Make sure you use a nice straight guide rail/board/etc to run the saw against. Chalk lines disappear when a wet concrete saw is running over them.
Pool coping all came out
- Thread starter palmtreeguy
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- coping expansion joint
Alright, I do have one more for you guys...
Hardscaper came over regarding cutting a 1/2" channel to make my expansion joint. He pointed out that a lot of my deck stones are thin where they would need to be cut, and would pretty likely break. Others are mortared in place and might break when taking them out and require extra work (e.g. for skimmer, etc). So, I would have to buy new stones + extra labor where they break, and they would also be of different color since the current ones have 15+ years of fade in them.
The alternative:
The coping stones are already all out, cleaned, and well ordered in the backyard. He said it would be WAY easier and safer (for breakage) to cut off 1/2" in the back of them instead. Now I know this is generally not recommended because the coping should match the beam, but, is that OK in my particular case? Essentially the deck stones would remain where they are (at edge of beam), and the 1/2" taken off is just over the beam edge, as the expansion joint. The expansion joint would run the height of the mortar & coping, while the deck stones sit flush with it, never pushing against the beam itself. Would be a lot easier and cheaper. To quote ajw22's earlier diagram, it looks to me like my deck stones are actually flush with the "leveling mortar" layer (they don't sit on and push against the beam). See attached picture for what seems to be my case (how "E" does not sit on the beam, nor pushes against it).
Would this alternative remain structurally sound?
(To give a slight update on the coping stone/beam length match, the coping stones as is are about the length of the beam on average, but the beam is not uniform and is slightly shorter/longer than the deck line in places, by up to an inch).
Hardscaper came over regarding cutting a 1/2" channel to make my expansion joint. He pointed out that a lot of my deck stones are thin where they would need to be cut, and would pretty likely break. Others are mortared in place and might break when taking them out and require extra work (e.g. for skimmer, etc). So, I would have to buy new stones + extra labor where they break, and they would also be of different color since the current ones have 15+ years of fade in them.
The alternative:
The coping stones are already all out, cleaned, and well ordered in the backyard. He said it would be WAY easier and safer (for breakage) to cut off 1/2" in the back of them instead. Now I know this is generally not recommended because the coping should match the beam, but, is that OK in my particular case? Essentially the deck stones would remain where they are (at edge of beam), and the 1/2" taken off is just over the beam edge, as the expansion joint. The expansion joint would run the height of the mortar & coping, while the deck stones sit flush with it, never pushing against the beam itself. Would be a lot easier and cheaper. To quote ajw22's earlier diagram, it looks to me like my deck stones are actually flush with the "leveling mortar" layer (they don't sit on and push against the beam). See attached picture for what seems to be my case (how "E" does not sit on the beam, nor pushes against it).
Would this alternative remain structurally sound?
(To give a slight update on the coping stone/beam length match, the coping stones as is are about the length of the beam on average, but the beam is not uniform and is slightly shorter/longer than the deck line in places, by up to an inch).
Attachments
If the deck can touch the bond beam or coping stones, you’ll have a problem.
You don’t need to remove the decking stones to cut them. It’s a $75 wet-saw rental and a long straight 2x4 with someone standing on each end to keep it from moving around.
Right; so the deck stones wouldn't touch the bond beam for either way that I make that expansion joint (cutting deck vs coping). Before I started all this, the deck stones were essentially sliding over the beam onto the coping stones (they were touching because of no expansion joint), and all coping stones had popped out.
The only thing if I cut the coping stones (instead of the deck stones) is that the deck would in theory slide up to 1/2" over the beam if it were to expand (but without touching it), as opposed to expanding starting from 1/2" away from the beam up to flush with the beam (if that makes sense). As far as I understand either of these scenarios would work, unless I'm overlooking something, so cutting the coping would be a lot easier for me practically.
Regarding cutting deck stones: some of the deck stones are loose and easily slide off, some are only 1.5" inch large, other include thin corner elbows... cutting 1/2" would break at least a few of those and make matters worse I think. There's also a lot of sharp corners (and waterfall in the way) so cutting things in place is not as ideal as I hoped. On the other hand all loose coping stones are straight easy lines I could do myself with a table-top tile saw and diamond blade.
That being said I just want to make sure the structural integrity would still be there if I cut the back of the coping stones.
The only thing if I cut the coping stones (instead of the deck stones) is that the deck would in theory slide up to 1/2" over the beam if it were to expand (but without touching it), as opposed to expanding starting from 1/2" away from the beam up to flush with the beam (if that makes sense). As far as I understand either of these scenarios would work, unless I'm overlooking something, so cutting the coping would be a lot easier for me practically.
Regarding cutting deck stones: some of the deck stones are loose and easily slide off, some are only 1.5" inch large, other include thin corner elbows... cutting 1/2" would break at least a few of those and make matters worse I think. There's also a lot of sharp corners (and waterfall in the way) so cutting things in place is not as ideal as I hoped. On the other hand all loose coping stones are straight easy lines I could do myself with a table-top tile saw and diamond blade.
That being said I just want to make sure the structural integrity would still be there if I cut the back of the coping stones.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,502
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
If you are going to cantilever deck stones over the bond beam you need to place plastic or roofing felt in the joint between the deck stone and bond beam to maintain the slippage.
A “decoupling” expansion joint should extend across the width of the deck stone overlap to allow the deck to move independent of the pool shell. This joint can be created with a 4mm plastic sheet or 2 layers of roofing felt underlayment.
A “decoupling” expansion joint should extend across the width of the deck stone overlap to allow the deck to move independent of the pool shell. This joint can be created with a 4mm plastic sheet or 2 layers of roofing felt underlayment.
I talked a bit too figuratively when I said the deck stones were moving on top of the beam, pushing the coping stones toward the pool; few if any deck stones are on top of the beam, currently, and if so, only because the beam is uneven. Most of them are flush with the beam. What I meant is that with no expansion joint, the deck stones expanding toward the beam were popping the coping stones. The deck stones are currently mostly not in contact with the beam (if anything, by 1/2" on top of the beam where the beam is uneven).
That being said, do you figure I should protect against the event of the deck stones sliding further onto the coping with the decoupling expansion joint you mention? That would be in addition to the standard expansion joint I am trying to make by cutting the back of the coping?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,502
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
If you have deck stones cantilevered on top of the bond beam then you should have a decoupling layer.
I appreciate your input but I'm not sure I understand the cantilever part. What I intend to do is mortar the travertine coping stones to the beam top, as they were when the pool was built. From here, if there were to be any sliding onto the beam from the travertine deck stones, it would be 1/2" onto the beam top (if I go ahead with cutting 1/2" from the backs of the coping stones for the vertical expansion joint). Is that 1/2" enough to warrant the decoupling layer you mention?
Note that a continuous rim will make a cleaner cut than a segmented blade.
The segments are more likely to cause chips.
Much appreciated. Do you reckon cutting the travertine can be done with a benchtop tile saw (Home Depot rental) if I swap their blade for what you suggest? The travertine is 1.75" thick.
A 14" blade has a 14" diameter, but you have to go by the radius, which is 7" and then you have to account for the guards, so a 14" blade might only have a useable cutting depth of 4.5".
In any case, ask the rental people about which saw will work for your application given the dimensions of the stones.
The key to cutting without chipping is to go slow and not force the blade.
Wet cutting is better if the saw is wet rated.
A segmented blade can make smooth cuts if you are very experienced, but a continuous blade is more likely to make a smooth cut.
In any case, ask the rental people about which saw will work for your application given the dimensions of the stones.
The key to cutting without chipping is to go slow and not force the blade.
Wet cutting is better if the saw is wet rated.
A segmented blade can make smooth cuts if you are very experienced, but a continuous blade is more likely to make a smooth cut.
Last edited:
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,502
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Thanks guys. Stones are cut for the expansion joint (1/2") and I'm ready to mortar the coping back on.
I have the following question: How do I ensure the mortar does not overspill into the expansion joint and inadvertently bonds the deck /coping/beam together? I see a lot of coping installation videos for new pool constructions (empty pool and no deck), but I'm not entirely sure of the best way of doing the mortaring considering my pool is currently full, and I have a deck already that I cannot take out. Do I just be REALLY careful that I don't lay too much mortar on the beam to avoid any overspill in both front and back? I'm afraid to not lay thick enough and the coping not adhering well.
Concrete construction adhesive (the sikabond one that is immersible) is starting to look attractive again... talk me out of it if it's that bad of an idea!
I have the following question: How do I ensure the mortar does not overspill into the expansion joint and inadvertently bonds the deck /coping/beam together? I see a lot of coping installation videos for new pool constructions (empty pool and no deck), but I'm not entirely sure of the best way of doing the mortaring considering my pool is currently full, and I have a deck already that I cannot take out. Do I just be REALLY careful that I don't lay too much mortar on the beam to avoid any overspill in both front and back? I'm afraid to not lay thick enough and the coping not adhering well.
Concrete construction adhesive (the sikabond one that is immersible) is starting to look attractive again... talk me out of it if it's that bad of an idea!
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,502
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
A foam strip can be placed in the expansion joint to keep it open during construction…
www.wrmeadows.com
DECK-O-FOAM
DECK-O-FOAM Expansion Joint Filler from W. R. Meadows is ideal for use as an expansion, contraction, and/or isolation joint in swimming pool decks, curb and gutter work, driveways, sidewalks and parking decks.
www.wrmeadows.com
Oh I figured that was squeezed in after the coping was set. Would you just keep that foam strip as application protection, strip it out when the mortar is set, then squeeze in a fresh one?
Other options I'm thinking could be cardboard or thin pieces of wood like the Home Depot ruler/yardstick, but I'm wondering if there is a material made for this sort of thing.
Other options I'm thinking could be cardboard or thin pieces of wood like the Home Depot ruler/yardstick, but I'm wondering if there is a material made for this sort of thing.
Installation Instruction pdf: PRO Expansion Joint Revised 012021
Note: Do Not Store In Direct Sun
Unroll and cut to length.
Attach to adjacent material before pouring concrete.
Attachment can be made with construction adhesive, nails or staples.
Be sure that the top of the Expansion Joint is at the top of the intended concrete pour.
Expansion Joint material includes a built-in “tear-off” strip. Place “tear-off” strip facing up if caulking is desired after concrete hardens.
Put “tear-off” strip facing down if no caulking is planned.
Pour concrete and finish.
After concrete hardens, if “tear-off” strip was placed up, remove strip and seal area with appropriate caulking.
Exceeds ASTM Standard D-7174.
Note: Do Not Store In Direct Sun
Unroll and cut to length.
Attach to adjacent material before pouring concrete.
Attachment can be made with construction adhesive, nails or staples.
Be sure that the top of the Expansion Joint is at the top of the intended concrete pour.
Expansion Joint material includes a built-in “tear-off” strip. Place “tear-off” strip facing up if caulking is desired after concrete hardens.
Put “tear-off” strip facing down if no caulking is planned.
Pour concrete and finish.
After concrete hardens, if “tear-off” strip was placed up, remove strip and seal area with appropriate caulking.
Exceeds ASTM Standard D-7174.
Quick update: I finished mortaring. It was a lot of work but I'm glad I did (vs construction adhesive) so that I could level the stones, work around the skimmer better, and most of all give aslight upward angle to the coping so that drinks don't slide into the pool 
. And I gained a new skill.
I'll do the expansion joint in the next couple days. I decided to put in the backer rod AFTER the coping was mortared, and I'm glad I did as it would have complicated things.
JamesW: I saw these at Home Depot but they felt like as soon as they got squeezed they got limp, unlike a backer rod that takes back its shape. I don't know if it matters so much, but in the end, with 1/2" to work with for an expansion joint, I just used a trowel to squeeze out the mortar that came out the back when hammering down the coping. That only happened for a couple tiles considering I put more mortar at the front than the back to give that slight angle. Some mortar fell in the pool... big deal. Filter will filter.
My only cause of concern left is the "grouting". The coping stones are tight but not tight enough everywhere to have a "no grout" situation typical of travertine (as I learned). I was going to put in sikaflex self-leveling sealant on top of my backer rod in the expansion joint... should I add some between the coping stones too???
. And I gained a new skill.I'll do the expansion joint in the next couple days. I decided to put in the backer rod AFTER the coping was mortared, and I'm glad I did as it would have complicated things.
JamesW: I saw these at Home Depot but they felt like as soon as they got squeezed they got limp, unlike a backer rod that takes back its shape. I don't know if it matters so much, but in the end, with 1/2" to work with for an expansion joint, I just used a trowel to squeeze out the mortar that came out the back when hammering down the coping. That only happened for a couple tiles considering I put more mortar at the front than the back to give that slight angle. Some mortar fell in the pool... big deal. Filter will filter.
My only cause of concern left is the "grouting". The coping stones are tight but not tight enough everywhere to have a "no grout" situation typical of travertine (as I learned). I was going to put in sikaflex self-leveling sealant on top of my backer rod in the expansion joint... should I add some between the coping stones too???
Can you grout the joints? Even unsanded grout might be ok in a super thin joint.Quick update: I finished mortaring. It was a lot of work but I'm glad I did (vs construction adhesive) so that I could level the stones, work around the skimmer better, and most of all give aslight upward angle to the coping so that drinks don't slide into the pool
I'll do the expansion joint in the next couple days. I decided to put in the backer rod AFTER the coping was mortared, and I'm glad I did as it would have complicated things.
JamesW: I saw these at Home Depot but they felt like as soon as they got squeezed they got limp, unlike a backer rod that takes back its shape. I don't know if it matters so much, but in the end, with 1/2" to work with for an expansion joint, I just used a trowel to squeeze out the mortar that came out the back when hammering down the coping. That only happened for a couple tiles considering I put more mortar at the front than the back to give that slight angle. Some mortar fell in the pool... big deal. Filter will filter.
My only cause of concern left is the "grouting". The coping stones are tight but not tight enough everywhere to have a "no grout" situation typical of travertine (as I learned). I was going to put in sikaflex self-leveling sealant on top of my backer rod in the expansion joint... should I add some between the coping stones too???