valves, and out the jets.
If it were a small leak, wouldn't it gradually build up? Why suddenly after five minutes?
Replacing the orings was cheap. If I keep randomly replacing stuff, it's going to get expensive - entire diverter valve, pump lid, etc.

What if I tried putting some silicone sealant around the pipe joints and see what happens? It's not a permanent fix, but it might at least indicate if/where there is a problem. Some of those pipe joints are looking worn.
 
I put some silicone sealant around two of the pipe connections going into the pump that looked pretty old and had visible gaps in the pvc glue from years of wear. Unable to tell if those gaps go all the way thru. But today, so far, there are no more bubbles. So perhaps one of those pvc connections is really old and the cement is degrading. Temperatures can fluctuate a lot here with the seasons (such as they are), and it's been 18 years, and these pipes are exposed to full sun part of the day.
This morning I found a small drip and puddle from the pump intake collar. I need some schooling on this one.
There had been a leak in the top, outgoing collar from the pump. I replaced both o-rings in pump input and output. They seemed fine. But obviously not because of the drip I saw this morning. I am accustomed to o-rings requiring some stretching to get it over/in wherever it goes (like the pump lid), and it then has a tight fit. These do not. They seem the same size, or even a bit larger, than the groove on the connecting piece. I can work them in there, but they do have a tendency to bulge up a bit before I tighten down the collar. This doesn't seem right.
 

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I see that information below my avatar/username, and also for other users. Are y'all not able to see that? Do I have some privacy setting blocking it?
 
bakerj7 said:
I see that information below my avatar/username, and also for other users. Are y'all not able to see that? Do I have some privacy setting blocking it?
Click to expand...
What you see is the Profile which is a different section then the Signature.
 
What I meant was to click on your profile at the top right and then move down to Signature and enter all of your pertinent information there. The three lines you show is not all that you have. View our signatures and you'll get the idea. It's your choice though as long as you're ready for folks to ask what you have in certain situations.
 
TinFoilHat said:
That's my view as well, I just thought it could be more complete, but maybe it's enough.
Click to expand...
It is not. But if people choose not to cooperate with a proper location or signature they end up with sub-optimal advice. It’s their loss.
 
Do you have a greased Jandy or a never-lube? I’m thinking if the grease cup isn’t full, you could be sucking in air through there. If it’s been converted to a neverlube there should be a plug instead of a grease cup that I wouldn’t expect to leak.

I’ll wait for someone else to validate whether or not this is a crackpot theory…
 

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