Bullfrog A7 getting heater may be dry, heater too hot after running for ~20 minutes, shuts down

[bradgray]

Do you mind providing the instructions on which part to test?

Simplest is to place two probes on (in) the terminal in the spa pack, after removing the quickconnect. I can circle this for you. You'll need to make sure you have good contact with the locations on the board.

But first, for that test to tell us anything, we have to reproduce the failure:

Just completed another test:

- Tried using air compressor but it didn't look like any dust was moving around anywhere
- Equipment door completely removed / full ventilation of panel area
- Heater off
- Both pumps running

It worked fine... shut off after 30 minutes. Was able to put jets back on...

1) Let's try keeping the body panel off, and turning on the heater and see what happens.

2) Then next test, try replacing the body panel and leaving the heater off.

3) if you can't get those to kill your pump, do both together.

Once you've determined which produces the stalling more reliably, we can test the terminal.

 

[bradgray]

Next time your pump stalls, as soon after failure as possible, carefully pull/disconnect the terminal on whichever one has stopped. Follow the cord.

You'll need to remove the pump disconnect from the board, which is the left photo. I also circled the two locations you'll test in the right photo. It's the where the common (white) and Low speed (black) would connect. Have someone set the voltmeter to at least 300v and press the leads into those female slots making sure to get good contact with it. Switch that pump button on and off and watch for voltage readouts.


Again. This is only helpful if you can get the pump/s to stall again. That's the moment you'll check.

 

[bradgray]

It's worth a try, but it's sounding like you may have to replace those motors anyway if this is a known bullfrog issue.

I hate to cast generalized anecdotes. It's just something we've noticed happens on a handful of balboa and aquaflo systems.

Even with that signature hot plastic smell and warped panels, very few actually triggered thermal cutoffs. Many times that the pumps were replaced by the dealer, it was for an unrelated issue. They just added that to the list of "not supposed to happen" but the new pumps, which were always OE, would keep on doing it without new issue.

 

[Venicetub]

Next time your pump stalls, as soon after failure as possible, carefully pull/disconnect the terminal on whichever one has stopped. Follow the cord.

You'll need to remove the pump disconnect from the board, which is the left photo. I also circled the two locations you'll test in the right photo. It's the where the common (white) and High speed (black) would connect. Have someone set the voltmeter to at least 300v and press the leads into those female slots making sure to get good contact with it. Switch that pump button on and off and watch for voltage readouts.


Again. This is only helpful if you can get the pump/s to stall again. That's the moment you'll check.

Thanks. I will try to consistently reproduce. And then find a buddy to do this test. I’ll try to look at diagrams tomorrow and make sure I understand the test

 

[Venicetub]

Okay, back with some more testing data:

- Ran heater, pump 1 and pump 2 at full speed with equipment door removed - everything functioned normal, pump 1 got very hot

Waited about 15 minutes

- Put equipment door back on, turned heater off, started up pump 1 and pump 2 at full speed and both pumps turned off in less than 2 minutes

I guess I can probably now reliably trip them... seems like the pumps are getting overheated - do you think still valuable to test the terminals and the board (waiting on a buddy for this one)? Thanks again all...

 

[bradgray]

I guess I can probably now reliably trip them... seems like the pumps are getting overheated - do you think still valuable to test the terminals and the board (waiting on a buddy for this one)? Thanks again all...

Given the fact that you're looking at about $400 per pump (if you install them), I think it's worth testing the voltage to rule out the board.

 

[phonedave]

Okay, back with some more testing data:

- Ran heater, pump 1 and pump 2 at full speed with equipment door removed - everything functioned normal, pump 1 got very hot

Waited about 15 minutes

- Put equipment door back on, turned heater off, started up pump 1 and pump 2 at full speed and both pumps turned off in less than 2 minutes

I guess I can probably now reliably trip them... seems like the pumps are getting overheated - do you think still valuable to test the terminals and the board (waiting on a buddy for this one)? Thanks again all...

Given the amount of dirt that is in your enclosure (why, was there a flood?) I suggest giving those pumps a good cleaning - internally. Maybe even replace bearings.

 

[Venicetub]

Given the amount of dirt that is in your enclosure (why, was there a flood?) I suggest giving those pumps a good cleaning - internally. Maybe even replace bearings.

There wasn't a flood, lol. This is how it was when I bought it. Yeah, I am totally open to doing a cleaning. Do you have any resources or guides on how I can do this and how to replace bearings? Really open to anything as it seems weird that both pumps would break at same time...

Voltage test update:

- Measured 247V at the disconnect (sub panel) - seems fine
- Got pump 1 to stall, measured 247V when low speed was running, when triggering high speed wasn't able to get consistent reading went to 0V
- Pump 2 didn't stall, but we tested it anyways and it had the same exact behavior as pump 1

Any thought on the capacitors on the pumps?

Side note:

When pumps are running at high speed it's generating a lot of bubbles (Bromine, pH and other levels are all fine) in the tub and also coming out of the pumps it seems (I am not familiar with Bullfrog's normal pump behavior but my friend who has a Sundance said this was weird)? He is insisting that there's a way to turn the bubbles out from the jets... (I tried to attach a video)

The mystery continues. I've talked to two repair shops that said it's the pumps and that they need to be replaced but also they don't want to take the job... They also insisted cleaning the pumps wouldn't help

 

[phonedave]

There wasn't a flood, lol. This is how it was when I bought it. Yeah, I am totally open to doing a cleaning. Do you have any resources or guides on how I can do this and how to replace bearings? Really open to anything as it seems weird that both pumps would break at same time...

Voltage test update:

- Measured 247V at the disconnect (sub panel) - seems fine
- Got pump 1 to stall, measured 247V when low speed was running, when triggering high speed wasn't able to get consistent reading went to 0V
- Pump 2 didn't stall, but we tested it anyways and it had the same exact behavior as pump 1

Any thought on the capacitors on the pumps?

Side note:

When pumps are running at high speed it's generating a lot of bubbles (Bromine, pH and other levels are all fine) in the tub and also coming out of the pumps it seems (I am not familiar with Bullfrog's normal pump behavior but my friend who has a Sundance said this was weird)? He is insisting that there's a way to turn the bubbles out from the jets... (I tried to attach a video)

The mystery continues. I've talked to two repair shops that said it's the pumps and that they need to be replaced but also they don't want to take the job... They also insisted cleaning the pumps wouldn't help

- The people on here who repair tubs for a living have seen the insides of a lot more than I have, but my first reaction to your picture was "wow, that is a ton of dirt". Not dust, not cobwebs, but what looks like dirt or sand.

- What is your Calcium Hardness reading? I have an A6 with two jet pumps (I believe a 7 is the first size Bullfrog where two jet pumps are standard). Two jet pumps in that size tub have a lot of power. My tub foams as well, especially when on high. It is not a sustained foam, as soon as I kill the pumps it is gone. Keeping my CH on the high side (right now it is 370 ppm) helps to mitigate this. Not sure what you mean by "turn the bubbles out from the jets". It also depends on what jets (jet packs) you have in your tub. BF uses interchangeable jet packs. Something like the neck blaster (or whatever they call it) generates a lot more foam than say a pack designed for a lower back massage with large figure 8 rotating jets. Each jet pack also has a metering valve on it. It is the black disc at the bottom that looks like a jet with no nozzle (the neck blaster also has a second metering valve for the downwards facing shoulder jets)

- Here is a video on how to rebuild a pump motor -

That may help, or it may do nothing. When you watch this video, you can see what can happen inside, especially with a lot of dirt.

 

[Methuselah]

Voltage test update:

- Measured 247V at the disconnect (sub panel) - seems fine
- Got pump 1 to stall, measured 247V when low speed was running, when triggering high speed wasn't able to get consistent reading went to 0V
- Pump 2 didn't stall, but we tested it anyways and it had the same exact behavior as pump 1

You need a solid connection to the dmm, but voltage going away at the pump is either probe not making contact or no voltage. If it's no voltage your circuit board opened the relay or the relay contacts are bad.

You could try replacing the relay but it would take more testing to know what's going on with higher certainty.

 

[RDspaguy]

guess I can probably now reliably trip them... seems like the pumps are getting overheated

I've talked to two repair shops that said it's the pumps and that they need to be replaced but also they don't want to take the job... They also insisted cleaning the pumps wouldn't help

It seems this is a known issue for these. I would confidently say to replace them, however...

Got pump 1 to stall, measured 247V when low speed was running, when triggering high speed wasn't able to get consistent reading went to 0V

If this is accurate, you have a board issue. When you triggered high, were you testing high speed (red to white) or still on low (black to white)? If you were still on low it's ok, but if you had 0 volts on high when it should be running you have a board issue, perhaps in addition to your pump issue.
Cleaning the motors may not be of any help. The fact that nothing blew out of there suggests that they weren't running when the dirt was being deposited. Perhaps it was delivered down a gravel road with the panel off. Hard to say with a used tub, but it's definitely not normal and therefore worth considering.
By all appearances it is the pumps. The things I have suggested that you do are what I would have done if I were on the job. All of which, except rebuilding the pumps, I could have done in the first hour on site. Perhaps I am a perfectionist, I've certainly been accused of it, but I won't buy expensive parts for test purposes. I need to be 100% before I order parts, mainly because I feel obligated to give a refund if I am wrong. I have a very strict company policy against working for free, so "probably" doesn't cut it for me.

 

[bradgray]

Just had yet another XP2 kick the bucket literally yesterday. Notice the warping on the base.

 

[Venicetub]

Y'all are amazing, much appreciated...

It seems this is a known issue for these. I would confidently say to replace them, however...


If this is accurate, you have a board issue. When you triggered high, were you testing high speed (red to white) or still on low (black to white)? If you were still on low it's ok, but if you had 0 volts on high when it should be running you have a board issue, perhaps in addition to your pump issue.
Cleaning the motors may not be of any help. The fact that nothing blew out of there suggests that they weren't running when the dirt was being deposited. Perhaps it was delivered down a gravel road with the panel off. Hard to say with a used tub, but it's definitely not normal and therefore worth considering.
By all appearances it is the pumps. The things I have suggested that you do are what I would have done if I were on the job. All of which, except rebuilding the pumps, I could have done in the first hour on site. Perhaps I am a perfectionist, I've certainly been accused of it, but I won't buy expensive parts for test purposes. I need to be 100% before I order parts, mainly because I feel obligated to give a refund if I am wrong. I have a very strict company policy against working for free, so "probably" doesn't cut it for me.

Yup - I spoke with Gecko for an hour today. Super helpful. We ran some of these tests and he was convinced board was fine. He wants me to re-confirm what you've suggested here, but the going to 0V is fine if I had the probes in the right spots because it switches from high to low, so he wasn't concerned, but wants me to re-confirm after stall.

He says this is not normal behavior, obviously, and if the pumps do overheat, the cooldown should be very quick (minutes versus half hour - hour). He said they run these all the time in super high heat in deserts (Vegas) and have no problems. He didn't seem overly concerned about the dirt either BUT did say that lack of proper venting could be a problem. Could this have been a problem with this particular Bullfrog? Is there a weird scenario in which there is all the dirt because previous owner ran the tub with the equipment door off? Just a thought that came to me now... If this is the case I'm sure other Bullfrog owners with this configuration would have known about it.

Next steps are testing amperage to see if the pumps are pulling too much amps and then maybe that will confirm pumps are bad.

I 100% don't want to buy expensive parts without knowing for certain. I'm still skeptical that both pumps would be bad, but let's say they are. What are my next steps to order reliable replacement parts that will fit those plastic lead-ins, won't be crazy expensive, and will just work? Any pointers on how to find the right ones?

I talked to a repair guy that said he can get them for me but he will charge a premium and that if I want to order myself he'll come install them.

Just had yet another XP2 kick the bucket literally yesterday. Notice the warping on the base.

Interesting... I don't see anything like this on mine, but will dig around more tomorrow. The Gecko guy did say I can try to screw off some covering on the bottom side of the cylinder and put the screwdriver in there to see if for some reason the fan isn't rotating correctly, but he thought this too was unlikely...

Thanks again y'all this has been super helpful.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

…. I have a very strict company policy against working for free …

And yet, here you are !!

Thanks @RDspaguy and @bradgray for all your amazing insights. We should set you guys up with a podcast, you could be the Click & Clack of the DIY hot tub repair world

 

[bradgray]

Y'all are amazing, much appreciated...

Yup - I spoke with Gecko for an hour today. Super helpful. We ran some of these tests and he was convinced board was fine. He wants me to re-confirm what you've suggested here, but the going to 0V is fine if I had the probes in the right spots because it switches from high to low, so he wasn't concerned, but wants me to re-confirm after stall.

Yessir.

He says this is not normal behavior, obviously, and if the pumps do overheat, the cooldown should be very quick (minutes versus half hour - hour). He said they run these all the time in super high heat in deserts (Vegas) and have no problems.

100% confirmed. Our spa water reaches 109 from ambient transfer; you can imagine how hot the cabinet would be. This is partly why we've never chased 'reasons' when motors fail. They already have to live through literally hellish conditions every summer.

He didn't seem overly concerned about the dirt either BUT did say that lack of proper venting could be a problem. Could this have been a problem with this particular Bullfrog? Is there a weird scenario in which there is all the dirt because previous owner ran the tub with the equipment door off? Just a thought that came to me now... If this is the case I'm sure other Bullfrog owners with this configuration would have known about it.

I think this is a location issue. Many of our tubs, even the spas that are on a 2nd story balconies, can get pretty dirty inside. We're used to it and we don't think twice about it. Could be desert-specific. But there are also certainly extenuating circumstances that could get your equipment bay nasty like that. The ones that are our favorite, are when its full of rat feces and torn insulation. Then we get to play around with the hanta!

Next steps are testing amperage to see if the pumps are pulling too much amps and then maybe that will confirm pumps are bad.

I 100% don't want to buy expensive parts without knowing for certain. I'm still skeptical that both pumps would be bad, but let's say they are. What are my next steps to order reliable replacement parts that will fit those plastic lead-ins, won't be crazy expensive, and will just work? Any pointers on how to find the right ones?

You can reuse the cables assuming they are not obviously deformed or melted from the excess heat. They snap on really simply inside the back of the motor housing, and inside the spa pack as you've seen. I highly suggest your replace the whole pump because the motor itself is maybe marginally less, and there are no old parts to worry about like a worn shaft seal.

LX pumps are very affordable, and I've installed a few and thought they were fine. Granted all that are running are less than a year old, so time will tell. I have quite a few replacement Aquaflo that are running great, and also a handful of Waterway pumps with the same US motors. We like to order from SpaGuts or SpaCare online stores because my wholesale pool supplier doesn't carry spa inventory. I usually get the parts in 2 days with their 5-day shipping so it's a no-brainer. I'll order control bundles from SpaGuts and my pumps from SpaCare. I'd be curious if @RDspaguy has a vendor he prefers.

Take your pump model numbers and type them into the search bar. We can help you confirm you have the right ones. Also be sure to buy a couple extra 1/4" barbs (92290101/92290040) because yours are certainly bent and about to fail because of how BF habitually runs unnecessarily short bleeder lines. These go on the transparent tubes you see on the wet-end of your pump.

I talked to a repair guy that said he can get them for me but he will charge a premium and that if I want to order myself he'll come install them.

Based on your ability thus far to do the testing we've asked of you, I'd say you're totally capable of replacing the pumps yourself. It's quite literally a matter of 2 unions and a couple of plug-n-play cords for each pump. The biggest challenge you'll have are the motor mounts on the far side of your filter pump. Invest in a flexible socket extension and save yourself the cuts and cusses. Or lift your spa slightly and go at it from underneath (you'll need to drain it to replace the pumps anyway).

 

[Methuselah]

Just a thought on "both" pumps bad. If one gets very hot, perhaps the heat coming off it is making the other one's temperature rise just enough to be an issue (replacing one might let the other live longer).

 

[Venicetub]

Just a thought on "both" pumps bad. If one gets very hot, perhaps the heat coming off it is making the other one's temperature rise just enough to be an issue (replacing one might let the other live longer).

Agreed. Just did the amp test and both pumps on high speed are pulling around 14.7 and 14.9 amps. This seems high from my understanding. The circuit board says it should be 12 max and the pump itself says high speed should be around 11.4... closer and closer to seeing that both pumps are likely bad and need to be replaced...

 

[RDspaguy]

And yet, here you are !!

Ok ********. You might have a point.

think this is a location issue

Could be. I've lived out west, but only saw a few in anything desert-like down the hill from Tahoe in Gardenerville. I'm used to nasty, but not coated in dust.

pumps are very affordable, and I've installed a few and thought they were fine.

Aqua-flo has been my main go-to for most of my 26 year career. Never had an issue. Likewise, US motor, formerly Emerson, has been my preferred motor, given that I grew up a mile or so from their StL factory.

I'd be curious if @RDspaguy has a vendor he prefers.

I like spadepot for balboa stuff, but I have no preferrence otherwise and generally shop price.

 

[phonedave]

I like spadepot for balboa stuff, but I have no preferrence otherwise and generally shop price.

I initially read that as Spade Pot and wondered what the heck that name has to do with hot tub parts.

 

[RDspaguy]

I initially read that as Spade Pot and wondered what the heck that name has to do with hot tub parts.

Yeah, it's an industry term. Now go get me the wire stretcher.