Case study to determine root cause of Pentair mastertemp 400 not igniting

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JoyfulNoise said:
Those are only meant for polyethylene tubing.
Click to expand...
Ok. Then I think I have my answer b/c I’m not going to mess with pvc joints. Digging time!
Any ideas where to look for 2” risers in stock? HD would not give me an eta. Will take me a while to get this trench dug anyway.
I assume that I can buy fittings to reduce from 2” to 0.75” at heater (after riser).
 
Asherk74 said:
Ok. Then I think I have my answer b/c I’m not going to mess with pvc joints. Digging time!
Any ideas where to look for 2” risers in stock? HD would not give me an eta. Will take me a while to get this trench dug anyway.
I assume that I can buy fittings to reduce from 2” to 0.75” at heater (after riser).
Click to expand...

Normally for "specialty" type plumbing items I have two major plumbing suppliers in my area (Noughtons and Furgeson's) that I will contact especially if it requires a special order. Being in wild cowboy country, they look the other way that I'm not a licensed plumber ... and they probably charge me more for stuff too :LOL: I'm not a qualified gas plumber but I've played with enough hazardous gases in my life (and produce some hazardous gas myself ...) that I'm comfortable mucking around with gas lines ... of course, my homeowner's insurance might have a few questions for me when I submit that claim of total property loss due to raging, gas-fed fire ....

You should do some homework and consult local code. You may not be allowed to do much more than dig the trenches and your city might require a permit to be signed and approved to do gas changes in and around your home. You could wind up doing all that work and then the gas company would refuse to do the hookup because you didn't go through a licensed plumber or have a signed off permit.

I say take a deep breath and go do some reading up on the subject first before you go dropping lots of cash on supplies that you may not need ...
 
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Asherk74 said:
Ok. Then I think I have my answer b/c I’m not going to mess with pvc joints. Digging time!
Any ideas where to look for 2” risers in stock? HD would not give me an eta. Will take me a while to get this trench dug anyway.
I assume that I can buy fittings to reduce from 2” to 0.75” at heater (after riser).
Click to expand...
Like this?
hdpesupply.com

2" MPT x 2" IPS SDR11 PE 36" x 36" Gas Anodeless Meter Riser YELLOW MDPE

Hdpe Supply is your number one source for Hdpe Fittings, Hdpe Pipe, and Fusion Equipment. We sell polyethylene pipe, butt fittings, socket fittings, electrofusion fittings, and fusion equipment.
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Once you have the riser giving you back a steel pipe, you are back to standard iron pipe size fittings--typical steel gas line stuff.
 
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Yea. I am doing my due diligence, thankfully I won’t need a new tap from the gas line, would just drop from 2” to 1.5” to meet the current union so gas company wouldnt ‘own it’. That’s from what they’ve said.
Regarding supplies, I guess I’ll call around to some local places….
I’m a mechanical engineer for my real job so I do have some sense for safety 🫣
 
jedigrover said:
Last year, we got a reminder in my city of what gas can do:
www.nbcdfw.com

Plano Home Explosion May Have Been Attempted Suicide: KRLD

Investigators looking into what caused a home in Plano to explode last week say it may be the result of a failed suicide attempt, KRLD radio reports.
www.nbcdfw.com www.nbcdfw.com
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Oh me oh my. At any point if I don’t feel safe I’d stop. I’d obviously do leak checks at fittings under air pressure and all that and have a gas plumber inspect before filling in trench…
 
Started shopping.
Here's my list thus far
2" Pipe of 100 feet (2x): HOME-FLEX 2 in. IPS x 100 ft. DR 11 Underground Yellow Polyethylene Gas Pipe 19-2011100
2" Coupler (2x): HOME-FLEX 2 in. IPS x 100 ft. DR 11 Underground Yellow Polyethylene Gas Pipe 19-2011100
2" elbows (2x): HOME-FLEX 2 in. IPS DR 11 Underground Yellow Poly Gas Pipe 90-Degree Elbow 18-406-020
2" Risers (2x): HOME-FLEX 2 in. IPS Poly DR 11 to 2 in. MIP Underground Meter Riser Bent 18-440-020
Tracer wire, ~ 200 feet
Now is where it gets a bit trickier for me going to metal. questions below:
Which type of metal am I aiming for (Stainless Steel or galvanized steel or cheaper iron/steels), McMaster Carr and Ferguson seem to have reducing options (elbow or couple), not sure where to get these parts for cheaper..
will have to reduce at meter from 2" to 1.5", should this be an inline reducer (if so, vertical from riser, or horizontal after an elbow). see image below, a shut off valve and union exist at 1.5" out of meter.
Same question at heater side, will reduce from 2" to >1" then to 3/4" into heater as shown below
I also need to add a sediment trap.
And at last, best thread sealant options for metal parts.
Im sure Im missing stuff...
To heater
8.jpg

To Meter:
3.jpg
 
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Best to consult a plumber, but my guess is you'd want to stay with galvanized at the meter. Around here, it seems that 1" and below is black steel pipe, and above 1" it is galvanized or the green epoxy-coated stuff (that is meant for burial). Reducers, I believe you'll want bell reducers like is shown in the heater plumbing diagram.
This is where a plumber with the right experience and tools can make all the difference. They can usually cut and thread the pipes to custom lengths right on site.

When I plumbed the gas at my heater, I had to make a couple of trips to Lowe's / HD to get the pipe cut and threaded to the measurements I took. At the heater, do it just like the diagram shows.

For thread sealant, there are options. Some people like the gas-rated teflon tape. Some like Rectorseal #5, some do both (tape and rectorseal on top of the tape).
 
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Quick thoughts - use galvanized steel above ground and then paint it with Rustoleum or similar. No need for expensive stainless.

Thread sealing - you should gas pipe sealing tape. It’s yellow. It’s a thicker version of Teflon tape that one uses for water.

Are you do new risers at both ends?
 
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Ya, I plan on laying out and soft installing the metal first so then I can dig my trench for alignment match up from risers (at both ends).
At the heater it just says over 1”; I’m thinking I’ll drop down to 1.25” there since I’m coming from 2”, or just leave it at 2”? And then reducer into 0.75 union.
Is a sediment trap simply a nipple 3” with a cap on its end? Any screen or so
I’ll probably do both tape and seal to be safe.
 
2” out of ground then immediately into a bell reducer to 1.25”. 1.25” pipe and hardware to heater. Then reduce to 3/4” after the last coupling into the heater gas valve.

Yes, drip leg is just a 3” nipple with a cap. Designed to catch debris and condensation.
 
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Asherk74 said:
Ya, I plan on laying out and soft installing the metal first so then I can dig my trench for alignment match up from risers (at both ends).
At the heater it just says over 1”; I’m thinking I’ll drop down to 1.25” there since I’m coming from 2”, or just leave it at 2”? And then reducer into 0.75 union.
Is a sediment trap simply a nipple 3” with a cap on its end? Any screen or so
I’ll probably do both tape and seal to be safe.
Click to expand...
It was a plumber that showed me the belt-and-braces approach with both tape & rectorseal. Be careful with the rectorseal--if you get it on anything like stonework near the pool, it takes a blasting cap to get loose after it's cured. Ask me how I know...

Yes, a sediment trap is just a 3" or longer nipple with a cap on its end. Some also might call it a drip-leg, because it can catch water condensate as well as sediment.
Usually the heater will have a screen on the inlet. That is mostly to keep big stuff out.

If it were me, I would keep it at 2" or a minimum of 1.5" from the riser to the bell reducer, based on the recommended pipe sizes chart. My riser is 1", but I'm also at 2psi and have a regulator there. I drop to 3/4" with a reducing tee where I did the drip leg (sediment trap).
 
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Update:
Finished my first stretch! (splitting into 3 segments at elbow couplers)
First stretch: from heater -> riser ->~50 feet of run with minor curves -> elbow coupler, extended about 1 foot and capped and buried with smooth sand, to be shop vacuumed when I'm ready to lay stretch 2.
I ran into an issue: to get the elbow closer to the heater tight enough, it took the shutoff ball valve through some rotation and at reasonable torques it will not move back into horizontal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this should not alter its performance, just looks a bit funky... Alternative would be to redo it from the union. Id prefer not.
11.jpg10.jpg
 
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Hey!
thanks for the follow up,
Been busy with life (kids, work, etc..),
Realistically, it will be months away for all pipe to be laid, but I am happy with my current progress!
 
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Made some decent progress the past few months, almost there!
Looking to buy a pressure test gauge now and electric pump/compressor...
Can you guys recommend a test procedure (i.e. 15 psi with 2 psi drop over 24 hours etc..) @JamesW @JoyfulNoise
 
Asherk74 said:
Made some decent progress the past few months, almost there!
Looking to buy a pressure test gauge now and electric pump/compressor...
Can you guys recommend a test procedure (i.e. 15 psi with 2 psi drop over 24 hours etc..) @JamesW @JoyfulNoise
Click to expand...

Need to see the setup but at one end of the pipe you want to have a manifold with a pressure gauge that can read in 1/2 psi increments typically up to 30psi. You can find many gauges like that for fairly cheap. You also want to have a 1/4 turn shut off valve there so you can fine tune the pressure. Then at the other end you'll need some kind of adapter on a manifold to fill the line with compressed air. If you can get a hold of a pancake compressor then you can probably rig up some quick disconnect type fittings for filling. You can also simply cap one side of the line and put everything on the manifold with the pressure gauge. Whatever works best for you.

If the NG line is oprating at low pressure (0.5 psi or less), then it needs to hold 5psi air pressure for a minimum of 30mins with no drop. If the NG line is operating between 0.5 - 5.0 psi (high pressure gas line), then it needs to hold 1.5 times its operating pressure for 30mins with no drop. You should check local regulations in CA to see if there any stricter requirements.

While under pressure you can take a mixture of dish soap and water (mix it gently and don't make it bubbly) and flood every glued joint and manifold joint with it. If you see bubbles form around any of the glue joints, you have a leak. There's a commercial product called "Snoop" by Swagelok that is also a bubbling solution but it's really not worth it. Dish soap and water works fine.
 
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