First timer advice/thoughts for AGP

[koffey]

Throw some kids in there to raise ph.

 

[Mdragger88]

So to raise ph on its own, aeration is the only way? I can't add something to raise just ph?
I've added muriatic a couple times, to keep ph at 7.6-7.8.
And the 3 B's, can you explain what they are used for.

Ph & ta are “married” as far as chems are concerned- if u add a chem (acid) to lower one the other also gets lowered
If u add a chem to raise one (soda ash, borax, baking soda) the other also gets raised in some way.
The only way to increase ph without increasing ta is aeration.

 

[phonedave]

So to raise ph on its own, aeration is the only way? I can't add something to raise just ph?
I've added muriatic a couple times, to keep ph at 7.6-7.8.
And the 3 B's, can you explain what they are used for.

Nope, nothing to just raise pH

pH and Alkalinity are two different, but related things.

pH, in simple terms, is a measure of how many hydrogen ions you have in your water. The lower the pH, the more hydrogen ions you have in your water

Alkalinity is the amount of alkaline substances that can absorb hydrogen ions. When something acidic (hydrogen ions) gets into the water, the alkaline substances can neutralize SOME of it. Some is a important concept. It is not ALL of it. It is not as if you have 1,000 alkaline molecules, so you can block 1,000 hydrogen ions, and then it stops working. It blocks a percentage. Alkalinity can also give up some of the hydrogen ions that it has captured, effectively lowering pH. TA is a buffer, it helps prevent large swings in pH, by both absorbing and donating hydrogen ions.

 

[Britali]

Unfortunately as things are that we have discovered, aeration is the safest way to raise pH without raising something else with chemicals. As far as the “3 B’s”, I was new and bought them but did not need all of them. That was the point…that I only needed bleach out of the 3 B’s (the other two were baking soda & borax). The point is you may not need all of what you thought you would…I just need the bleach (aka liquid chlorine), others are stuff I still have sitting around. You can use chemicals to raise pH but it will raise something else also like TA. So far, only aeration will raise pH without TA rising. That is not a clique thing, that is science. I am okay with not using the extra stuff I bought, as long as what I am using keeps my baby pool good. That was on me, and that is okay…I am learning and stuff happens along the way. In my opinion, it is easier & cheaper to tie a hose to my ladder to raise pH if I need to vs buy some item that will affect something I do not want it to. The last thing I want is for my TA to go up lol.

 

[phonedave]

Unfortunately as things are that we have discovered, aeration is the safest way to raise pH without raising something else with chemicals. As far as the “3 B’s”, I was new and bought them but did not need all of them. That was the point…that I only needed bleach out of the 3 B’s (the other two were baking soda & borax). The point is you may not need all of what you thought you would…I just need the bleach (aka liquid chlorine), others are stuff I still have sitting around. You can use chemicals to raise pH but it will raise something else also like TA. So far, only aeration will raise pH without TA rising. That is not a clique thing, that is science. I am okay with not using the extra stuff I bought, as long as what I am using keeps my baby pool good. That was on me, and that is okay…I am learning and stuff happens along the way. In my opinion, it is easier & cheaper to tie a hose to my ladder to raise pH if I need to vs buy some item that will affect something I do not want it to. The last thing I want is for my TA to go up lol.

Many people add borax to their pool just to add borates.

Borates can help buffer pH and prevent scaling, they make the water feel softer, and they give the water a certain appearance, some people refer to it as "jewel like". It is kind of hard to describe, it's not quite sparkly, buy maybe faceted is a word for it. Apparently there is no chemical / physics reason for it to do so, but I think I can see it (or maybe it is just a placebo effect). They also help prevent algae (not kill, prevent, there is a difference)

However, borax raises pH, which you need to counterbalance with acid, which messes with TA.

You can also use boric acid to add borates, which will not raise pH, but you need to get boric acid with no additives. It is sold as a pesticide, but you never know what else is in it (anti caking agents, colorants, or who knows what). In fact Terro ant bait is basically sugar syrup and borax. You can make it yourself.

Apparently "new" borax has less of an impact on pH (they process it in some new way) but I don't know about that

 

[jeffchap]

There is no reason to be concerned with adjusting TA. Just keep pH in range and forget about TA.

 

[raysaint]

Thanks for the science and clarifications on additives. I guess bottom line for me right now, based on tests, I will use some MA to bring down ph a bit (from 7.8 to 7.4) and that will lower my TA a bit. And that keeps ph in the ideal range.
Why does TA rise, what causes are there for that? Just so I'm aware of the external factors.
Other than FC and CYA, it seems like other things, like TA/PH rise on their own. The additives I'm using so far are to lower things usually.

 

[Mdragger88]

Thanks for the science and clarifications on additives. I guess bottom line for me right now, based on tests, I will use some MA to bring down ph a bit (from 7.8 to 7.4) and that will lower my TA a bit. And that keeps ph in the ideal range.
Why does TA rise, what causes are there for that? Just so I'm aware of the external factors.
Other than FC and CYA, it seems like other things, like TA/PH rise on their own. The additives I'm using so far are to lower things usually.

Adding higher ta fill water to top off the pool will contribute ta to increase which in turn causes ph to rise more quickly.
to combat this you can try to take advantage of rain water instead of high ta fill water when possible.
Aeration from fountains, jets that disturb the surface of the water, & splashing swimmers all will increase ph (without increasing ta).
As mentioned above- just keep ph in the 7’s with Muriatic acid & the ta will fall over time, as ta lowers the rate of ph rise will slow.
High TA doesn’t hurt anything- just leads to faster/more frequent ph rise. If the frequency of rise is bothersome you can work to lower ta more quickly as mentioned in this article

Lower Total Alkalinity

A lower Total Alkalinity level can help a pool owner stabalize their pH increase. We'll explain how to lower TA with a little help from muriatic acid.

www.troublefreepool.com

If ta is 60 or above & ph falls a little low (low 7’s) aeration will generally bring it up on its own- no need to add borax, baking soda, or washing soda & get on the ph/ta chem merry go round

 

[raysaint]

Vacuum success, almost. So this time I got all air out of the hose, put the vac plate in skimmer, heard a sucking sound, turned pump to high, and away we go. However, just before I finished the pool, return jet started making noise and shooting air/water blasts. And I seemed to lose suction.
I turned pump off, removed vac plate, cleaned equipment, etc.
So what happened? My vac head never came out of the water, so did the pump take in air somehow?

 

[Texas Splash]

so did the pump take in air somehow?

It sounds like it did, but how? Did the water level drop allowing you to see & hear air out of that the return jet, or was that happening below the surface?

 

[raysaint]

It sounds like it did, but how? Did the water level drop allowing you to see & hear air out of that the return jet, or was that happening below the surface?

Water level was bang on. The hose is over the top rail of the pool to go into the skimmer. At the far end of the pool, I pulled the hose to it's full length (25 ft hose, 30 ft pool) and I wonder if that slightly lifted the vac plate off the skimmer basket, just enough to allow air to seep in and eventually lose suction for the pump. Can't think of any other reason.

 

[raysaint]

A week ago I had my CYA at about 45, today it was at least 50. Can it rise on its own?

 

[Texas Splash]

A week ago I had my CYA at about 45, today it was at least 50. Can it rise on its own?

Not on its own. More than likely you are just experiencing a small testing variance. Keep in mind you can easily have about a 10 ppm variance in the test itself. But when we perceive our result as being something like 45, we always round-up anyways. So a CYA of 50 seems good.

 

[raysaint]

Not on its own. More than likely you are just experiencing a small testing variance. Keep in mind you can easily have about a 10 ppm variance in the test itself. But when we perceive our result as being something like 45, we always round-up anyways. So a CYA of 50 seems good.

Good to know. The test this morning, the black dot was pretty much gone and I looked at the numbers and it was over 50. So I added more to completely make the dot disappear. So it's on the high side.
But it will slowly come down over time?

 

[Texas Splash]

But it will slowly come down over time?

It will. The rate of drop varies by pool, some anywhere between 5-10 ppm each month or so. It will probably drop a little when you close as well.

 

[phonedave]

Water level was bang on. The hose is over the top rail of the pool to go into the skimmer. At the far end of the pool, I pulled the hose to it's full length (25 ft hose, 30 ft pool) and I wonder if that slightly lifted the vac plate off the skimmer basket, just enough to allow air to seep in and eventually lose suction for the pump. Can't think of any other reason.

I doubt that is the reason, for two reasons. The vac plate is sucked down pretty well to the skimmer basket. It's not easy to just work it free. Also, the top of the simmer basket/vac plate should be below the waterline anyway. So unless it created a whirlpool and sucked air down (which you would likely notice) it would not suck in air even if it was to lift up

Look at the parts that are above the waterline next time. The hose cuff that is connected to the plate and the part of the hose that is out of the water. See if you can her air being drawn in anywhere.

 

[raysaint]

I doubt that is the reason, for two reasons. The vac plate is sucked down pretty well to the skimmer basket. It's not easy to just work it free. Also, the top of the simmer basket/vac plate should be below the waterline anyway. So unless it created a whirlpool and sucked air down (which you would likely notice) it would not suck in air even if it was to lift up

Look at the parts that are above the waterline next time. The hose cuff that is connected to the plate and the part of the hose that is out of the water. See if you can her air being drawn in anywhere.

While I was vacuuming, once in a while I'd hear a slight gurgly sound in the hose as it floated on the surface, thought that was normal, but maybe not.
How would I test the hose for a hole?

 

[phonedave]

While I was vacuuming, once in a while I'd hear a slight gurgly sound in the hose as it floated on the surface, thought that was normal, but maybe not.
How would I test the hose for a hole?

I would walk along it and listen. you should be able to hear it

 

[raysaint]

Let's talk winterizing. I read your article and a couple old posts.
I'll break all my questions into a few separate posts so that none of my questions get missed. I know it's difficult to reply to long multi question posts. So thanks for your patience.
Finally found a company to close my pool. They had October 6 or 21, I chose 21 just to make sure water is consistently around 60 degrees. But leaving it until 21st means dealing with falling leaves here in Ontario.
I'd like to deal with the water myself; service companies include chemicals but possibly things I shouldn't add, i.e., non-chlorinated shock, clarifier, copper algaecide. I'd rather buy the proper chemicals and prepare the water myself. Then let them do the equipment and cover.
Is this approach simple enough for a first timer like me?
My next post will be chemical questions.

 

[phonedave]

Let's talk winterizing. I read your article and a couple old posts.
I'll break all my questions into a few separate posts so that none of my questions get missed. I know it's difficult to reply to long multi question posts. So thanks for your patience.
Finally found a company to close my pool. They had October 6 or 21, I chose 21 just to make sure water is consistently around 60 degrees. But leaving it until 21st means dealing with falling leaves here in Ontario.
I'd like to deal with the water myself; service companies include chemicals but possibly things I shouldn't add, i.e., non-chlorinated shock, clarifier, copper algaecide. I'd rather buy the proper chemicals and prepare the water myself. Then let them do the equipment and cover.
Is this approach simple enough for a first timer like me?
My next post will be chemical questions.

That is basically what I do

I get my pH right, then I run my FC up to SLAM levels (even a little higher), run my filter for an hour or so to circulate the water, and then close it up.

I never use algicide, clarifier, or anything else when I close. Some people do, but for my pool I do not find it necessary.

I drop my water to just below my skimmer, plug my skimmer and return, remove and store my filter, pull out my stairs, and cover the pool.