Can be exhausting trying to teach the TFP methodology

[Mdragger88]

If your friend has a swg & has an ongoing algae problem then he has to fix the original cause as well as slam the pool. That involves some work + investigation when the hard work is done. Many people are content with the results from the slam & do not care to pursue the reason they needed one in the 1st place. When algae comes back they say the TFP method doesn’t work when in reality the SLAM Process is only 1 part of TFPC the premise is really attention & prevention.
It could be several things, bad (dying cell), scale, lots of splashout, lots of rain, or a leak that allows cya & salt to get too low (an autofill can mask a leak) (an overflow drain can conceal dilution from heavy rains). Until your friend really wants pool freedom for himself- you will be his “easy button” if u allow it & yes, it will absolutely exhaust u.
I am in the same boat as Kato- some people are inconvincible & some must get to rock bottom before they see the light.
I just enjoy my sparkly pool & carry on.

 

[Bvacchiano]

What’s even more frustrating is when they say “the pool builder told me to do this”. People assume that since they built the pool they must be water quality experts. Lol. Buy this, buy that. I’ve been telling my buddy for almost a year now since he’s gotten algae that it’s due to the fact his CYA is 200. I’ve tested it myself. I told him for past year it’s going to be a pond soon if u don’t do a water exchange, get the CYA down and quit using these tri Chlor pucks like they are candy. Won’t listen and pool is a pond now. Pool builder told him to add a bottle of algecide and Phospate Free and buy new cartridge filters (they are 3 years old!!). So now he’s out $400 and pool still cloudy. Didn’t kill algae and back to square one. You can’t teach everyone. They will do what these pool builders and pool store “experts” tell them to do.

 

[Husky25]

What’s even more frustrating is when they say “the pool builder told me to do this”. People assume that since they built the pool they must be water quality experts. Lol. Buy this, buy that. I’ve been telling my buddy for almost a year now since he’s gotten algae that it’s due to the fact his CYA is 200. I’ve tested it myself. I told him for past year it’s going to be a pond soon if u don’t do a water exchange, get the CYA down and quit using these tri Chlor pucks like they are candy. Won’t listen and pool is a pond now. Pool builder told him to add a bottle of algecide and Phospate Free and buy new cartridge filters (they are 3 years old!!). So now he’s out $400 and pool still cloudy. Didn’t kill algae and back to square one. You can’t teach everyone. They will do what these pool builders and pool store “experts” tell them to do.

The pool store "experts" who are 17 years old?

 

[jimim]

i tried once and now i literally don't tell anyone anything. . . unless here. . .. cause if you are here you want to learn, but in general people never take someones advice. not just pools but soooooooo many times i have had neighbors ask me how i did this or that and they still did their own thing. and that's fine. so now i offer up nothing. someone asks me something i say i don't remember how i did it or i say i do it different each time. i just don't care anymore. i'm sorry i know that sounds mean, but i really don't.

 

[mguzzy]

i tried once and now i literally don't tell anyone anything. . . unless here. . ..

Ya, know, I kinda feel your pain. Unless someone is really interested in tinkering with their pool and understanding the chemistry.. they just don't want to know. In my world they don't want to know how a PC/Network/email really works.. they just want to use it. Same with a pool they just want to swim. But for a few I have met that have that mindset, they are all ears. So don't fall down the path of becoming too jaded.. we can provide all the support you need here.

 

[Husky25]

i tried once and now i literally don't tell anyone anything. . . unless here. . .. cause if you are here you want to learn, but in general people never take someones advice. not just pools but soooooooo many times i have had neighbors ask me how i did this or that and they still did their own thing. and that's fine. so now i offer up nothing. someone asks me something i say i don't remember how i did it or i say i do it different each time. i just don't care anymore. i'm sorry i know that sounds mean, but i really don't.

If someone mentions something about my pool, I will sometimes counter if they really want to talk about it or if they are just making chitchat. Those who have a pool are way more interested than those who just want to swim and have cocktail. I found a similar characteristic to those who have a smoker vs. don't. Those who don't literally have no desire in knowing how the sausage is made.

 

[jimim]

Ya, know, I kinda feel your pain. Unless someone is really interested in tinkering with their pool and understanding the chemistry.. they just don't want to know. In my world they don't want to know how a PC/Network/email really works.. they just want to use it. Same with a pool they just want to swim. But for a few I have met that have that mindset, they are all ears. So don't fall down the path of becoming too jaded.. we can provide all the support you need here.

Ohhhh that ship has sailed. In the past year I have become 90 shades jaded on everything. It just isn’t worth it anymore. Here again different story but in my everyday life, people might want to know but once they see there is work involved with not just pools but anything they are out. Everyone in my life want things easy and quick without thought.

 

[mguzzy]

Ohhhh that ship has sailed. In the past year I have become 90 shades jaded on everything.

So where have you been at the Curmudgeon's meetings? .. But then again, nobody there really cares, except for who is on their lawn.

 

[kellyfair]

It‘s like all requests for advice, really. I’m happy to give you advice once, maybe twice. But if you keep asking, all the while ignoring what I’ve already shared, you are wasting my time.

 

[Shirker]

But if you keep asking, all the while ignoring what I’ve already shared, you are wasting my time.

In other words, don't be an askhole

 

[BassPlayingDude]

The root of the problem in my opinion is "magical thinking". You simply cannot convince someone who is in the "magical thinking" paradigm to switch over to a Descartian way of knowing.. the cognitive dissonance is just too great for them to bear. This does not just apply to pool care. These are the same people who get ripped off by contractors, auto mechanics, lawyers, shysters, brokers, faith healers, etc ...

Fixing the real root problem for these folks, unfortunately requires them tearing down their Jenga Stack and rebuilding their entire epistemology from the ground up, and that is a LOT of work, and is very scary. I think this is especially difficult for those who are above average in intelligence because deep down, they understand at some level that questioning any of their deep-seated beliefs about the world may lead to at least some degree of nihilism, and this is what they fear the most. Just my two cents armchair psychological analysis, please take it with a grain of Cal-Hypo. I have been pursuing an evidence-based epistemology since I was 10 years old, and I still sometimes find myself falling into the same kinds of traps, mostly because I wish so badly that certain things were so that simply are not. It takes a tremendous amount of emotional fortitude to say "I guess I was wrong about X... now let's learn the real truth, even if it might be unpleasant"



PS: for more insight into this phenomenon, I highly recommend Sagan's book, The Demon-Haunted World .. he elucidates these concepts far more eruditely than I ever could.

 

[mguzzy]

The root of the problem in my opinion is "magical thinking".

Whoa.. that's a whole heck of a lot of philosophical psycho babble for pool care forum.. I mean whose to say the pool is really there, It could be an extension of an altered reality. Or vagaries of perception of a feeble human mind. I know, lets have a pool party and invite Locke, Kant and Berkeley so we can jam out on phosphate empiricism and I'll get the Dancing Wu Li Masters for the musical entertainment. I hear Socrates does a killer home brew and we can all get Platonic. Maybe Castaneda will make a cameo.. or maybe not.

 

[BassPlayingDude]

Whoa.. that's a whole heck of a lot of philosophical psycho babble for pool care forum.. I mean whose to say the pool is really there, It could be an extension of an altered reality. Or vagaries of perception of a feeble human mind. I know, lets have a pool party and invite Locke, Kant and Berkeley so we can jam out on phosphate empiricism and I'll get the Dancing Wu Li Masters for the musical entertainment. I hear Socrates does a killer home brew and we can all get Platonic. Maybe Castaneda will make a cameo.. or maybe not.

Maybe so, @mguzzy, but that doesn't mean it isn't true, and after all, this is the Coffee Bar.

 

[mguzzy]

Maybe so, @mguzzy, but that doesn't mean it isn't true, and after all, this is the Coffee Bar.

I'll Drink to that!

 

[BassPlayingDude]

@mguzzy I think the question we must ask ourselves is "Do we really wish to understand why people behave in this way, or do we just want to gripe about it?" Human behavior is complicated, and analyzing it requires a bit of the old "psycho-babble" as you say. If the former, by all means, let us continue, if the latter, then I will shut up.

 

[Katodude]

Actually this is getting fun. Just about every morning when I take the dog out to the backyard, I then sit down with my coffee (and the dog) and we look at the pool and read a bunch of posts. The phenomenon plays out almost the same way often, and I even remember my early days where this was me. Not sure when I made the leap but it was a leap.

I went to the pool store to get my water tested, and here are their numbers, now what do I do. No I don’t have a test kit. I just spend $60K renovating my pool, I dont want to spend $70 on a test kit the pool store does it for free. Fine, I will be the k2006(not C) from Amazon because its $40 instead of $70 and I get free shipping.

Then once they get over the hump they become the “Chlorine concerned”. Chlorine is dangerous, its a poison, I dont want too much in my pool. My wife does not like the smell and says her skin reacts to it. So the next yo-yo is why do I get algae I follow your advice. My CYA is 50 and most of the time my FC is at 4 (which is the minimum) and it only drops down to 1 or 2 a couple of times a week. But I still get algae?

So how do you get people past this two very big points of inertia?

 

[Snoobug]

My pool is still being built but yeah I didn't want to spend a ton of money on getting a pool and then be embarassed by having a green pool. Also, maybe you guys don't hear this as much because pools are more popular where you are but I hear all the time, "pools are a lot of work/maintenance". Usually from people who have never had or maintained a pool. I was lucky and grew up with a pool so I have a pretty good idea about things.

I am pretty excited to put into action all the things I've learned here. Also I can't take credit but someone posted the list of things you just don't talk about... politics, religion and pool care.

It's awesome of people to help others when they ask! I plan to do what others have mentioned and reference TFP and send a link. Maybe say, I'm no pool expert but I follow this method and it has worked for me.

 

[jimim]

uggg this thread is turning into so much work to just help someone who won't change. lol i'll just continue to ignore my neighbors when they ask me something. lol

awesome thread. . . .

 

[zea3]

I think one of the biggest hurdles is really not that difficult; getting the reluctant to realize that the "free pool store testing" is not offered as good customer service, but it is a sales tool. A lure to lead you down the path that empties your wallet. Just like that "free dinner" the timeshare people offer to get you to listen to their sales pitch, then practically hold you captive until you agree to buy in.

Next you teach the reluctant how to ask questions. If there is a teenager running the tests, odds are they do not have years of experience caring for a pool. Ask them how long they have owned a pool, or how many pools they have cared for. You can also ask the adult running the test these same questions. Ask them how they learned about pool care if they don't have a pool. People working in pool stores are sales associates, they are trained to sell products, and the training comes from the companies that make those products. Ask if they have sales goals on certain products (you probably won't get an answer). Always ask in a nice, non-confrontational manner.

If the reluctant is an avid DIY person, its not too hard to get them to listen. If they are a die hard car enthusiast, or love building things, or anything else they may visit a specialize forum for, you tell them TFP is like that for pools, and they'll get it. They might not want to do it, but at least they will understand.

 

[mguzzy]

@mguzzy I think the question we must ask ourselves is "Do we really wish to understand why people behave in this way, or do we just want to gripe about it?" Human behavior is complicated, and analyzing it requires a bit of the old "psycho-babble" as you say. If the former, by all means, let us continue, if the latter, then I will shut up.

But isn't that true for many things in life. I'm not trying to poke fun at you...well maybe a little. Descartes at midnight!? I just had to drag my team of dead philosophers out of the mothballs for that one. There is a learning curve that has to be surmounted before people will "get it" for just about anything. Heck the whole self help/AA world has created reams of pamphlets on that very topic. For somethings people are open to learning the new stuff if they don't have a preconceived notion of what it is. When I present a new lineup formation and scheme to my soccer team, the kids are all ready learn it, that is what they are there for (oh, I coach soccer). But the TFP pool care world is fighting years of old outdated information in the pool care industry. And its so old that is almost mis-information. Pool stores have created a sales paradigm to take advantage of it. and unknowing pool owners go there to get advice and pay the fee. So when someone discovers this place it sounds like one of those too-good-to-be-true things.. The thing that rattled me when I first found this site, was not the chemistry protocols, it was the claim I should be shopping for pool chems in the baking aisle of the supermarket...What the HUH!.
What will change the masses to using this method? More education at all levels of the pool care biz: Not just the pool stores and the pool service guys, but also the standards committees, public health guidelines, the manufactures, and the whole pool industry. There was an interesting thread about poolgeek going to the pool standards guidelines meetings.. talk about chasing windmills in the bureaucracy.. but that's where it starts. The people that find this forum and embrace this concept, have already made the leap to understanding a better way of pool care. The others will always be the way they are. They won't bother to fix that noise in the car, because as long as the car starts, its not of concern, until is. SO in the broad context..of course I agree with you. And its this kind of discourse that makes this such a fun place to hang out.