First time at TFP, First Pool, First Problem

[Newdude]

CYA = 35

HUGE save here !!!! Huger than huge. A CYA of 115 per the pool store requires a 75%-ish drain to get back in range. Your reliable test kit says you are GOLDEN as is. Again. HUUUUUUUUUGE.

Also Welcome Triangle !! We got you now. Take a breath, and a tasty beverage and the rest is smooth sailing.

 

[TriangleMan]

HUUUUUUUUUGE.

Thanks for the warm welcome! This site, and you contributors, are an invaluable resource, so thank you for that! I absolutely love your passion for pools and your dedication to helping all of us along.
I agree, the CYA reading is a very welcome relief. I have a lot of trichlor tablets to slowly burn off now since I had eagerly prepared for the entire summer, but I'll make sure to do so only very slowly as I monitor how much it loses each month.

I remember when I first got the 115 reading from the pool store, she had just gotten done telling the guy in front of me that his CYA was way too high and he had to drain the pool as well. I felt terrible for him as I awaited my own test results, and then my heart sunk when she told me the same. Who knows how many people that day (and beyond) she was giving bad advice to.

Now on to the fun part! Swimming!!! (and measuring... always measuring!)

 

[Newdude]

We utterly swear to everyone (and for GOOD reason) that the kit will pay for itself many times over during its lifespan. Yours paid for itself 3X over the first day.

And LOOK at you, all knowing more than the pool store on *day 1*. Bravo. We’ll show you the rest EZPZ.

 

[Oly]

Those trichlor tabs are are in short supply now, wrap them individually and sell them for big $ on your favorite pop media site.

 

[LoneWolfArcher]

Those trichlor tabs are are in short supply now, wrap them individually and sell them for big $ on your favorite pop media site.

I have $200 of these, but I refuse to take advantage of the ignorance of others!

 

[BassPlayingDude]

That drought you have there must be Illinois-ing...

 

[Newdude]

Also, for future consideration……. If I, anyone above, or anyone here who is free that day tells you that you need to drain, they do *not* get a few hundred in sales to rebalance you new water.

The pool store gouges you while pumping your CYA up, just to, ‘Oh sorry, you have to drain’. And ‘that’ll be $350 for the new chemicals…… you don’t want your new water having problems, right ?’

We consider it an honor to keep your monies in your wallet.

 

[Flying Tivo]

Look into a stenner pump for acid additions, this will make your life easier. Then again might as well buy 2 one for chlorine and one for acid.

 

[BassPlayingDude]

@triangleman3 First one to get the joke! Congrats, you win a kupi doll!

 

[TriangleMan]

Very pleased to report that I've completed my first SLAM (and intend for it to be the last for a very long time!)

FC = 13.5 (down from 14.5 last night)
CC = 0
pH = 7.6
TA = 200
CH = 325
CYA = 40

Pics or it didn't happen! (Too bad it's a cloudy day!)

Now, as for TA... and recalling that my fill water is TA=425 and CH=375, I was reviewing my next steps and re-reading the pool chemicals articles.
I have been told in the past by the proven-to-be-untrustworthy pool-store ne'er-do-wells that high TA will damage the pool equipment.
From the articles on this site, I gather that I really don't need to worry about TA with a vinyl liner pool too much, as long as it isn't cloudy, which it doesn't appear to be. (Maybe a lower TA will be even more clear?)

I can either (1) throw in the occasional acid to maintain the pH between 7.6 and 7.8, or (2) aggressively reduce TA with acid and chase the pH back up with aeration.
It sounds like the latter isn't really necessary, according to the "How to Lower Total Alkalinity" article, since I'm not too worried about calcium scaling in a vinyl liner pool, and what's the point of working to raise pH so that I can throw in acid if the only reason I'm throwing in acid is because the pH has gotten high... Do I have that right? Is there really not a lot of concern about TA in my case? Approach (1) seems to be what TFP is trying to teach me. Thank you team!

 

[mknauss]

Only reason a high TA would cause cloudiness is if you try to add a bunch of calcium to the water at once. And your vinyl liner pool does not need any calcium added.

If your pH rise is not an issue with you, just lower the pH to 7.4 or 7.6 when it gets to 8.

 

[LoneWolfArcher]

Keep your pH in range and the TA will come down over time.

 

[atccf]

Hello World!
I'm familiar with pools from being around them all my life, but am the proud new owner of my own first pool, and after maintaining it pretty well for a month and a half, I've run into my first real problem! I've been reading articles on here and perusing the forums, so I think I'm ready to raise the call for help and provide as much info as I can.

I have a 25,000 gallon vinyl liner pool with a heater, automatic chlorinator using trichlor tabs, and Nature 2 mineral cartridge.
Here's how it started and how it's going:

My own test kit, as recommended by TFP, is on order, so what follows is based on pool store analysis:

5/26/2021:
Water looks crystal clear and is highly enjoyable:
Store #1:
FC: 1.13
TC: 1.13
pH: 7.6
TA: 116
CH: 251
CYA: 115
(Also, water temp 90, Iron 0, Copper 0, Phosphates 3993, and TDS 1250)

6/1/2021:
Water is terribly cloudy (can barely even see the bottom of the shallow end 3 feet down)
Over the last couple days I've added about 3 lbs of calcium-hypochlorite and 10 gallons of (10%) sodium hypochlorite to no effect.
Backwashed out about 1000 gallons (2") to start diluting CYA, re-adding from (known high TA) well water, and also getting maybe 0.5" rain
I even got desperate and added 16oz of "clarifier".
The following are the measurements after doing all of the above:
Store #1: Store #2:
FC: 0.23 FC: 0.3
TC: 1.32 TC: 1.9
pH: 7.4 pH: 7.4
TA: 178 TA: 153
CH: 239 CH: 278
CYA: 44 CYA: 46
(Iron 0, copper 0.1, phosphates 3428, TDS 1400)

I'm terribly confused! I figure algae is taking hold because FC is low for the CYA level on 5/26 from what I've read on this site, but from everything I've ever heard CYA doesn't go away, so how is it suddenly 44-46 on 6/1?? There's no way I lost and diluted over 50% of the water. How did that happen? Did it combine with the chlorine I've added and will just come back once FC = TC again? The dramatic drop in CYA also matches what the quick-test strips have been telling me, for what that's worth. I'd really like to understand this mystery so that I can better understand how CYA works.

More importantly, (and possibly related) how do I clear up the cloudiness!
Store #1 says the cloudiness is caused by high alkalinity and phosphates, add 42 lbs of sodium bisulfate (dry acid), 3.25 lbs of 73% calcium-hypochlorite, and 4 gallons of phosphate remover.
Store #2 says the cloudiness is caused by high combined chlorine: add 7 lbs of 73% Calcium Hypochlorite but I'm afraid of what that will do to the calcium level.

My gut feeling: Store #2 is on the right path, but I plan to use liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) instead.

I suspect, based on what I've read about SLAM on here, that it's going to take more than just 1 treatment to fix. What should I do and how much chlorine do I need to stock up on??
Thank you very much for your advice!

Jim

Jim, I also have a Nature 2/SWG combo unit and with the advice of the experts here I didn't install the mineral cartridge because it puts copper in the water which can create a host of other problems. IMHO, I would stop using the mineral cartridge asap. Can one of the experts weigh in on that?

 

[Newdude]

IMHO, I would stop using the mineral cartridge asap. Can one of the experts weigh in on that?

* not an expert. Don’t need to be. Copper is very very bad long term. To add it on purpose when it serves no function is beyond a no brainer. Just. Don’t.

 

[LoneWolfArcher]

* not an expert. Don’t need to be. Copper is very very bad long term. To add it on purpose when it serves no function is beyond a no brainer. Just. Don’t.

The reason "some" (not on TFP) advocate copper is because it is a natural algae killer. However, as newdude says, copper creates more problems than it solves. I found that out the hard way before finding TFP!

 

[Newdude]

The reason "some" (not on TFP) advocate copper is because it is a natural algae killer

Exactly. And it does in fact inhibit algae. So the manufacturer’s claim that with Algea already under control then you need less or no chlorine to handle all the viruses, pathogens. Bacteria, etc. This is a BOLD FACED lie. The only saving grace about their lies and half truths are that they fail spectacularly so quickly that most people learn just as quickly. (Albeit the ‘hard way’).

Copper is also the common ingredient in many algecide due to its algae inhibition. But it’s frequently mis-used after the fact as an algae killer by the pool stores that either don’t know better, or know better and just want to fleece the customer more. It does absolutely zero to kill algae after the fact. Again, just like the ‘mineral systems’ it creates much worse problems than it solves so steer clear of copper algecide as well. Many folks do use it for winterizing, where it *does* serve a purpose with no chlorine treatments during the off season, but stick with the Polyquat 60’s and pretty much any ‘XXXX 60’ that is also copper free.

 

[LoneWolfArcher]

Exactly. And it does in fact inhibit algae. So the manufacturer’s claim that with Algea already under control then you need less or no chlorine to handle all the viruses, pathogens. Bacteria, etc. This is a BOLD FACED lie. The only saving grace about their lies and half truths are that they fail spectacularly so quickly that most people learn just as quickly. (Albeit the ‘hard way’).

Copper is also the common ingredient in many algecide due to its algae inhibition. But it’s frequently mis-used after the fact as an algae killer by the pool stores that either don’t know better, or know better and just want to fleece the customer more. It does absolutely zero to kill algae after the fact. Again, just like the ‘mineral systems’ it creates much worse problems than it solves so steer clear of copper algecide as well. Many folks do use it for winterizing, where it *does* serve a purpose with no chlorine treatments during the off season, but stick with the Polyquat 60’s and pretty much any ‘XXXX 60’ that is also copper free.

High copper and high CYA turned my pool purple! LOL

 

[TriangleMan]

Wow, thanks for the heads up! I'll look into removing the Nature 2 mineral cartridge (I've seen other posts on here about how to do it without damaging the cap), or just cutting it out of the line entirely (it's just patching a PVC pipe after all).

It's amazing the amount of trouble I was looking to get into if I followed the pool builder's advice and used all of their recommended chemicals. They've partnered with BioGuard which pushes all kinds of "Blue" products, a buzzword which I read elsewhere on here is a key hint that copper is included. I checked the BioGuard Silkguard tablets and sure enough they include just under 1% copper sulfate pentahydrate (not to mention the CYA). They would have had me regularly using trichlor tablets with copper, weekly shock treatments with multiple bags of dichlor, 3 oz/wk of 13% copper-sulfate algaecide, and 11 oz/wk of their phosphate-removing clarifier potion.

I'm more thankful than ever that I found you guys early on.
Rather than being constantly disheartened by an out-of-control pool, my biggest problem now is what to do with hundreds of dollars of worse-than-worthless chemicals that are sitting in the storage shed...

 

[LoneWolfArcher]

Wow, thanks for the heads up! I'll look into removing the Nature 2 mineral cartridge (I've seen other posts on here about how to do it without damaging the cap), or just cutting it out of the line entirely (it's just patching a PVC pipe after all).

It's amazing the amount of trouble I was looking to get into if I followed the pool builder's advice and used all of their recommended chemicals. They've partnered with BioGuard which pushes all kinds of "Blue" products, a buzzword which I read elsewhere on here is a key hint that copper is included. I checked the BioGuard Silkguard tablets and sure enough they include just under 1% copper sulfate pentahydrate (not to mention the CYA). They would have had me regularly using trichlor tablets with copper, weekly shock treatments with multiple bags of dichlor, 3 oz/wk of 13% copper-sulfate algaecide, and 11 oz/wk of their phosphate-removing clarifier potion.

I'm more thankful than ever that I found you guys early on.
Rather than being constantly disheartened by an out-of-control pool, my biggest problem now is what to do with hundreds of dollars of worse-than-worthless chemicals that are sitting in the storage shed...

This place took me from hating my pool to loving it!

 

[mknauss]

Rather than being constantly disheartened by an out-of-control pool, my biggest problem now is what to do with hundreds of dollars of worse-than-worthless chemicals that are sitting in the storage shed...

Return it, sell it (morally that is difficult), or take to the local household hazardous waste site.