SWG ratings

[JamesW]

I'm not sure why they feel the need to exaggerate the production claims.

I would ask for any test results that substantiate the production claims.

Any claims of production should be backed up by independent tests done by a recognized lab or organization.

They had to get the rating from somewhere.

Did they just pull the numbers out of thin air?

 

[trivetman]

I'm not sure why they feel the need to exaggerate the production claims.

Cause it helps them sell!. I definitely bought based on that big 2.9 number. I did figure it was a bit inflated. I didn’t think it would be double (if thats indeed that case) the actual capacity.

Did they just pull the numbers out of thin air?

Probably

Related note: I stumbled across this document online about Cl gas to liquid chlorine equivalent. It gives a different equivalency than the 1 pound gas = 1 gallon 12% LC which I’ve seen in this forum and which I think poolmath uses. Going by these calculations, 1 pound CL gas = 0.86 gallons 12% LC. Its enough of a difference to notice, especially if I am about to pick a fight with Circupool about chlorine production

The difference comes from adjusting for the specific gravity of liquid chlorine (1.168 in the document). Without this adjustment, the 1 pound gas = 1 gallon 12% is exact.

 

[JamesW]

The standard rating is in pounds of chlorine gas per day unless otherwise specified.

In any case, someone needs to ask them where they got the production numbers.

 

[JamesW]

Cause it helps them sell!.

You don’t really think that a company would exaggerate their performance just to make sales, do you?

That’s crazy talk.

That’s against the rules and companies always follow the rules, everyone knows that....sheesh.

In fact, this is the oath that all business people take before they can get a business license.

On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Businessperson Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. A Businessperson is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

 

[SoDel]

You don’t really think that a company would exaggerate their performance just to make sales, do you?

That’s crazy talk.

That’s against the rules and companies always follow the rules, everyone knows that....sheesh.

In fact, this is the oath that all business people take before they can get a business license.

All makes sense except clean. If you’re running your own business and have time to keep clean, you are missing something else you should be doing Clean is for after the job is done.

 

[markayash]

You don’t really think that a company would exaggerate their performance just to make sales, do you?

That’s crazy talk.

That’s against the rules and companies always follow the rules, everyone knows that....sheesh.

In fact, this is the oath that all business people take before they can get a business license.

They probably test with all ranges or salt And water temp etc until they get the max output.
I like drag racing but laughed at people wondering why their bike wouldn’t run 10 flat like the one in the magazine

 

[Newdude]

3 letters come to mind. M. P. G.

I drive gently more often than not and can't hit 75% of the window sticker #s.

 

[markayash]

3 letters come to mind. M. P. G.

I drive gently more often than not and can't hit 75% of the window sticker #s.

I read an article about the guy who test bikes. Not only skinny but they did a test and this guy would run .25 to .5 a second faster then the guys on the magazine staff.

You could probably ask circupool what’s the ideal level of salt?

 

[JamesW]

The Hayward T-Cell uses 13 plates (blades).

The 2 white wires go to the center plate and one black wire goes to each outer plate.

This makes the box and cell work like a battery charger where the water between the plates is the batteries.

Assuming 24 volts DC and 6 amps, it’s like there are 2 sets of (6) 4volt batteries in series being charged with the sets in parallel.

The total amps are 6 amps x 6 cells or 3 amps x 12 cells (36 amps either way).

Amps are the measure of the flow of electrons.

The amperage is directly proportional to the chlorine production.

On one side of a plate, a chloride ion loses an electron to become a chlorine radical and then combines with another chlorine radical to create chlorine gas.

So, one electron, one chlorine radical produced.

One amp is defined as 6.28 x 10^18 electrons per second

36 amps x 60 x 60 x24 = 3,110,400

3,110,400 x 6.28 x 10^18 = 1.95 x 10^25 electrons per day

1 mole of atoms = 6.022 × 10^23 atoms

1.95 x 10^25 electrons can produce 32.4 moles of chlorine atoms.

Chlorine is 35 grams per mole.

That’s 1,134 grams per day = 2.5 lbs per day maximum theoretical production at 6 amps.

The units shut down at 8 amps, so 7.9 amps is the maximum possible production.

At 7.9 amps, the maximum theoretical production is 3.29 lbs per day.

So, maybe that is where they are getting the number.

In any case, I would like to see a report from a qualified lab that shows the actual measured production of chlorine gas.

 

[JamesW]

Here are the dimensions of the Hayward plates and the "rated" production per day.

T-15 has 13 Titanium Plates, 150 x 63mm. Produces 1.47 lbs/day.

T-9 has 13 Titanium Plates, 101 x 63mm. Produces 0.98 lbs/day.

T-5 has 7 Titanium plate, 150 x 63mm. Produces 0.735 lbs/day.

T-3 has 7 Titanium Plates, 101 x 63mm. Produces 0.53 lbs/day.

The T-15 has amps in the 6 to 7.8 range and a rated output of 1.47 lbs. per day.

So, the question is, why is the Hayward T-15 rated so much lower that the Circupool?

Hayward claims to have independent lab tests to verify production.

Is Hayward just being conservative?

Is Circupool using "theoretical" production vs. actual proven production?

Does the Circupool use more plates than the Hayward?

Maybe some other explanation?

In any case, Circupool should be ready, willing and able to show where they got the figures they are posting.




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[trivetman]

Ill check the voltage and amperage sometime tomorrow and will report back. I remember it being in the middle of the wide range of normal function. That probably means amps were 5-6 and not 7+ but best not to speculate.

Looking at the plate count will have to wait until the cell is off, probably Wednesday.

 

[SoDel]

Is Hayward just being conservative?

As one more anecdotal data point, my pool is in basically full sun all day, 2+ year old Hayward T-cell-9, NaCl is 3,400, CYA is 40, and the calculated expected Cl produced per day is 2.17 ppm. I test FC every morning and it has been rock steady at 7.5 ppm (it might bump up by 0.5 ppm if the previois day was cloudy, fall by 0.5 if the spa was in use for hours, but essentially right at 7.5 almost every single day). I’d suspect either I have some sort of special cell or Hayward”s numbers are on the conservative side (if I had to guess, conservatively low by a significant percentage).

 

[trivetman]

What are the volts and amps?

Voltage: 22.6
Amps: fluctuating btw 5.4-5.6

 

[JamesW]

Voltage: 22.6
Amps: fluctuating btw 5.4-5.6

If I am doing the calculations correctly, the maximum production at 5.6 amps is about 2.3 lb/day.

Are you checking the overnight gain to confirm?

Have you asked the manufacturer for their explanation of where they got their production numbers?

 

[poolurker5]

Good question…and that’s something I was already going to ask Circupool. Heres the cell version display. I think it says t-15. I would have thought it would say something 55?

Anybody know what cell version it should say? Isn’t t-15 a Hayward cell model?

I have the Universal 40, and my cell reading also shows as t-15. The sticker on the cell says its rated for 40,000 gallons. When generating, the volts are at 25v, and amps about 5.2.

 

[markayash]

I can imagine the guy’s expression at circupool when You guys along with @Texas Splash call and say they want to talk about why his swg isn’t performing

After 5 minutes “ ok i send you a new unit “

 

[trivetman]

Detailed diagnostics from customers are clearly not what they’re used to. The rep who issued the RMA asked what I did for a living (actuary) and told me that the diagnostics I was giving him is definitely not the conversation he was used to having. I think he was expecting me to say I was a hydraulics sanitation engineer or something.

I am committed to sending it in even knowing the very likely outcome that the unit isn’t broken but the production specs are just false and we’ll just see how they react. The words ‘call attorney about a class action lawsuit’ may or may not come out of my mouth.

 

[trivetman]

If I am doing the calculations correctly, the maximum production at 5.6 amps is about 2.3 lb/day.

Are you checking the overnight gain to confirm?

Have you asked the manufacturer for their explanation of where they got their production numbers?

Gains from a 9.5 hr run have been 1.5-2.5 ppm. Specs state the gain should be ~5.5 ppm. OCLT has always passed at 0-0.5 ppm loss

 

[markayash]

Detailed diagnostics from customers are clearly not what they’re used to. The rep who issued the RMA asked what I did for a living (actuary) and told me that the diagnostics I was giving him is definitely not the conversation he was used to having. I think he was expecting me to say I was a hydraulics sanitation engineer or something.

I am committed to sending it in even knowing the very likely outcome that the unit isn’t broken but the production specs are just false and we’ll just see how they react. The words ‘call attorney about a class action lawsuit’ may or may not come out of my mouth.

I try that with comcast “ I am a senior network engineer and have been doing this for over 20 years” “ sir can you reboot your computer”

 

[trivetman]

I try that with comcast “ I am a senior network engineer and have been doing this for over 20 years” “ sir can you reboot your computer”

Is that the truth or just what you tell them?