Owner/Builder pool in Phoenix (Phase: Start-up!)

[thewolf56]

Well... after a couple months and a few monsoon storms that required me to get in there and dig out the rebar in several spots, we FINALLY have shotcrete!

I sprayed it down several times a day for 5 days. I feel like they did a pretty good job. It ended up being 35 cubic yards and I paid just over $12k (for those curious). Not on the cheap side, but way better than a few quotes I received.

Does anyone have an suggestions for getting this wash tub hauled out of here?

Yay! Looking good! Glad the quote came down significantly from your other quotes.

If you use the same contractor some of us did for tile/coping/deck/pebble, they hauled that away as part of the cleanup.

 

[Winter247]

Well... after SEVERAL months of waiting for our pavers, we finally got this project moving again. More grading, raised planter, riser wall for sheer, custom bench for a fire table, decking and coping. For our decking we used Artistic Pavers DesertLock Cool White. We had samples from every place possible in the Phoenix area and this was the only decking option that checked all our boxes. They retain virtually no heat and are extremely slip resistant. Seriously, it's crazy how they don't even get warm when all the other samples we had were burning hot. There were a few travertine options that weren't quite as hot as others, but they were pretty slippery. These pavers meet both specs for sure. Unfortunately they're pretty expensive and we had to wait 4 months for all our pavers to be available.

They started tile yesterday and decking might finish up today. I'll update with more photos.

Next we need a mesh pool fence and interior finish. The interior finish has been the toughest decision... that we still haven't made. We like look of pebble, but we're not a fan of the roughness. There seems to be some debate online over what's the best option for pebble but with a smoother finish. We don't want it to be plaster smooth, but we also don't want that abrasive sandpaper feel that some pebble seems to have. I've heard some contractors will polish the pebble finish to take the roughness out. Seems to be mixed feelings out there about that too.

Anyone know from personal experience the different between NPT Stonescapes (polished) vs NPT Polishscapes vs WetEdge?

Alright, the search continues...

 

[kimkats]

Loving how the decking is coming out!

 

[thewolf56]

Well... after SEVERAL months of waiting for our pavers, we finally got this project moving again. More grading, raised planter, riser wall for sheer, custom bench for a fire table, decking and coping. For our decking we used Artistic Pavers DesertLock Cool White. We had samples from every place possible in the Phoenix area and this was the only decking option that checked all our boxes. They retain virtually no heat and are extremely slip resistant. Seriously, it's crazy how they don't even get warm when all the other samples we had were burning hot. There were a few travertine options that weren't quite as hot as others, but they were pretty slippery. These pavers meet both specs for sure. Unfortunately they're pretty expensive and we had to wait 4 months for all our pavers to be available.

They started tile yesterday and decking might finish up today. I'll update with more photos.

Next we need a mesh pool fence and interior finish. The interior finish has been the toughest decision... that we still haven't made. We like look of pebble, but we're not a fan of the roughness. There seems to be some debate online over what's the best option for pebble but with a smoother finish. We don't want it to be plaster smooth, but we also don't want that abrasive sandpaper feel that some pebble seems to have. I've heard some contractors will polish the pebble finish to take the roughness out. Seems to be mixed feelings out there about that too.

Anyone know from personal experience the different between NPT Stonescapes (polished) vs NPT Polishscapes vs WetEdge?

Alright, the search continues...

I am so glad to see an update on this. I was just looking at a few of the threads I was following during my build and quite a few have stalled. Glad to see there was quite a bit of progress in the background. The deck looks great! I also see the 2 multicyclone filters in the background.

I can't say much about the differences of the finishes you mentioned, but we're happy with our stonescapes micro which the installers polished quite well on our benches, steps and baja ledge. Doesn't feel abrasive on those parts, but doesn't feel slick either, so I would imagine the polished choices above would feel even smoother.

I will make one statement of caution regarding NPT finishes that luckily has not affected me, yet. Our neighbor was building her pool at the same time with the same consultant and most of the same subs as me. She finished a little earlier than me last year. In her eyes (I haven't seen it in person), her pool finish has a lot of streaks (have been there since day 1) and she is rather displeased with it. She had NPT come out for a check for warranty and they blamed pool chemistry for the streaking (improper startup, not testing fill water, etc.) and she used Leslie's and test strips for her water testing (I have given her the information for this site a few times). Now, I'm not appalled at NPT denying coverage so far, but what they also told her regarding warranty coverage surprised me. The NPT rep told her that they will only honor a valid claim IF you use a licensed pool company that keeps documentation of all tests and chemical additions. I had never heard that and NPT's website does not state that, but after doing some searching, I did find a stonescapes warranty card that has this language in the limitations, "The pool water must be tested and documented monthly by a reputable company using a computer system. Monthly printed reports are required as documentation to initiate a warranty claim, and failure to obtain monthly water chemistry records shall void this warranty." I use PoolMath and can export the records (much more frequent than a monthly pool service), but this is something I learned in the past couple of weeks. I don't have any of these same streaks and stains issues (although I do have a recurring rust spot starting to come back after an ascorbic acid issue), so we'll see what happens.

 

[Winter247]

I am so glad to see an update on this. I was just looking at a few of the threads I was following during my build and quite a few have stalled. Glad to see there was quite a bit of progress in the background. The deck looks great! I also see the 2 multicyclone filters in the background.

I can't say much about the differences of the finishes you mentioned, but we're happy with our stonescapes micro which the installers polished quite well on our benches, steps and baja ledge. Doesn't feel abrasive on those parts, but doesn't feel slick either, so I would imagine the polished choices above would feel even smoother.

I will make one statement of caution regarding NPT finishes that luckily has not affected me, yet. Our neighbor was building her pool at the same time with the same consultant and most of the same subs as me. She finished a little earlier than me last year. In her eyes (I haven't seen it in person), her pool finish has a lot of streaks (have been there since day 1) and she is rather displeased with it. She had NPT come out for a check for warranty and they blamed pool chemistry for the streaking (improper startup, not testing fill water, etc.) and she used Leslie's and test strips for her water testing (I have given her the information for this site a few times). Now, I'm not appalled at NPT denying coverage so far, but what they also told her regarding warranty coverage surprised me. The NPT rep told her that they will only honor a valid claim IF you use a licensed pool company that keeps documentation of all tests and chemical additions. I had never heard that and NPT's website does not state that, but after doing some searching, I did find a stonescapes warranty card that has this language in the limitations, "The pool water must be tested and documented monthly by a reputable company using a computer system. Monthly printed reports are required as documentation to initiate a warranty claim, and failure to obtain monthly water chemistry records shall void this warranty." I use PoolMath and can export the records (much more frequent than a monthly pool service), but this is something I learned in the past couple of weeks. I don't have any of these same streaks and stains issues (although I do have a recurring rust spot starting to come back after an ascorbic acid issue), so we'll see what happens.

Thanks, yeah we're glad to have things moving again. It's been a LONG project.

Wow... that's crazy! I wonder what constitutes "a reputable company" for water testing? I just figured I'd be handling testing myself with TFP method / Pool Math, but maybe it's worth it to use a company initially if the finish doesn't seem quit right? hmm. Stories like that are my exact fear. Just another thing that makes the finish choice so difficult. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Winter247]

Couple update photos. Custom bench almost finished, tile, stone and more decking. Finally starting to all come together!

 

[ajw22]

The NPT rep told her that they will only honor a valid claim IF you use a licensed pool company that keeps documentation of all tests and chemical additions. I had never heard that and NPT's website does not state that, but after doing some searching, I did find a stonescapes warranty card that has this language in the limitations, "The pool water must be tested and documented monthly by a reputable company using a computer system. Monthly printed reports are required as documentation to initiate a warranty claim, and failure to obtain monthly water chemistry records shall void this warranty." I use PoolMath and can export the records (much more frequent than a monthly pool service), but this is something I learned in the past couple of weeks. I don't have any of these same streaks and stains issues (although I do have a recurring rust spot starting to come back after an ascorbic acid issue), so we'll see what happens.

Licensed pool company??? Licensed by whom?

Reputable company??? Who says a company is or is not reputable?

They setup warranty requirements that will never be able to be met so they can deny claims at their whim.

I have yet to hear anyone here who collected on a warranty from the plaster manufacturer. Their warranty is worthless.

You local Pool Builder and the plaster installer may provide warranty service to protect their reputation and not have local small claims court claims.

 

[thewolf56]

They setup warranty requirements that will never be able to be met so they can deny claims at their whim.

I don't disagree at all with that, but I had never heard anything like this before in any of my research here. It was already difficult before if you did not follow their startup procedures and had documentation proving it, but non-disclosed limitations is specifically problematic. Plus, the warranty only applies to defects in the materials (at least for stonescapes), so application issues would fall on the contractor, not the manufacturer. In the situation I mentioned, it was the installer that punted it to NPT. I'm not saying NPT is incorrect for denying the claims due to pool chemistry if that is the case (and appeared to be so from NPT's on-site water testing), but the additional requirement of a pool company needs to be readily disclosed. I don't want a pool company touching my pool unless it is a repair I cannot perform myself.

 

[ajw22]

I'm not saying NPT is incorrect for denying the claims due to pool chemistry if that is the case (and appeared to be so from NPT's on-site water testing), but the additional requirement of a pool company needs to be readily disclosed.

There is no science that supports that poor startup and water chemistry causes mottling and other cosmetic plaster problems. They are all caused by the techniques the applicators use.

Being Blamed for Plaster Discolorations? Don't Get Hoodwinked

Some newly plastered pools (including quartz and pebble finishes) may develop either color fading, white soft spotting (also incorrectly called "spot etching" by some plasterers), white streaking (in colored plaster), calcium nodules, gray mottling discoloration (of white plaster), spalling...

www.troublefreepool.com

A lot more to read in...

Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[thewolf56]

There is no science that supports that poor startup and water chemistry causes mottling and other cosmetic plaster problems. They are all caused by the techniques the applicators use.

Being Blamed for Plaster Discolorations? Don't Get Hoodwinked

Some newly plastered pools (including quartz and pebble finishes) may develop either color fading, white soft spotting (also incorrectly called "spot etching" by some plasterers), white streaking (in colored plaster), calcium nodules, gray mottling discoloration (of white plaster), spalling...

www.troublefreepool.com

A lot more to read in...

Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Yeah, I've read quite a few posts by onBalance and he is very knowledgeable on the topic when researching my build, but none of this applies to me personally as I do not have any issues with mottling or streaking on the pool surface. I also do not have any of the craters and pockets that are so commonly seen when a white light is used on the pool surface. My applicators did a good job. It was my neighbor's issue with her finish and I have not seen her pool since it was filled. I took what she told me as hearsay until I actually found the limitations on a warranty card after a google search and stonescapes does not have this limitation listed on their website. My point was that the applicator kicked it NPT and NPT denied it. Yes, NPT could have denied the claim as they do not warrant workmanship (that's on the applicator and is supported by the post you linked). They could also deny for not following their start-up requirements (regardless of the science behind it). But they also denied for what I thought was a made-up limitation. OP wants an even smoother finish than what I received and is doing an owner-build, so any headache he gets from poor workmanship is only going to be his headache. I'm not saying I still would not have gone the route I did no my finish, but I sure as heck would want to know any limitations up front (like I already knew about workmanship).

 

[surfaceofthesun]

Well... after SEVERAL months of waiting for our pavers, we finally got this project moving again. More grading, raised planter, riser wall for sheer, custom bench for a fire table, decking and coping. For our decking we used Artistic Pavers DesertLock Cool White. We had samples from every place possible in the Phoenix area and this was the only decking option that checked all our boxes. They retain virtually no heat and are extremely slip resistant. Seriously, it's crazy how they don't even get warm when all the other samples we had were burning hot. There were a few travertine options that weren't quite as hot as others, but they were pretty slippery. These pavers meet both specs for sure. Unfortunately they're pretty expensive and we had to wait 4 months for all our pavers to be available.

They started tile yesterday and decking might finish up today. I'll update with more photos.

Next we need a mesh pool fence and interior finish. The interior finish has been the toughest decision... that we still haven't made. We like look of pebble, but we're not a fan of the roughness. There seems to be some debate online over what's the best option for pebble but with a smoother finish. We don't want it to be plaster smooth, but we also don't want that abrasive sandpaper feel that some pebble seems to have. I've heard some contractors will polish the pebble finish to take the roughness out. Seems to be mixed feelings out there about that too.

Anyone know from personal experience the different between NPT Stonescapes (polished) vs NPT Polishscapes vs WetEdge?

Alright, the search continues...

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We are also in phx and in same phase of building as you are. Deciding interior color/finish has been hard. I think we are going with universal mini pebble in aqua azul (Glendale based company!)

 

[Winter247]

Tile is finished up. MOST of the tile looks great, but I'm not thrilled with all of it. Maybe I'm being too particular, but a couple spots of the step trim seem a bit lazy to me. For example, I was expecting all the step lines to end flush. Instead some are flush and some have one piece extending longer. Seems odd to me for there to be a lack of consistency. Also, 2 of the steps have 130 degree obtuse angles and the tile cuts/placement just don't mesh as well as I would have expected. I know glass tile is harder to work with and 90 degrees is easier, but I've certainly seen cleaner step trim work. Anyone have thoughts on this? Feel free to tell me if I'm being to picky.

I feel like I honestly can't gauge my own emotions about this project anymore since it's gone on for so long.

 

[kimkats]

ummmmmmmmmmmm uuuuuuuuu......................yeah some of that is bad It is like they just slapped it down to get done. I am going to pick the pics apart one by one:
-1st one where the two meet in the middle=BAD!
-2nd one end =they should have ended the long one at the same spot as the other one.
3rd & 4th ones-REALLY?? Did they even lay them out and TRY to make them look pretty?
5th & 7th ones-I see how the "cheated" with the grout =NOPE
6th one-well they tried.................but failed
spa seats look okay not up to my standards but better than the others
step one after the spa they did pretty good on 2 but blew it on the top one..............sigh.........

Now I am going to show you how someone with skills and pride in their work can do tiles:
Yes really - another Houston pool!

Now THAT is how tile should be done!!!

 

[Winter247]

So I let my tile contractor know I wasn't satisfied and emailed them some specifics along with photos containing added notations. They're going to come by tomorrow to take a look.

@kimkats Thank you for the input. I feel much less neurotic about it after seeing that someone agrees with me! The way it looks now, I could have done it myself. If I'm paying a professional to do it, I expect better detail work than that.

 

[Newdude]

I feel much less neurotic about it after seeing that someone agrees with me!

Count me in too.

If I'm paying a professional to do it,

When I finally 'lost my stuff' on my PB, I demanded to know if I was paying the 'everybody gets to learn their trade at my house' price, or the quality work price. You see, he had assured me quality work, named his price and I accepted. What ensued was everybody needing to be called back, every time. And several times a 3rd visit.

I feel you on every level. Hang in there, the finish line is in sight.

 

[kimkats]

Did you make notes on all of them to send to him? If not do so now so he can't wiggle out of any of the fixes.

 

[thewolf56]

So I let my tile contractor know I wasn't satisfied and emailed them some specifics along with photos containing added notations. They're going to come by tomorrow to take a look.

I agree with @kimkats and @Newdude. The length of the tile will make curves difficult, but the angles and uneven ends do not look good. I could understand the uneven ends if they were ending in a curve, but not like the ones you posted.

 

[Winter247]

"Alright alright alright" (insert Mathew McConaughey voice)... after making them redo it THREE times, I'm finally satisfied with the tile job. It's not perfect, but alas... beauty is not flawless. For anyone reading this who is about to start an OB pool or has already started, let this serve as an example.... DO NOT hesitate to make your contractors fix their work, even if it's multiple times. It's YOUR money and YOU have to live with the results. Take ownership in the project!

Anyway, that being said.. I'll give these guys credit, in the end they at least did what I asked. Even if it took 3 times. I know they (and I) were frustrated, but they got it done.

Next is mesh pool fence, city inspection and interior finish. I gotta say, the interior finish seems like the most nerve-racking part. It's basically the biggest gamble because it's difficult to get real world examples and the applicator seems to be the largest variable. Ugh. Currently we're thinking Stonescapes Tropics Blue with either Touch of Glass or Puerto Rico Blend (whichever allows us to add blue and light blue glass beads). Tentatively scheduled for 2 weeks from now.

 

[kimkats]

That is OH SO much better than the set of pics you showed us in the beginning! Good on you for sticking to your thoughts and making them get it right!

 

[thewolf56]

"Alright alright alright" (insert Mathew McConaughey voice)... after making them redo it THREE times, I'm finally satisfied with the tile job. It's not perfect, but alas... beauty is not flawless. For anyone reading this who is about to start an OB pool or has already started, let this serve as an example.... DO NOT hesitate to make your contractors fix their work, even if it's multiple times. It's YOUR money and YOU have to live with the results. Take ownership in the project!

Anyway, that being said.. I'll give these guys credit, in the end they at least did what I asked. Even if it took 3 times. I know they (and I) were frustrated, but they got it done.

Next is mesh pool fence, city inspection and interior finish. I gotta say, the interior finish seems like the most nerve-racking part. It's basically the biggest gamble because it's difficult to get real world examples and the applicator seems to be the largest variable. Ugh. Currently we're thinking Stonescapes Tropics Blue with either Touch of Glass or Puerto Rico Blend (whichever allows us to add blue and light blue glass beads). Tentatively scheduled for 2 weeks from now.

That looks so much better, especially in the curves. That looks like a job the contractor can be proud of now. Absolutely agree with the making them fix their work. There was a miscommunication on my deck where they didn't have it extending past one side of my original patio, but we go t it fixed before they mortared in the edges.

On the finish, the Puerto Rico Blend has blue (cobalt looking), light blue, and white iridescent glass beads. It looks awesome in my pool, especially on the baja ledge. Just make sure to pick the correct size for your stonescapes selection as they come in large and small.