White scale everywhere

[LunaBuna]

I live in Florida and got a brandnew 14 gallon saltwater pool with pebbletec finish (midnight blue) around 2 years ago.

I noticed a year later a white scaling everywhere in the pool surface. Assumably it is calcium.
I used a punice stone to manually remove the scaling. It worked but would be far too labor expensive to clean the entire pool that way.

Now in the last few weeks I worked with a pool technician to help me. He made me aware that the pool calcium level is super high with 600ppm. So I drained part of the water and refilled it, calcium is now at 300ppm.
He did an in water acid wash first. It didn’t take any of the scaling off.
Then he tried the jack’s magic product. After using the test kit on the sunbed area, it looked like the green copper and scale stuff would work.
2 weeks into the treatment, none of the scaling came off. The only thing that happened is my total chlorine went sky high up to 14

He also drained the spa, and did a direct acid wash there, most of the scaling came off. But he was concerned that it takes off too much of the surface as some “blue spots” are visible. I think the spa finish now looks like it is supposed to look. On the sunbed, some of the scaling came off too by directly pouring acid there.
After spending a lot of money on chemicals to rebalance the pool after the jacks magic treatment, the water is finally balanced again.

Now looking back, I think the pool had a bad startup as I remember some of the white areas were there early on. Back then I was not that familiar with this, so I didn’t mention it to the builder company. Now I am out of warranty.

I am at a point now where I think the only solution for my pool is an acid wash.

Does anybody have other recommendations or any feedback? Thank You!!

 

[kimkats]

Hi and welcome to TFP. You have come to the right place to get your pool fixed up AND kept up.

So your first job is to get a good test kit. I know you do not want to spend any more money right now but................not being able to test your own water may be part of what got the pool looking like it does I know the pool store will test your water for "free" but is it really free if you end up buying overpriced pool products and your pool plaster looks like it does? Here at TFP we use stuff like baking soda and liquid chlorine you can buy at Walmart..........how neat is that???

Here are the test kits we use: Test Kits Compared

 

[jesse-99]

On new newly finished pool plaster, (depending on the startup type, or in some cases, lack thereof completely) it is common to find white spotting or a white cloudy-like finish in areas (sometimes) because of the plaster mix having too much calcium chloride which might have been added as an accelerant to help harden the surface quicker, or because of how water might have been added and then troweled, etc.

Over time that can very slowly diminish on its own. Another cause (and likely -your- cause if I had to venture a guess) of plaster surface discoloring from a darker color plaster to a lighter color plaster, going more white/tan/gran color over time, is the process of calcium hydroxide being converted into calcium carbonate, which in short, forms scale on your new pool surface. Ugh. This can be identified with Jack's #2 Copper and Scale remover (they offer small cheap testing packs for this) and also identified because your previously very smooth plaster, may start to not be as smooth anymore and start to feel very rough and sandpapery (if that's a word).

There are ways to remedy this... Some of which include:

• Using Jack's #2 Copper and Scale Remover treatment -- which can be successful, but also be a real PITA as well, and requires you to brush a LOT and also remove your pool's heater and SWCG's from your plumbing (if you have those) during the treatment.
• Draining your pool and acid washing your pool (preferably with a light 25/75 mix of MA/water mix and not 100% MA) --- this will undoubtedly eat up a bit of your plaster too in the process, so be careful how often and how heavy your acid washes are. FYI - in general, TFP users typically avoid recommending acid washing because of this, but, it can be useful given the right circumstance and given you understand the risks(=).
• Draining your pool and Power sanding / Wet Polishing your plaster (50 or 100 grit diamond cut pads) is perhaps the biggest effort solution, but also the -safest- solution to maintain integrity of your plaster as well. This is both time consuming, and a LOT of hard work, but the results will be worth it. *NOTE OF CAUTION -- I DON'T KNOW IF THIS CAN BE DONE ON PEBBELTEC SURFACES? Need someone else to advise here to be sure*
• You can remove calcium carbonate by use of some strong arms and pumice stone if it's small areas only you need to treat.
• Running your pool at a -.6 or so CSI for several months, and brushing daily, to break down the calcium carbonate scaling from your plaster and let it be absorbed into the water. Typically very safe, but NOT quick at all.

Whatever you decide, be sure to TEST a small area first either with Jack's #'2 or a bit of MA before you proceed with any decision, because if Jack's #2 or an MA test has NO EFFECT on what you believe to be calcium carbonate, then it's NOT calcium carbonate, and instead might be colored pigment in your plaster that is NOT colorfast, and what's happening instead is that the chlorine in your water is slowly whitening your non-colorfast pigment in your pool plaster over time, and that... would suck because there's nothing you can do about that I believe. I doubt that's your issue however, based on pictures you posted.

Chances are that it's calcium hydroxide being converted into calcium carbonate, which can be remedied via one of the bullet points above. I could be wrong, but I think darker colored plaster (deep blues, blacks, etc.) make the calcium carbonate staining a lot more, noticeable? Makes me wish I had gone with a white or very light colored plaster when I had mine redone 20 months ago....

 

[jesse-99]

Also...Just because you acid washed the spa and it looks great again now (nice picture btw!) doesn't mean that the same calcium carbonate staining that was just removed with your acid washing won't come back again over the next 2-3 months. Be sure to take pictures of the spa now and weekly as well, so you can see the trending and if any lightened discoloring comes back again slowly over time. As I've learned myself, the natural process of calcium hyrdoxide in the plaster coming out and converting to calcium carbonate staining -can- still occur even though your plaster is 2 years old now. However the good news is, it should be much more minimized not at this point and moving forward.....

Out of curiosity if the spa plaster surface still really smooth or is it gritty, rough and like sandpaper now? That will clue you in on how much plaster was etched/removed during the acid wash. If it's still relatively smooth, that means the acid wash itself was less harsh overall, which is a good thing,

 

[LunaBuna]

Thanks @jesse-99

On new newly finished pool plaster, (depending on the startup type, or in some cases, lack thereof completely) it is common to find white spotting or a white cloudy-like finish in areas (sometimes) because of the plaster mix having too much calcium chloride which might have been added as an accelerant to help harden the surface quicker, or because of how water might have been added and then troweled, etc.

Over time that can very slowly diminish on its own. Another cause (and likely -your- cause if I had to venture a guess) of plaster surface discoloring from a darker color plaster to a lighter color plaster, going more white/tan/gran color over time, is the process of calcium hydroxide being converted into calcium carbonate, which in short, forms scale on your new pool surface. Ugh. This can be identified with Jack's #2 Copper and Scale remover (they offer small cheap testing packs for this) and also identified because your previously very smooth plaster, may start to not be as smooth anymore and start to feel very rough and sandpapery (if that's a word).

There are ways to remedy this... Some of which include:

• Using Jack's #2 Copper and Scale Remover treatment -- which can be successful, but also be a real PITA as well, and requires you to brush a LOT and also remove your pool's heater and SWCG's from your plumbing (if you have those) during the treatment.
• Draining your pool and acid washing your pool (preferably with a light 25/75 mix of MA/water mix and not 100% MA) --- this will undoubtedly eat up a bit of your plaster too in the process, so be careful how often and how heavy your acid washes are. FYI - in general, TFP users typically avoid recommending acid washing because of this, but, it can be useful given the right circumstance and given you understand the risks(=).
• Draining your pool and Power sanding / Wet Polishing your plaster (50 or 100 grit diamond cut pads) is perhaps the biggest effort solution, but also the -safest- solution to maintain integrity of your plaster as well. This is both time consuming, and a LOT of hard work, but the results will be worth it. *NOTE OF CAUTION -- I DON'T KNOW IF THIS CAN BE DONE ON PEBBELTEC SURFACES? Need someone else to advise here to be sure*
• You can remove calcium carbonate by use of some strong arms and pumice stone if it's small areas only you need to treat.
• Running your pool at a -.6 or so CSI for several months, and brushing daily, to break down the calcium carbonate scaling from your plaster and let it be absorbed into the water. Typically very safe, but NOT quick at all.

Whatever you decide, be sure to TEST a small area first either with Jack's #'2 or a bit of MA before you proceed with any decision, because if Jack's #2 or an MA test has NO EFFECT on what you believe to be calcium carbonate, then it's NOT calcium carbonate, and instead might be colored pigment in your plaster that is NOT colorfast, and what's happening instead is that the chlorine in your water is slowly whitening your non-colorfast pigment in your pool plaster over time, and that... would suck because there's nothing you can do about that I believe. I doubt that's your issue however, based on pictures you posted.

Chances are that it's calcium hydroxide being converted into calcium carbonate, which can be remedied via one of the bullet points above. I could be wrong, but I think darker colored plaster (deep blues, blacks, etc.) make the calcium carbonate staining a lot more, noticeable? Makes me wish I had gone with a white or very light colored plaster when I had mine redone 20 months ago....

Thanks!
Yes, we did the Jack's #2 Copper and Scale Remover treatment already, but without much succes. None of the scaling came off. We also did the test kit before, it came back successful for Jack's #2 Copper and Scale Remover treatment, so I don’t know what happened here.

 

[jesse-99]

That's really strange the test was successful but after 2 weeks you didn't see improvement. Who did performed the treatment, you or your pool maintenance guy? Is it possible someone didn't follow the directions properly or something was missed? Was enough Jack's #2 added during the treatment? IIRC the treatment directions for Jack's #2 are pretty cumbersome, including lowering TA and pH a *LOT* --- do you happen to know if that was done? Did you call Jack's to get their input (they will offer assistance over the phone if you by their product and things don't go as expected)? Were you regularly brushing during the treatment? Just spitballing ideas here, especially if the test itself was successful in removing the scale as you mentioned... Hmm.

 

[LunaBuna]

That's really strange the test was successful but after 2 weeks you didn't see improvement. Who did performed the treatment, you or your pool maintenance guy? Is it possible someone didn't follow the directions properly or something was missed? Was enough Jack's #2 added during the treatment? IIRC the treatment directions for Jack's #2 are pretty cumbersome, including lowering TA and pH a *LOT* --- do you happen to know if that was done? Did you call Jack's to get their input (they will offer assistance over the phone if you by their product and things don't go as expected)? Were you regularly brushing during the treatment? Just spitballing ideas here, especially if the test itself was successful in removing the scale as you mentioned... Hmm.

Thanks! Yeah the pool guy did the treatment aka adding the chemicals, but he kind of left it up to me to maintain the next couple days. He put in a big and a small bucket of the green product, and the magenta. He also added some acid.
He also told me to shock the pool in a few days, which I found out shouldn’t be done. Yes I brushed daily.
I also think it was the first time, the pool guy did this, so he seemed not super familiar.
I spoke to jacks magic like you said, but their only response was to double the product amount next time we try.

 

[LunaBuna]

Also...Just because you acid washed the spa and it looks great again now (nice picture btw!) doesn't mean that the same calcium carbonate staining that was just removed with your acid washing won't come back again over the next 2-3 months. Be sure to take pictures of the spa now and weekly as well, so you can see the trending and if any lightened discoloring comes back again slowly over time. As I've learned myself, the natural process of calcium hyrdoxide in the plaster coming out and converting to calcium carbonate staining -can- still occur even though your plaster is 2 years old now. However the good news is, it should be much more minimized not at this point and moving forward.....

Out of curiosity if the spa plaster surface still really smooth or is it gritty, rough and like sandpaper now? That will clue you in on how much plaster was etched/removed during the acid wash. If it's still relatively smooth, that means the acid wash itself was less harsh overall, which is a good thing,

The spa plaster actually feels smooth and much “cleaner” to me now.