Strange combination

[PoolNewt]

I am a complete newbie. Don't quite understand how my pH is on the low side - around 7.2 but my alkalinity is way too high - over 200. I probably contributed to this by adding baking soda when the pH was low to raise pH, when the alkalinity was around 90. I have since learned baking soda raises pH but also raises alkalinity a lot and should have used soda ash instead.

But what do I do now? I read to lower alkalinity, I need to add muriatic acid but that will drive the pH even further down.

I am further confused from the instructions in my HDX 5 way test kit which says "if alkalinity is more than 120 ppm ... to add 1 quart of acid until daily until alkalinity drops below 120 ppm. Do not add acid if PH is below 7.6". However it also says "alkalinity above 200 ppm indicates one or more daily additions of acid may be needed to adjust pH and destroy the excess alkalinity"

My pH is already below 7.6 but my alkalinity is over 200.

Advice please

Thank you

Notes - have an inground concrete (plaster) pool of 22,000 gallons. I use liquid chlorine. Have cartridge filters and variable speed pump.
FYI - Additional info - recent pool test by Leslie Pools showed low chlorine (I have since added chlorine to the pool), PH 7.3, alkalinity 173, calcium hardness low at 158, CYA low at 5, copper high at .4 ppm and phosphates high at 307.

 

[PoolGate]

I am a complete newbie. Don't quite understand how my pH is on the low side - around 7.2 but my alkalinity is way too high - over 200. I probably contributed to this by adding baking soda when the pH was low to raise pH, when the alkalinity was around 90. I have since learned baking soda raises pH but also raises alkalinity a lot and should have used soda ash instead.

But what do I do now? I read to lower alkalinity, I need to add muriatic acid but that will drive the pH even further down.

I am further confused from the instructions in my HDX 5 way test kit which says "if alkalinity is more than 120 ppm ... to add 1 quart of acid until daily until alkalinity drops below 120 ppm. Do not add acid if PH is below 7.6". However it also says "alkalinity above 200 ppm indicates one or more daily additions of acid may be needed to adjust pH and destroy the excess alkalinity"

My pH is already below 7.6 but my alkalinity is over 200.

Advice please

Thank you

Notes - have an inground concrete (plaster) pool of 22,000 gallons. I use liquid chlorine. Have cartridge filters and variable speed pump.
FYI - Additional info - recent pool test by Leslie Pools showed low chlorine (I have since added chlorine to the pool), PH 7.3, alkalinity 173, calcium hardness low at 158, CYA low at 5, copper high at .4 ppm and phosphates high at 307.

You should add acid to get your pH down to around low 7s, then aerate your pool to drive CO2 out of the water which will raise pH again but lower alkalinity. It is a lengthy process if your T/A is high it can take several weeks.

Lower Total Alkalinity

A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! Be sure to visit our Pool Care Basics for lots of great articles. Enjoy the forum.

 

[PoolStored]

Welcome to TFP!!!

Advice please

1. Get your own test kit. Here is a review of the kits we recommend. Link-->Pool Care Basics
2. I would, as @Texas Splash indicated, review this link while you are waiting for your kit. Link-->Test Kits Compared
3. Download pool math to your phone. It is a tool that helps you decide chemicals and how much to add. Link-->PoolMath
4. Use pool math to add 3ppm of liquid chlorine per day until your test kit arrives.
5. Chill, a high TA and a pH in the 7s is nothing to worry about, nothing bad is going to happen. We'll get you there.
6. When your test kit arrives do a full set of tests and post results here in this thread.
7. You can also read the article below. You may or may not need to do this, really depends on your TA level that YOU test with your kit.

Lower Total Alkalinity

A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.

www.troublefreepool.com

should have used soda ash instead.

The best way to raise pH is by aeration of the water. That will raise your pH gradually while not affecting your TA.
If TA is 50 or above, bring your pH up to 7.4 or so using 20 mule team Borax.....soda ash is not a good choice as it will raise the pH and raise the TA a lot.
If TA is below 50, then bring the TA up to 50-60 using baking soda and THEN raise your pH to around 7.4 using 20 Mule Team Borax.

HDX 5 way test kit which says "if alkalinity is more than 120 ppm ... to add 1 quart of acid until daily until alkalinity drops below 120 ppm

This is flawed advice. Totally depends on the rate of pH rise, and the size of your pool. To lower TA, you can follow the link I posted.

Finally, after we get your test kit, you should maintain your FC using this tool. Link-->FC/CYA Levels

 

[Jimrahbe]

PN,

As long as your pH is in the 7's, you should not worry about TA at all..

With a CYA of 5 ppm, any chlorine you add will feel harsh and will be consumed very, very quickly. You need to get your CYA up to 30 or 40 ppm.

Having low FC is the worst possible thing you can ever do. With a CYA of 30 your FC needs to always be between 4 and 6 ppm.

See this chart... FC/CYA Levels

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Mdragger88]

To add to Jim’s advice- don’t adjust cya until you have your own test kit & know the real value. Pool store cya tests are notoriously inaccurate.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Your CH is also too low which can leach calcium out of your pool walls shortening your plaster's life span.

What Are My Ideal Pool Levels?

Use our tool to find ideal chemical levels for any swimming pool. Check TFP recommended levels on pH, free chlorine, cyanuric acid, and more.

www.troublefreepool.com

Some helpful reads-->
Pool Care Basics

 

[PoolNewt]

OK – first thank you all for your help and such a quick response.

Not understanding all the chemistry, how they fit together (from what I read, a very high overall quantity of alkaline materials could cause calcium deposits on pool walls and pipes and mine was over 200 TA and yet pH on the low side of acceptability at 7.2, meaning it’s nearer to acid and trying to drop TA adding acid would take me below 7.2 that could damage pipes and fixtures with corrosion and cause filter deterioration – all scary stuff and I was getting panicky.

I talked to a pool service and they wanted $250 a month with weekly visits plus cost of chemicals to get the pool chemistry in balance – that too is scary.

But thanks to support from all who responded, especially PoolStored who reassured me to chill and a high TA and ph in 7’s is nothing to worry about and nothing bad is going to happen and ditto reassurance from Jimrahbe, I don’t need to panic and can cease worrying.

So I have taken the time reading the articles. I kind of understand a bit after reading the lower Total Alkalinty article. I’m not sure I have both problems – my pH is not rising fast, it’s on the low side of acceptable at 7.2 but I have no idea if the high TA is contributing to a high calcium saturation index.

The answer seems to be to use acid to lower TA but it will lower my pH and to use Borax which will raise pH back without raising TA as much. The other thing I need to explore is on how to aerate the water – been looking at the Trouble Free Pool articles on how to do that.

Meanwhile, I pulled the bubble pool cover off and discovered while the pool water was somewhat clear and blue in color, not green, there are clumps of algae on the bottom of the pool and on the bottom of the sides. With chlorine level so low, that was not unexpected. So that is now my first priority - get rid of the algae. I put in 4 1 lb bags of shock and 2 gallons of liquid chlorine. Hopefully that will eat up much of the algae present. Will brush and vac tomorrow. Also added 16 oz of Algicide. Will report back on what success I have of eradicating the algae presently seen,

 

[Texas Splash]

Some follow up notes:
- Algaecides do nothing to kill algae, and the SLAM Process will remove them anyway. No need to use it again.
- The PoolMath app will tell you want your CSI is.
- There is a LOT of flexibility in TA. pH is much more critical to manage.
- Follow the SLAM Process page carefully to remove the algae once and for all. It works. Just liquid chlorine though, no powders. The other products increase your CYA, and then your SLAM FC level changes.
- See the FC/CYA Levels for the proper FC level to be at.

 

[PoolStored]

Follow the SLAM Process page carefully to remove the algae once and for all. It works. Just liquid chlorine though, no powders. The other products increase your CYA, and then your SLAM FC level changes.

^^^^THIS. That blue "SLAM Process" in the quote above is a link. Print out the article, read it three times. In order to follow the process, you need to have your own test kit (see link in my original post).

 

[mknauss]

Meanwhile, I pulled the bubble pool cover off

With the pool covered, the pH is not allowed to rise. Leave the cover off during the SLAM.

 

[PoolNewt]

Wow, so much to learn.

I did get aeration running. But was overwhelmed when I found it would take 30 gallons of muriatic acid to bring down from TA 250 to 90.

I didn't know about SLAM but one of the pool services recommended using Algicide; it's expensive but he used it on a green pool and got clear water within a week and had half bottle left.. So I put it in; much of the green spots were diminished - but that may have been from the Clorox 6 in 1 shock.

I will try to use SLAM when I get the needed parts

I tried to use the calculator but it was a bit confusing and I could not answer some of the questions. Need to do some homework to use it.

Again, thanks all for response.

 

[Mdragger88]

Your ta isn’t hurting anything.
Just manage ph with acid when it rises.

Algeacide is a preventative at best - it won’t eradicate an active algae problem.
Many also add copper which can cause stains.

Algaecide - Further Reading

www.google.com

The 5 in 1 “shock” is ether adding cya (if dichlor or trichlor) which makes it increasingly harder to follow the
FC/CYA Levels
or calcium (if cal hypo) along with the fc.
Too much of either of those is a problem.
Dichlor & Trichlor are also acidic which further exacerbates your low ph.
Stick with liquid chlorine & do the
SLAM Process.
You need a proper
Test Kits Compared for this.
If you don’t have one just add 5ppm worth of liquid chlorine each day, nothing else, until yours arrives to keep things from getting worse.

As for poolmath here’s a detailed video

 

[PoolGate]

Wow, so much to learn.

I did get aeration running. But was overwhelmed when I found it would take 30 gallons of muriatic acid to bring down from TA 250 to 90.

I didn't know about SLAM but one of the pool services recommended using Algicide; it's expensive but he used it on a green pool and got clear water within a week and had half bottle left.. So I put it in; much of the green spots were diminished - but that may have been from the Clorox 6 in 1 shock.

I will try to use SLAM when I get the needed parts

I tried to use the calculator but it was a bit confusing and I could not answer some of the questions. Need to do some homework to use it.

Again, thanks all for response.

Just FYI. Pool store advice is very hit or miss. More often miss. They have a vested interest in selling you products that treat the symptoms but never address the actual problem. In most cases that advice is not compatible with TFP methods. You should decide which advice you want to take.

 

[PoolNewt]

I thought high TA was a problem (especially since mine is way over 200 - like 250 - getting tired of counting 25 drops doing the alkalinity test and at this rate testing a couple times a day, I will soon run out of solution #3)

As mentioned before, while having a high TA, I also have a low pH. From above advice, I started aerating the pool water to raise the pH. Question - how much and how long does that take? I have a 22,000 gallon pool and after aerating for 6 hours, my pH was still 7.2 (as far as I can tell, it's difficult for me to match the light yellow to an even more light yellow)

The worst part - I have to leave for about a week and was worried leaving the pool with water that could be damaging my pool. However, from the advice on this forum, it seems the focus should be on the pH and not the necessarily the total alkalinity, which is why I've been trying to raise my pH using aeration.

So ok to leave the pool with 2 ppm chlorine and pH at 7.4 but TA at 250 - this is for a week until I get back.

 

[PoolGate]

Chlorine level is dependent on CYA level. What is your CYA level? Did you add some? But yes, your pool is fine to leave as long as you have enough chlorine.

 

[Mdragger88]

Ph in the 7’s is fine - chlorine is king
Follow the chart
FC/CYA Levels.

 

[PoolNewt]

Will add another gallon of chlorine.
I don't like chlorine tabs as they put in CYA but given the last test CYA was very low, I put in some tabs to help keep chlorine stay while I'm gone.

Thanks all for help.

Will get back with all on the results of the pool after I get back in a week.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Based on your pool math logs, you just added 16lbs of trichlor. Is that accurate and how did you add it all at once?

If that is accurate, that will add 80 FC and raise your CYA by 50. That may be fine if you have zero CYA, but that is a lot to add if you have already added CYA.

Also to re-iterate what others have said, TA should be way down on your priority list. The only thing that kills algae is chlorine, and keeping your chlorine level in line with your CYA level is the #1 priority, followed by pH.
While your TA is high, the only thing high TA does is make your naturally pH rise faster. So as long as you are managing your pH, your TA will come down. I would pause on the aeration/lowering TA and focus on the other items.

 

[PoolNewt]

Despite aerating water for over 10 hours now, the pH is still 7.2
I'm now adding Borox.

mknauss said with a pool cover, the pH is not allowed to rise. Can I uncover half the pool and pH can rise? I had half the cover on during the aeration - would that be the cause for pH not rising?

Also I'm now adding Borox - will the pH not rise with the cover on even after adding lbs of Borox? I need to keep the cover on to reduce evaporation - it is windy here and I lose a lot of water if I don't keep the cover on.