Bonding upgraded pumps is too hard. What is the most powerful pump/filter that does not require bonding (and I hope will pump to my roof solar)

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"Bonding just a few items like the water and the pump actually increases the risk that a voltage gradient could be present resulting in a shock."

Can you explain that?
Water & pump bonded, gives electricity a path to go through. Doing nothing, water would potentially stay energized.

How is that worse/more dangerous?
 
cowboycasey said:
Do you have an upgraded wide mouth skimmer or is it just the Intex pipes coming out the side? If the stock intex it gets interesting and we will have to figure out a way to bond the water...
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yes its stock because kid is too short to fill it up to the top for a skimmer



CJadamec said:
In the case of this pool you can easily touch the ground and the the water at the same time. Bonding just a few items like the water and the pump actually increases the risk that a voltage gradient could be present resulting in a shock.

I would strongly suggest you do no bonding at all in this case unless you plan to fully bond everything.
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great advice and I appreciate the safety issues in my situation. I think I will end up not bonding anything in this pool if that is the case. It sounds like its an all or nothing ordeal.
 
borjis said:
Can you explain that?
Water & pump bonded, gives electricity a path to go through. Doing nothing, water would potentially stay energized.

How is that worse/more dangerous?
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Yes I am curious of this as well

Also FYI my city permit office says pools < 5000 gallons do not need to be bonded for their permits. Also they basically said it doesnt need to be bonded and contact manufacturer.


Also how about this for a thought experiment.....My pool sits on top of that thick pink insulation board (legs as well). I think this and other insulations protect from electrical shock. Could this be a nonissue because the insulation will protect where the lack of bonding does not? Food for thought....
 
AGP noob said:
Also how about this for a thought experiment.....My pool sits on top of that thick pink insulation board (legs as well). I think this and other insulations protect from electrical shock. Could this be a nonissue because the insulation will protect where the lack of bonding does not? Food for thought....
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The pool interior is already separated by the liner, even without the foam. It's actually the opposite that is desired - you want the water in contact with the ground. That's what the bonding would do.

Because that makes the water and ground at equal potential. With them separate, if there's a stray current that makes it into your pool, and you put your hand in the pool with a foot on the ground, you become the ground path and the current flows through you. If the water and ground are bonded together, then there is no flow of electricity from one to the other.

The goal of bonding is that if you touch two separate conductors within the pool vicinity, electricity can't flow from one to the other because they are at the same potential.
 
magiteck said:
Because that makes the water and ground at equal potential. With them separate, if there's a stray current that makes it into your pool, and you put your hand in the pool with a foot on the ground, you become the ground path and the current flows through you. If the water and ground are bonded together, then there is no flow of electricity from one to the other.
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I understand thank you!
So if I extend this insulation board and have a plastic ladder on top of the board that wont eliminate the risk but may help in that area. It would essentially be similar to how Casey gets in her pool with a deck and doesnt touch the ground.
 
borjis said:
"Bonding just a few items like the water and the pump actually increases the risk that a voltage gradient could be present resulting in a shock."

Can you explain that?
Water & pump bonded, gives electricity a path to go through. Doing nothing, water would potentially stay energized.

How is that worse/more dangerous?
Click to expand...

Magiteck explained it pretty well.

Partial bonding can actually make voltage gradients worse between bonded and un-bonded parts of the pool.

The ground itself can has sufficient voltage to shock you. Its not always the pump feeding electricity into the situation. There could be a shorted utility line on the other side of that fence charging the ground with voltage. When your wet feet touch the pavers and your hand goes in the pool you now complete the circuit leading back to your main electric panel thru the green ground wire (if only pump and water are bonded). No breaker or GFCI is going to help you there.

Bonding works in all directions all at the same time bring everything to the same voltage. Be it 0 bolts or 5000 volts if everything is the same you will never feel a shock.
 
OK so I found a thread about this bonding intex pumps issue (see link below)

Bonding an Intex Krystal Clear Sand Filter Pump

Hi Everyone! Has anyone attached a bonding lug to an "Intex Krystal Clear Sand Filter Pump for Above Ground Pools, 2800 GPH Pump Flow Rate, 110-120V with GFCI" ? If so, how? It's plastic as far as I can tell, but I don't believe it's double insulated and...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
Someone said "If a double insulated pump is used a wire from the bonding loop shall be run to the pump but not connected for future use in the event the pump motor is changed. Not a direct quote but that is in the paragraph in the code book referring to double insulated pumps."

So Intex pumps are double insulated and mention nothing about bonding
all upgraded pumps have big warnings MUST BE BONDED

All of these things together lead me to believe that an intex pool pump will

And to respond to an earlier post saying the bonding of the pump will only protect you from a shock if you touch the pump. There is another post saying "the bonding is not there to protect you from touching the pump and getting a shock. It is there to keep all areas around the pool to be at the same potential. A gfci breaker will protect you from shock."

I know my pool itself will still not be bonded and protected, but, because of the above, it sounds like a plastic double insulated intex pump will be safer to use with an unbonded pool than an upgraded pump that requires bonding.
Which sux for needing a strong pump to go up to the roof.
 
AGP noob said:
OK so I found a thread about this bonding intex pumps issue (see link below)

Bonding an Intex Krystal Clear Sand Filter Pump

Hi Everyone! Has anyone attached a bonding lug to an "Intex Krystal Clear Sand Filter Pump for Above Ground Pools, 2800 GPH Pump Flow Rate, 110-120V with GFCI" ? If so, how? It's plastic as far as I can tell, but I don't believe it's double insulated and...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
Someone said "If a double insulated pump is used a wire from the bonding loop shall be run to the pump but not connected for future use in the event the pump motor is changed. Not a direct quote but that is in the paragraph in the code book referring to double insulated pumps."

So Intex pumps are double insulated and mention nothing about bonding
all upgraded pumps have big warnings MUST BE BONDED

All of these things together lead me to believe that an intex pool pump will

And to respond to an earlier post saying the bonding of the pump will only protect you from a shock if you touch the pump. There is another post saying "the bonding is not there to protect you from touching the pump and getting a shock. It is there to keep all areas around the pool to be at the same potential. A gfci breaker will protect you from shock."

I know my pool itself will still not be bonded and protected, but, because of the above, it sounds like a plastic double insulated intex pump will be safer to use with an unbonded pool than an upgraded pump that requires bonding.
Which sux for needing a strong pump to go up to the roof.
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So seeing as this devolved in to a bonding lesson. The actual issue of will the Intex pump work for what you are trying to do got missed.

16 vertical feet to a pump is roughly an additional 7psi of pressure needed to get that high. I would think even that little Intex pump could do that. It might be a little slow but it should do it.

Here's the fun part though once the water get to the top of the panels and all the plumbing is full of water the head difference on the pump mostly goes away. Save for the restriction created by the panels themselves.

So as long as the pump can pump that high you can run your solar panels. It might not be ideal but heat is heat.

Get a long hose and hook it up to your pump and see if it can pump water up to your roof. You probably want a helper to turn the pump on and off for you though.
 

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Ok, a little late to the game and the bonding debate surrounding Intex has always intrigued me as I am one of those that have an Intex but also have upgraded my pump. I get Intex does not lend itself to be bonded due to the method of construction although I do see ways that it could be incorporated in to the products design.

So I guess my questions is if I drive a grounding rod into the ground and bond the pump and pool water to the rod (cowboycasey posted a link to one of the many available) would that be at least better than nothing? OR do I need to run the bonding wire of the pump and pool water to the grounding rods of the house itself and if so do they need to be separate runs?
 
bonding is not grounding and grounding is not bonding... They do almost exactly the same thing but one does not go with the other... never connect a bond to a ground rod at a pool or house as that is a ground... only connect bonded equipment, pool, dirt and water within 5 feet of the pool...
 
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CT-Steven said:
Ok, a little late to the game and the bonding debate surrounding Intex has always intrigued me as I am one of those that have an Intex but also have upgraded my pump. I get Intex does not lend itself to be bonded due to the method of construction although I do see ways that it could be incorporated in to the products design.

So I guess my questions is if I drive a grounding rod into the ground and bond the pump and pool water to the rod (cowboycasey posted a link to one of the many available) would that be at least better than nothing? OR do I need to run the bonding wire of the pump and pool water to the grounding rods of the house itself and if so do they need to be separate runs?
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Im a laymen but from the many things i have researched.
Intex pumps are double insulated and do not need to be bonded.
An upgraded pump should be bonded to the bonding grid and the water and anything metal. Theres a great video on youtube. It sounds like you do not need a grounding rod as that is separate from bonding and is what your GFI is for.
It also sounds like you either need to do all or nothing with bonding. Partial bonding (from what previous posters say) can make things worse.
 
Ok, I am slowly getting this... So would connecting the pool water with the product you listed and say just connect it to the bonding lug on the pump at least provide some sort of safety? From what I am understanding all I am trying to do is interlink all the metal pieces with no other external connections being made to that loop. The issue is again Intex and not being able to bond the pool structure itself...
 
AGP noob said:
Ill update the thread to show how well it works or not

Ill get that 16 inch 0.75 HP intex sand filter/pump. Looks like thats the most powerful one not requiring bonding
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Keep us posted...

One thing I want to point out regarding this statement. It is not an individual piece of equipment that requires bonding or not .. it is your WHOLE pool. Bonding is tying together all the bits and pieces of your pool so they don't act like a big battery. You have changed the basic lay out of your WHOLE pool system by adding a solar panels and choosing a different pump. That is no longer within the specs of the original manufacturer that did not "require" bonding (and who knows, in some environments, maybe bonding is needed for that basic out-of-the-box layout). You are missing the forest for the trees.. and if I may extend that analogy, by adding more trees to your forest you need to consider the ecosystem as a whole.. not just one bug on one branch on one tree.

At least do this.. set everything up and then do some basic tests with a multi-meter to see if there are potentials between the different components. That would be a real world evaluation of your setup. Perhaps you will have nothing to worry about perhaps not. But be aware of the issue and understand the concept is all I am saying.
 
mguzzy said:
. It is not an individual piece of equipment that requires bonding or not .. it is your WHOLE pool. Bonding is tying together all the bits and pieces of your pool so they don't act like a big battery. You have changed the basic lay out of your WHOLE pool system by adding a solar panels and choosing a different pump
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Yes I agree with this however. In the situation where its too cost prohibitive to bond everything correctly. Wouldnt it be safer to have a pool pump that does not require bonding rather than an upgraded pump that is made of metal, not double insulated, and has warnings MUST BE BONDED.?


mguzzy said:
At least do this.. set everything up and then do some basic tests with a multi-meter to see if there are potentials between the different components. That would be a real world evaluation of your setup
Click to expand...
This will be able to tell if there are potentials in that moment of time, but what about a year from now? Could potentials change over time with this upgraded pump due to who knows what. I really dont know the answer but the fact that the upgraded pumps are metal and bonding the pool is most important with metal worries me.
 
Your Intex pump is metal too. It just has some plastic covering the motor case to prevent you from touching it. There is still a metal shaft from the pump motor going into the water.

The Intex pumps really aren't significantly safer than a standard pump on a GFCI circuit. They found a loophole in the code and they use it to keep the lawyers off their backs. It doesn't make them safer.

Neither the pump manufacturer not the pool maker dictate if bonding is required. They have no say in the matter.

The National Electric Counsel or NEC writes the code book. Your local building official chooses to enforce the revision of the code book they want to.

This equipment is sold globally and installed in countries where there are not Bonding requirements whatsoever. They don't get a different pump than you do they just don't get the same stickers on the pump.
 
AGP noob said:
Yes I agree with this however. In the situation where its too cost prohibitive to bond everything correctly. Wouldnt it be safer to have a pool pump that does not require bonding rather than an upgraded pump that is made of metal, not double insulated, and has warnings MUST BE BONDED.?
Click to expand...
Whether and individual piece of equipment requires bonding or not is irrelevant.. it's the design of the WHOLE pool and ALL of its attached components that is the determining factor. Sure an individual components specs will play into it.. but bonding is a concept that applies to the WHOLE pie. I can't tell you how that individual piece will interact with the whole pool system. It may work or may not work. Bonding the whole thing together takes that question mark out of the picture. But its your call.

This will be able to tell if there are potentials in that moment of time, but what about a year from now? Could potentials change over time with this upgraded pump due to who knows what. I really dont know the answer but the fact that the upgraded pumps are metal and bonding the pool is most important with metal worries me.
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Correct, they are transient depending on what's going on in the pool AND the area around it. that is why you would want to test all the scenarios you could think of in the absence of a bonding grid.
 
CJadamec said:
Your Intex pump is metal too. It just has some plastic covering the motor case to prevent you from touching it. There is still a metal shaft from the pump motor going into the water.
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Yes but this metal is not exposed and double insulated and covered by plastic. Whereas an upgraded pump has exposed metal and not double insulated


CJadamec said:
They found a loophole in the code and they use it to keep the lawyers off their backs. It doesn't make them safer.
Click to expand...

from what I see and have seen discussed is that it is not a loophole, but the code States double insulated pumps are exempt from bonding.
this leads me to Think that this is safer in an unbonded system compared to a metal pump that requires bonding from both the manufacture and the NEC.

it does not appear to be a loophole. I am no expert so I appreciate the insight
 

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