Hayward Heat Master keeps tripping the breaker

[stunatu72]

Hello. I have a Hayward Heat Master HML110TA heat pump pool heater installed in 2011. A few weeks ago I noticed the breaker was tripping. I replaced the breaker for a 60A GFI after noticing we had put a 40A breaker when first installed. Same behavior: heater fan turns on fine but after a 4-5 min delay when it attempts to heat it either trips the breaker immediately or after a few minutes. Hayward indicated it is likely the compressor. Should I call a service rep to check out compressor and capacitors or kind of futile given its age? Any ideas on what to check?

 

[JamesW]

Can you show the wiring compartment with the contactor and the capacitor?

 

[stunatu72]

Can you show the wiring compartment with the contactor and the capacitor?

I’ll open it up tomorrow and take pics. Is it purely the front panel I need to remove or likely need pics of each side?

 

[1poolman1]

Hello. I have a Hayward Heat Master HML110TA heat pump pool heater installed in 2011. A few weeks ago I noticed the breaker was tripping. I replaced the breaker for a 60A GFI after noticing we had out a 40A breaker when first installed. Same behavior: heater fan turns on fine but after a 4-5 min delay when it attempts to heat it either trips the breaker immediately or after a few minutes. Hayward indicated it is likely the compressor. Should I call a service rep to check out compressor and capacitors or kind of futile given its age? Any ideas on what to check?

You should never increase the breaker size of a properly sized circuit. That's a great way to have a fire.

 

[stunatu72]

You should never increase the breaker size of a properly sized circuit. That's a great way to have a fire.

I went to a 60A breaker because the 40A one was undersized versus what was required (the label on the HP indicates 60A required). I assumed as the breaker and HP aged, that the breaker may have gotten weaker and the HP needed more current so I took a chance that this would solve the problem.

Since the breaker change the pump will heat for 10 mins before tripping when setting temp 2 to 3 degrees above actual water temp. If I set it to 10 degrees more it trips instantly when compressor turns on. Also, no error codes on HP before breaker trips. Not sure if any of this is related but sharing if It triggers some advice.

 

[ajw22]

I went to a 60A breaker because the 40A one was undersized versus what was required (the label on the HP indicates 60A required). I assumed as the breaker and HP aged, that the breaker may have gotten weaker and the HP needed more current so I took a chance that this would solve the problem.

You are missing the point. You cannot increase the size of the breaker without increasing the wire size. An oversized breaker with wire that is too small will allow the wire to catch on fire before tripping.

Circuit breakers are sized to protect the wires, not the device.

A CB should only be replaced with the same size.

If the HP begins requiring more power it should be fixed.

 

[stunatu72]

You are missing the point. You cannot increase the size of the breaker without increasing the wire size. An oversized breaker with wire that is too small will allow the wire to catch on fire before tripping.

Circuit breakers are sized to protect the wires, not the device.

A CB should only be replaced with the same size.

If the HP begins requiring more power it should be fixed.

Thank you for the feedback. I will recheck the wire gauge but I recall using a #6 AWG for a 60A relay.

 

[stunatu72]

You are missing the point. You cannot increase the size of the breaker without increasing the wire size. An oversized breaker with wire that is too small will allow the wire to catch on fire before tripping.

Circuit breakers are sized to protect the wires, not the device.

A CB should only be replaced with the same size.

If the HP begins requiring more power it should be fixed.

I will recheck the wire gauge but I recall using a #6 AWG for a 60A relay.

You are missing the point. You cannot increase the size of the breaker without increasing the wire size. An oversized breaker with wire that is too small will allow the wire to catch on fire before tripping.

Circuit breakers are sized to protect the wires, not the device.

A CB should only be replaced with the same size.

If the HP begins requiring more power it should be fixed.

Here is the HP details. I have 8AWG running from HP to a 60A circuit breaker.

 

[ajw22]

Here is the HP details. I have 8AWG running from HP to a 60A circuit breaker.

8 AWG is sketchy for 60 amps.

How long is the wire run from CB to HP?

 

[stunatu72]

8 AWG is sketchy for 60 amps.

How long is the wire run from CB to HP?

5-6 feet. 2 feet outdoors and about 3-4 feet straight up on the inside wall of the shed next to HP.

I’m ****** right now because I’ve done my homework and I agree. The initial 40A fuse was too small as well as the wire gauge. I reviewed the instructions from the pool installer and they seem to be improperly specified. We have 60A running from the house. Feels like it should have been more like 80A.

 

[stunatu72]

Can you show the wiring compartment with the contactor and the capacitor?

Here are pics of the wiring compartment. Fairly clean. There’s an outside wire feeding into the compartment that looks rusted with white stains on the side. You can see it in the outer compartment pic and then a closeup

 

[JamesW]

This (red arrow) has been leaking for a long time.

Try a new capacitor.

Maybe add a hard start kit.

Check the compressor windings to see if they are good or if they are shorted to ground.

Check the amperage on startup.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=check+compressor+hvac

 

[stunatu72]

8 AWG is sketchy for 60 amps.

How long is the wire run from CB to HP?

I appreciate the guidance everyone is providing. Thinking about it some more so please tell me if my login is wrong. I assume the CB and wire gauge has to be sized based on what is on the label, not rules of thumb folks use. I also assume based on what I’ve read that the HP compressor also has its own thermal cutoffs so matching the wire gauge to the circuit breaker is not as critical. The compressor’s internal protection would open circuits before it becomes a problem for the wires. If you look at the label, MCA is 36.2 and max breaker is 60A (The nominal power is 5600W and at 220V, it’s 25.5A draw). The way I interpret it, you need a wire gauge that handles a minimum of 36 A (MCA) so 8AWG seems to be enough and it has a length of less than 10 ft. The max breaker is 60A and that’s ok too as it’s sized larger than the MCA so nuisance tripping is avoided and not more than the max fuse size on the label. That being said, is the CB of 60A oversized?

 

[ajw22]

I appreciate the guidance everyone is providing. Thinking about it some more so please tell me if my login is wrong. I assume the CB and wire gauge has to be sized based on what is on the label, not rules of thumb folks use. I also assume based on what I’ve read that the HP compressor also has its own thermal cutoffs so matching the wire gauge to the circuit breaker is not as critical. The compressor’s internal protection would open circuits before it becomes a problem for the wires. If you look at the label, MCA is 36.2 and max breaker is 60A (The nominal power is 5600W and at 220V, it’s 25.5A draw). The way I interpret it, you need a wire gauge that handles a minimum of 36 A (MCA) so 8AWG seems to be enough and it has a length of less than 10 ft. The max breaker is 60A and that’s ok too as it’s sized larger than the MCA so nuisance tripping is avoided and not more than the max fuse size on the label. That being said, is the CB of 60A oversized?

Simply, that is not how it works.

Many very smart people have gotten together and developed the National Electrical Code (NEC) that is updated every 3 years so that electrical safety is based on science and experience and not assumptions. Electricity is very powerful and can be dangerous. Thus the safest approach is to follow the NEC either by understanding it or consulting an electrician who has studied it.

NFPA 70®: National Electrical Code®

<p>90.2(C) Installations Covered.<br /><br />This Code covers the installation and removal of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables for the following:<br /><br /> (1) Public and private...

www.nfpa.org

Circuit Breaker size is specified by the loads on the circuit from the device specifications. Many devices specify minimum circuit breaker size.

MINIMUM WIRE SIZE IS DETERMINED BY THE CIRCUIT BREAKER SIZE, TYPE OF WIRE, AND LENGTH OF WIRE. There are tables in the NEC to determine minimum wire size.

The CB is there to protect the wires from overheating and causing a fire in walls. The CB is NOT there to protect the device, that is secondary protection. You cannot expect a device to protect itself from failure.

Your Heat Pump electirical was incorrectly installed and did not follow the NEC. The use of 8 gauge wire on a short run 60 amp circuit is skirting the edge of what the NEC allows. Most electricans just will not do that and use 4 or 6 gauge wire.

 

[stunatu72]

Simply, that is not how it works.

Many very smart people have gotten together and developed the National Electrical Code (NEC) that is updated every 3 years so that electrical safety is based on science and experience and not assumptions. Electricity is very powerful and can be dangerous. Thus the safest approach is to follow the NEC either by understanding it or consulting an electrician who has studied it.

NFPA 70®: National Electrical Code®

<p>90.2(C) Installations Covered.<br /><br />This Code covers the installation and removal of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables for the following:<br /><br /> (1) Public and private...

www.nfpa.org

Circuit Breaker size is specified by the loads on the circuit from the device specifications. Many devices specify minimum circuit breaker size.

MINIMUM WIRE SIZE IS DETERMINED BY THE CIRCUIT BREAKER SIZE, TYPE OF WIRE, AND LENGTH OF WIRE. There are tables in the NEC to determine minimum wire size.

The CB is there to protect the wires from overheating and causing a fire in walls. The CB is NOT there to protect the device, that is secondary protection. You cannot expect a device to protect itself from failure.

Your Heat Pump electirical was incorrectly installed and did not follow the NEC. The use of 8 gauge wire on a short run 60 amp circuit is skirting the edge of what the NEC allows. Most electricans just will not do that and use 4 or 6 gauge wire.

Thank you. I’m actually looking for specific guidance to make changes to my setup and learn in the process. The existing heat pump has an MCA of 36A and a max breaker of 60A. No wire gauge was indicated on the Hayward label. What would have been the appropriate wire gauge to use? Everywhere I’m reading, 8AWG was sufficient for an MCA of 36A. Here’s an example: Wire Size Calculator — Electrical Guy.

 

[ajw22]

No wire gauge was indicated on the Hayward label.

It never is. Electrician is supposed to use wire tables in NEC based on CB size to determine proper gauge.

What would have been the appropriate wire gauge to use? Everywhere I’m reading, 8AWG was sufficient for an MCA of 36A. Here’s an example: Wire Size Calculator — Electrical Guy

Again, WIRE GAUGE IS BASED ON THE CIRCUIT BREAKER SIZE AND NOT THE DEVICE.

Your link says 60 amp circuit requires 4 gauge wire.

 

[ajw22]

and a max breaker of 60A.

Minimum breaker size of 60A. Breaker may be larger with appropriate wire gauge.

Your understanding and interpertations of what this electrical stuff means is incorrect.

 

[JamesW]

There are two considerations for wire size.

1) Wire ampacity rating.

2) Voltage drop.

Wires have an ampacity rating and this cannot be exceeded in any case.

There are also calculators that calculate voltage drop, which should always be less than 5%.

For long runs, voltage drop becomes the more important factor.

 

[stunatu72]

Minimum breaker size of 60A. Breaker may be larger with appropriate wire gauge.

Your understanding and interpertations of what this electrical stuff means is incorrect.

Please go back and punch in the MCA into the calculator. The manufacturer has pretty much done all the math for us. The MCA is used to calculate the wire rating. i assumed you can then size the breaker based on that while ensuring it doesn’t go over the MOP. The 60A is the max breaker value of the unit.

 

[ajw22]

The MCA is used to calculate the wire rating.

Show me that in the NEC.

The 60A is the max breaker value of the unit.

Show me that in the NEC.